VisorCentral.com - Jeff Hawkins tries to clear up confusion

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show 20 posts from this thread on one page

VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Article Comments (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=17)
-- Jeff Hawkins tries to clear up confusion (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=20921)

Posted by VTL on 01-22-2002 05:53 AM:

Mr. Kessler's post, ladies and gentlemen, is the epitome of class.

Posted by Winchell on 01-22-2002 02:53 PM:

Seconded

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
Mr. Kessler's post, ladies and gentlemen, is the epitome of class.

They always are. The man is a scholar and a gentleman.

On an unrelated note, it would be nice if Handspring could sell their springboard technology to another PDA manufacturer, or put it in the public domain.

Posted by argent on 01-22-2002 11:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by flashk
and within 6 months or so the functionality of a lot of Springboards will be available either built-in or as an add-on CF, SD or Memory Stick device.

I find that unlikely in the extreme. The Springboard module was extremely easy to develop for: it's large, so you don't have to create custom plastics for most modules, it's got a well understood bus... the 68000 bus... and you don't have to write driver installation packages for desktop operating systems... the Springboard drivers stay with the Springboard.

So the Springboard was a natural for small companies and individuals to experiment with, and it's easy to manufacture in quantity using relatively inexpensive techniques.

If you don't have the Springboard any more, the next best option is Compact Flash type-1e. It's like a cross between CF and Springboard, with a CF interface and room for a "backpack" on the module. Unfortunately, only HP has a CF-1e slot on the Jornada 560 line. After that, the CF is OK, though you tend to end up with clumsy cards that can't be left in the handheld when you're not using them like you can with a Springboard GPS, phone module, or other device that you might use intermittently.

As for Memory Stick and Secure Digital, forget it. They have a far more complex interface than Compact Flash (let alone Springboard), and they're so small that you'll need to use expensive surface-mount multi-layer boards and a fragile "paddle". I don't see there ever being any significant number of interesting modules for them.

Companies like Mem-plug won't have the resources to get involved.

quote:
HS certainly changed the use of Palm devices a lot with the SpringBoard and now other companies are improving on it providing consumers with a wealth of new tiny SD, MemoryStick devices to replace the bulky SpringBoards.

DO you actually know of anything for SD other than memory that isn't vapor? This is like Compaq dropping Alpha: there really are no alternatives to replace them.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by dkessler on 01-22-2002 11:40 PM:

Re: Seconded

quote:
Originally posted by Winchell
On an unrelated note, it would be nice if Handspring could sell their springboard technology to another PDA manufacturer, or put it in the public domain.

I believe that Handspring already permits use of the Springboard technology by other vendors without any licensing fees. If I recall correctly, the only restrictions are requirements on the proper use of logos and trademarks. The problem is that the Springboard interface is very tightly coupled to the Dragonball CPU (both electrically and in terms of the driver software on the modules) so who, besides Handspring, would want it?

__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Posted by Toby on 01-22-2002 11:44 PM:

Re: Re: Seconded

quote:
Originally posted by dkessler
I believe that Handspring already permits use of the Springboard technology by other vendors without any licensing fees. [...]

I'm pretty sure that's only on the client/adapter side, isn't it?

Posted by argent on 01-22-2002 11:49 PM:

Re: ... it's just a (brand) name...

quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Smith
As others have pointed out, newer technologies that have made the Springboard form factor less successful than imagined at its conception.

To me the Springboard has been many many times more successful than I anticipated. Yes, there hasn't been an explosion of e-books using it, but I never expected that. What I expected was that you'd end up with the same kinds of things you get in cheap CF cards: modems, cellphone serial adapters, network adapters, GPS, and that's about it. Maybe a processor accelerator down the line so you could upgrade to ARM or whatever, but that's it.

The network cards never came out, but that seems to be due to shortcomings in PalmOS (there's a Xircom WiFi module, but it's a serial port style hack that could have been built as a sled instead).

Instead you have cameras, video adapters, memory card adapters, and frivolous things like the MP3 players, OmniRemote, and buzzers and flashing lights... weird stuff, wonderful stuff. What would they have to have come up with for *you* to consider them acceptable? Tricorder? Phaser? Holoprojector?

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by argent on 01-23-2002 12:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by wshwe
HandSpring shouldn't introduce a new color Visor. The reason is that they simply can't make a profit selling Visors. So far, HandSpring has never turned a profit. If HandSpring can't sell the Treo at a profit, it'll get bought out or go bankrupt.

