VisorCentral.com - Who did you vote for?

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Posted by homer on 05-09-2001 04:49 PM:

quote:
but Bush won the heartland of America, which I truly feel represents what most people think.

No. That's what people in the heartland think.

Bush was a favorite of the rural community, gore was a favorite of the urban community.

quote:
My biggest concern over Algore was that he was a liar.

Are you saying Bush isn't a liar?

quote:
Also, his position on the environment is baseless. There is absolutely no basis for it in fact. Mostly based on worst case, what if scenarios.

At least he HAD a position on the environment.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by Toby on 05-09-2001 05:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
[...] I think you said the same thing I did.

No, I didn't.

quote:
Gore DID win the election.

No, he didn't. He won the popular vote. This is a very important distinction. The U.S. Presidential election is not like the election for the local city council. The popular vote is irrelevant on a national level. It only means something within the bounds of a given state. Beyond the bounds of that state it means nothing.

quote:
The election is when all of the people of this country cast a vote for the president.

No, it's not, in the case of U.S. Presidential elections.

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He won that. He won the election.

No, again, he won the popular vote. Not the same thing. The U.S. Presidential election is not determined by the sum total of U.S. citizens who vote for a slate of electors in the various states.

quote:
AFTER the election, the Electoral College meets to submit their choice for predident. Bush won that.

Yes, and this is, Constitutionally, the only 'election' that counts.

quote:
Gore won the election. Bush won the electoral college.

No, Gore won the popular vote. Bush won the majority of the electors, hence the election and the Presidency.

quote:
I do realize that the election is not what directly decides the presidency.

This is true in a sense, but not for the reasons you state. When people vote, they are casting a vote for a set number of electors in their state who have agreed to vote for a certain candidate in the Presidential election. That is all. Unless they have a 'faithless elector', they will get the exact same amount of say in the outcome of the Presidency as they currently have in the U.S. Congress. No more, no less.

Posted by broache on 05-09-2001 05:19 PM:

I guess it just came down to voting for the person that I identified with the most. Bush believes in small government and the right of people to choose their own path on their own. Gore seems to get mad any time we try to reduce people's reliance on the government. The environment is not much of a concern to me. The notion that we can destroy it is sheer vanity. It will be around long after we are all gone, just as it has been around long before we all came. As far as lying, at least Bush has admitted his past, taken his lumps and dealt with the consequences. He hasn't been anyone's victim.

Posted by Toby on 05-09-2001 05:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by broache
I guess it just came down to voting for the person that I identified with the most.

I agree, which is why I didn't vote for either of them.

quote:
Bush believes in small government and the right of people to choose their own path on their own.

This is simply not true. Bush believing in smaller government than Gore, and people having more right to choose their own path than Gore, I might grant you, but Bush's budget proposals still increase the size of government, just less so than Gore would have done.

Posted by homer on 05-09-2001 05:58 PM:

Toby:

I think we are arguing semantics.

I do agree with you. Gore won the popular vote, Bush won the electoral vote.

quote:
This is true in a sense, but not for the reasons you state. When people vote, they are casting a vote for a set number of electors in their state who have agreed to vote for a certain candidate in the Presidential election. That is all. Unless they have a 'faithless elector', they will get the exact same amount of say in the outcome of the Presidency as they currently have in the U.S. Congress. No more, no less.

I'm not sure what the electorates have to do with congress. From my understanding, we are NOT voting for a president, but rather and electorate. The electorate usually votes the way of the people, but by no means is required to.

I could be wrong on that.

Actually the whole electoral college thing seems vastly out-dated this day and age...as does the way we vote for one, and only one candidate.

We should have a scaled election. You take all of your candidates and rank them in order of your preference. This would avoid the whole 'a vote for so-and-so is a vote for someone else' argument.

I also think we should follow Russia and have a 'none of the above' candidate. If that candidate wins, we have a new election.

I also admire the Canadian system of having elections when people feel that there should be one...and then they only have a month or so to run the election.

Ah...politics and visors...they go so well together.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by Toby on 05-09-2001 06:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
I think we are arguing semantics.

Actually, we're arguing civics.

quote:
I do agree with you. Gore won the popular vote, Bush won the electoral vote.

Cool.

quote:
I'm not sure what the electorates have to do with congress.

The number of electors allocated to a state is the same number as its members in Congress (Senators and Representatives). The District of Columbia also has 3 electors despite the fact they they aren't a state.

quote:
From my understanding, we are NOT voting for a president, but rather and electorate.

You're voting for a number of electors equal to the number of Congressmen that your state has.

quote:
The electorate usually votes the way of the people, but by no means is required to.

This varies from state to state.

quote:
I could be wrong on that.

Well, you could always check the FAQ at the Electoral College's homepage.

quote:
Actually the whole electoral college thing seems vastly out-dated this day and age...as does the way we vote for one, and only one candidate.

It's no more outdated than the rest of our form of government. There are methods of changing that, though, if one can get enough support.

quote:
We should have a scaled election. You take all of your candidates and rank them in order of your preference. This would avoid the whole 'a vote for so-and-so is a vote for someone else' argument.

How so?

quote:
I also think we should follow Russia and have a 'none of the above' candidate. If that candidate wins, we have a new election.

Feel free to start a petition in your state.

quote:
I also admire the Canadian system of having elections when people feel that there should be one...and then they only have a month or so to run the election.

Umm...are you sure about that? I was under the impression that the elections were held when the ruling party decided to hold them (within a specified time frame), not the people.

quote:
Ah...politics and visors...they go so well together.

Well, I do have a fair amount of doc files in that vein on my Visor, so...

Posted by ernieba1 on 05-09-2001 08:03 PM:

Yes, Gore did not win the electoral vote. But who here thinks the electoral collage is stupid???

Also, this is the first time any of my posts have been on fire (more that 25 replies). Woohoo!

__________________
-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Posted by lennonhead on 05-09-2001 08:05 PM:

SHUT UP!

I'm sorry, but I am so incredibly sick of this. How anyone can justify Bush's win as being legitimate is beyond me, but he is President so lets just drop it.

__________________
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Posted by ernieba1 on 05-09-2001 08:11 PM:

Lennonhead's right. Now that he's president I'm looking out for grammatical errors, etc. like "strategery" to bash him with.

__________________
-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Posted by Gameboy70 on 05-09-2001 08:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ernieba1
A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. I wanted Gore to win.

Let's not forget the a vote for Bush is a vote for against Gore. I have an African-American friend who voted for Bush strictly because he was fed up with the Democratic Party "taking the black vote for granted." The only issue he seemed to agree with Bush on was abortion. I'd rather not choose between a candidate who does nothing about injustice and one who creates more injustice, so my black vote went to Nader. If the last couple of elections are any indication, the AFL-CIO might drop its unilateral endorsement of Democratic candidates. At any rate, Democrats are going to have to campaign on some other basis than "We're the good Republicans!" Hence, liberals opted for Nader.

Posted by Toby on 05-09-2001 08:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ernieba1
Yes, Gore did not win the electoral vote. But who here thinks the electoral collage is stupid???

Well, with such a lucid and cogent argument as that, I'd be shocked how anyone could dispute it.

But seriously, the electoral college isn't really the most stupid method to elect a President. As I said previously, it's just as valid as our current method of government. We do live in a representative republic, after all (well, those of us that live in the U.S. anyway).

Posted by Toby on 05-09-2001 08:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by lennonhead
SHUT UP!

This comes off as the last resort of one who realizes that rational arguments will not support one's position.

quote:
I'm sorry, but I am so incredibly sick of this. How anyone can justify Bush's win as being legitimate is beyond me, but he is President so lets just drop it.

Hey, I didn't want the guy in the White House either, but even the media-conducted recounts have been confirming that he won Florida, and hence the election. If you consider that illegitimate, then I suggest you start trying to get the Constitution changed to suit your preferred method of election.

Posted by Toby on 05-09-2001 08:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ernieba1
Lennonhead's right. Now that he's president I'm looking out for grammatical errors, etc. like "strategery" to bash him with.

Technically, those would be vocabulary errors.

Posted by ernieba1 on 05-10-2001 12:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
. . . but even the media-conducted recounts have been confirming that he won Florida, and hence the election. . .

What about those Palm Beach people who made a mistake on the butterfly ballot? Yeah, yeah, it's a stupid mistake, but it's obvious people made it.

Also, everybody, give me some slack! I'm a middle school student! I'm trying to post a message, not write a book! Yeah, I'm gonna make some tiepoes and spelling errors heer and their. (Please, don't reply noting how I spelled heer and their wrong )

__________________
-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Posted by Toby on 05-10-2001 02:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ernieba1
What about those Palm Beach people who made a mistake on the butterfly ballot?

What about them? They're the reason that the electoral college exists. If they can't follow simple instructions, then maybe their decision-making process on choosing their candidate was flawed as well.

quote:
Yeah, yeah, it's a stupid mistake, but it's obvious people made it.

Actually, it's not that obvious. I'm pretty sure that dead horse was beaten already, though.

quote:
Also, everybody, give me some slack! I'm a middle school student!

Good. You're getting a head start on most people then. Seems that these days most people don't learn to not point out the mistakes of others unless they want to have similar mistakes of their own pointed out.

Posted by homer on 05-10-2001 03:07 AM:

Toby's a tough debater.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by homer on 05-10-2001 03:08 AM:

or is it 'debator'?

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by Toby on 05-10-2001 11:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
or is it 'debator'?

'Debater', but just don't call me a master debater. ;�~~~

Posted by VTL on 05-10-2001 06:33 PM:

As I said earlier, Bush won, get over it. That obviously didn't work, so let me see if I can be a little more detailed.

1. The election was, essentially, a tie. Gore is commonly said to have won the popular vote. However, that is both irrelevant and misleading.

It's irrelevant because the constitution provides for election by the electoral college, and not by the popular vote, and has so provided for a couple of hundred years. The Constitution provides how presidents are "legitimately" elected.

It's misleading because Gore's margin of victory in the popular vote is razor-thin compared to the total popular vote - essentially within the margin of error. If we didn't have an electoral college, under the laws of most states, there would have been a mandatory recount for the whole country. And you thought Florida was bad.

2. Despite the closeness of the election, someone has to be President. You decide that based on the rules in place before the election was held - not based on what one side or the other thinks will benefit them after-the-fact. When those rules were fairly applied, Bush won.

Bush is the President. If you don't like it, don't vote for him next time, or better yet go out and work for some other candidate.

Posted by Tyrone Slothrop on 05-10-2001 07:08 PM:

It absolutely kills me that we have to deal with this numbskull* as president for the next 4 years, but Gore supporters like myself have to face the fact that there is only one person to blame for what happened: Al Gore. If Gore had run a halfway decent campaign nobody would have cared how many votes Ralph Nader got or who the heck Kathleen Harris is. If he had simply won his home state of Tennessee, Florida would have been irrelevant.

___________________
* "But I also made it clear to [Vladimir Putin] that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe."�George W. Bush, May 1, 2001

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