Then Handspring will get bought out or go bankrupt. The Treo is being introduced into an economy that's barely into recovery if you're an optimist, and with no significant features to differentiate it from systems already in the market. The Kyocera is slimmer, only slightly longer, and looks and works just like a slightly bulkier Nokia 5000/6000 unit... until you flip the buttons down to expose the PalmOS interface. I haven't seen the Samsung but according to the specs it has a similar screen to the Palm m505, except it's 50% larger because of the soft graffiti area.

And the Treo isn't really competing with either of them: it's a GSM phone, which means it's targeted at Europe and Asia, not the US with its predominant TDMA/CDMA networks. I drive to New Orleans on occasion... coverage there is still listed as "future", and there's not even planned coverage along I-10.

No, the Treo's competition is the Nokia Communicator... and the new Communicator has an ARM CPU, more memory, a 640x200 color screen, a multitasking OS with real TCP/IP support, and memory expansion cards. Even the older Communicator is at least a match for any Dragonball Palm and still has that 640x200 screen, even if it's mono.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by yardie on 01-23-2002 10:41 AM:

Re: SUCKS!

This is nonsense. The companies that originally started around the Springboard slots are either dead or have/will venture into other areas. E.gs of Dead - GeoDiscovery e.gs of other areas - Innogear, Good Technologies. The truth is there is no money to be had in springboard slots. If Visors users were buying springboards like how they buy printers for the desktops then the Springboard economy would be much better. MOst Visor users dont even have any modules whatsoever.

quote:
Originally posted by KennBlue
Please think about all the companies who have invested in making their company around the SP slot! In fact - I would say if one of these companies had deep pockets this could be a very good lawsuit! They have NOT supported their developers - if fact, they have backstabed them

Posted by yardie on 01-23-2002 10:52 AM:

Hmmm

I find that the Kyocera is significantly bulkier than teh Treo. The Treo is certainly a lot easier to carry around. I am not sure about the Kyocera being thinner. If my memory serves me correctly, the Treo is thinner than the Kyocera. I have played with both.

quote:
Originally posted by argent
Then Handspring will get bought out or go bankrupt. The Treo is being introduced into an economy that's barely into recovery if you're an optimist, and with no significant features to differentiate it from systems already in the market. The Kyocera is slimmer, only slightly longer, and looks and works just like a slightly bulkier Nokia 5000/6000 unit...

Posted by argent on 01-23-2002 12:10 PM:

Re: Hmmm

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I find that the Kyocera is significantly bulkier than teh Treo. The Treo is certainly a lot easier to carry around. I am not sure about the Kyocera being thinner. If my memory serves me correctly, the Treo is thinner than the Kyocera. I have played with both.

The Treo is thinner, front to back. The Kyocera is narrower, side to side.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by Rusty Smith on 01-23-2002 01:25 PM:

Re: Re: ... it's just a (brand) name...

quote:
Originally posted by argent
What would they have to have come up with for *you* to consider them acceptable?

Hmmm. I always thought Springboards were more than just "acceptable." At introduction, the concept was very sweet icing on the "cake" of an affordable device.

I have a Memplug, and love it. I've looked closely at other Springboards, particularly the MP3 player modules - but in the end decided the value per $ wasn't high enough for my cheapskate blood. Instead, I spent less money, and got a RioVolt CD player. Portability just hasn't been a factor in music for me - storage capacity is. I would love to see a module (Bluetooth or otherwise...) that would let me walk into the house, and have my Visor automatically update with my wife's honey-do list, central calendar and home finances on a home PC / home server. Alas, through no fault of HS or Springboard technology, the PC side just doesn't exist yet.

I tried to get my wife to look at modules that would silent alarm or record voice memo's -- things that seemingly would help her at work - but she tries to stay clear of my amateur geek tendencies!

For me to consider the Springboard to be *successful* in a way that approaches what I felt was the promise, other device makers would have had to adopt the Springboard on the PalmOS device side - and for reasons posted by you and Mr. Kessler, that just wasn't going to happen for technical reasons, never mind the market forces. To Handspring's credit, it did a great job of trying to introduce a new standard to this market. I bought into it, although not as much as many VC readers did - but not enough of the right kind of customers did to keep it alive for more than this good run. The industry and the market have learned from it - I hope in some way, Handspring and many of the Springboard developers benefit from it.

It's a tough technology market out there, and I very much appreciate the companies that take risks and push the technologies where we are all begging for them to go. I reward with purchases the one's that satisfy my needs. But I don't need the Visor brand name, or even a Springboard form factor for expansion, to keep me a happy PDA / Communicator consumer and user. And, I *hope* Handspring finds ways to remain a strong player in the market, and that I can reward them with future purchases, and influence more friends and co-workers to go with Handspring devices.

Posted by argent on 01-23-2002 03:05 PM:

Re: Re: Re: ... it's just a (brand) name...

quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Smith
I have a Memplug, and love it.

Sounds like you might have been better off with a TRGPro. I thought hard about getting one instead, myself.

[...]

Everyone brings up the MP3 modules as the "important" Springboards. I don't see that, myself. As you say, a separate MP3 player is more versatile... in fact I have a Pocket PC now and I make almost no use of its MP3 playing capabilities.

I can't point to any specific Springboard that's exceptionally important, and I don't expect to. It's the variety that's key. It's possible to build a Springboard module with no more than hobbyist-level facilities, and the result has been a massive outpouring of units.

quote:
I would love to see a module (Bluetooth or otherwise...) that would let me walk into the house, and have my Visor automatically update with my wife's honey-do list, central calendar and home finances on a home PC / home server.

And why can't you do that? The hardware, the necessary Springboard modules exist: both WiFi and Bluetooth. You would need to initiate a network hotsync, and you can always map that to a button. Scripting the server side using pilot-link or coldsync should be a small matter of programming. What's stopping you?

quote:
Alas, through no fault of HS or Springboard technology, the PC side just doesn't exist yet.

Well, *my* PC has no problem doing specialised hotsyncs. Of course I'm running a server operating system on mine.

quote:
For me to consider the Springboard to be *successful* in a way that approaches what I felt was the promise, other device makers would have had to adopt the Springboard on the PalmOS device side - and for reasons posted by you and Mr. Kessler, that just wasn't going to happen for technical reasons, never mind the market forces.

I must have missed something here. I don't know any technical reasons preventing other companies from adopting the Springboard slot. It's a very simple interface, and the latest Dragonball processors have plenty of spare address busses. But I think there you set the standards too high. The political problems are overwhelming, it's far too high a bar to expect a company like Handspring to leap. If the investors expected that to happen, well, I think that explains the dotcom meltdown quite well enough.

quote:
To Handspring's credit, it did a great job of trying to introduce a new standard to this market.

Try? They did? Not only that, but it's been the most successful expansion slot out there. And the fact that only one vendor supported it, well, there's three main vendors and they each have a different preferred expansion slot: Sony/Memory Stick, Palm/Secure Digital, and Handspring/Springboard. The Springboard is as much a standard as either of the others.

quote:
I bought into it, although not as much as many VC readers did - but not enough of the right kind of customers did to keep it alive for more than this good run.

What makes you say that? There's been no slacking off in the variety of new modules, and while some companies have dropped out others have come up with multiple products, and second and second generation models of their original design. You don't *do* that if it's not making money.

Yes, things are tough *right now*, but that doesn't mean you want to cut your only product line off at the knees. Rather, that makes it a bad time to stage a big new release.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by Toby on 01-23-2002 03:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by argent
[...] I drive to New Orleans on occasion... coverage there is still listed as "future", and there's not even planned coverage along I-10. [...]

IIRC, Voicestream does have agents in NOLA, but I'm really not sure of their coverage (spotty at best I'd imagine). Cingular and AT&T are in the process of converting their TDMA networks to GSM, but that won't make a difference since they'll be going to an 800MHz flavor to preserve their existing infrastructure.

Posted by Toby on 01-23-2002 04:01 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: ... it's just a (brand) name...

quote:
Originally posted by argent
[...] Sounds like you might have been better off with a TRGPro. I thought hard about getting one instead, myself.
[...]

Me too, except that I figured the potential uses of the springboard slot were higher, and that since Xircom was developing a wired springboard for the Visor anyway... the biggest advantage I saw on its side was moot. Unfortunately, although the CF memory adapter materialized quickly enough, the wired ethernet never did. So, now I'm basically in holding pattern mode to see if the rumored color Handera is real. If by around CeBit there isn't one, then a 330 it will be for me.

Posted by Dick O. Stone on 02-08-2002 06:57 AM:

Wall Street reaction

Getting back to the original topic....
Note that as of Feb. 8, 2002 (about 3 weeks after the CEO's comment about exiting the organizer market), Handspring's stock price is about half of what it was when she made the comment. Seems like she should have waited until Treo was an obvious success before saying that the Visor will be phased out.

Posted by yardie on 02-10-2002 09:08 AM:

Re: Wall Street reaction

Is it safe to assume that you are a stockholder? Look at Palm Inc shares. They intriduced a new PDA thats apparently selling well (plus rumors for more in the pipeline) and their stock is still the pits.

quote:
Originally posted by Dick O. Stone
Getting back to the original topic....
Note that as of Feb. 8, 2002 (about 3 weeks after the CEO's comment about exiting the organizer market), Handspring's stock price is about half of what it was when she made the comment. Seems like she should have waited until Treo was an obvious success before saying that the Visor will be phased out.

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:01 AM.

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show 20 posts from this thread on one page