VisorCentral.com - Prism replacement Treo 90 has arrived

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Article Comments (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=17)
-- Prism replacement Treo 90 has arrived (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=23568)

Posted by ragamuffinn on 05-29-2002 07:49 AM:

Re: Handspring: Why have you forsaken us?

quote:
Originally posted by dpdamour
My Prism always has a wireless module in it. When I am on the road I have the Minstrel-S wireless modem. Where available, I have the Xircom 802.11b to access WI-FI.

A Minstrel AND a Xircom wi-fi??? You're insane!

I just got a Red-M blade...now I'm just waiting for my bluetooth usb adapter for my desktop. (Poor Treo 90--can't do bluetooth!)

Posted by PipSqueak on 05-29-2002 09:01 AM:

yeesh!

Why is handspring so inconsistent? The products they are making don't use springboard modules anymore, the reason I bought a visor deluxe is because I believed the expandability of the SB.

I haven't bought any SBs yet... I am planning to get a minijam but I'm having doubts whether it will be worth it to get something that probably won't be supported in the future. Handspring sez the visor product line will still be around, but they don't seem to be "walking the talk". If they are focusing on making treo communicators now... won't the SB developers stop producing SBs for visor users?

Posted by HindeR on 05-29-2002 02:39 PM:

Recommendations

On Handspring's recommendations page (http://www.handspring.com/recommendations/index.jhtml) they attempt to break us down to six different types of users. Guess what, not one of them recommends a Prism. The six types use three neo's, two 90's, and a pro. Handspring has no love for the Prism. Like it or not, the 90 appears to be all they will offer as an upgrade. Bummer.

Posted by Toby on 05-29-2002 03:35 PM:

Re: Handspring: Why have you forsaken us?

quote:
Originally posted by dpdamour
If the Treo 90 is Handspring's vision of the future then the genius that created Handspring and the Springboard has been infected by "dot bomb" thinking (aka: shortsightedness).

No, actually, hanging onto the springboard would be shortsighted at this point. Its appeal was because it basically brought the Dragonball bus out to a port where developers could access it and extend the functionality of the device. Even if they came up with a Springboard II which would do the same with ARM, the two specs wouldn't be compatible.

quote:
The hallmark of Handspring was the expandability of the Visor PDAs. It is something that the other Palm OS PDAs still have not ventured to try. [...]

Except for Handera, and they've got a format which should translate to ARM just fine.

Posted by argent on 05-29-2002 05:05 PM:

Re: Re: Handspring: Why have you forsaken us?

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Its appeal was because it basically brought the Dragonball bus out to a port where developers could access it and extend the functionality of the device. Even if they came up with a Springboard II which would do the same with ARM, the two specs wouldn't be compatible.

You do know, of course, that the compact flash interface is little more than the intel 8088 8-bit bus brought out to a port, right? It's obviously impossible to keep on using that interface on 32-bit machines, or non-x86 processors like the ARM or Dragonball...

Not to mention that the Springboard pinout is almost the same as the PCMCIA pinout... modifying a PCMCIA -CF adapter to a Springboard-CF adapter involved swapping 2 pairs of pins, that's all...

The only thing Handspring would need to keep the current Springboard interface on the ARM is a 68000 emulator and new libraries. And, look at that... Palm's providing the emulator in OS 5!

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC<br>
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by Toby on 05-29-2002 05:49 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Handspring: Why have you forsaken us?

quote:
Originally posted by argent
You do know, of course, that the compact flash interface is little more than the intel 8088 8-bit bus brought out to a port, right? It's obviously impossible to keep on using that interface on 32-bit machines, or non-x86 processors like the ARM or Dragonball...

OK, I obviously didn't get that across right. I wasn't saying that it would be impossible to port the springboard. I'm just dubious that Handspring has the motivation to do it at this point (especially when it comes to devoting R&D dollars away from their Treos). Most of the legwork with CF on ARM would seem to be done already. I'd be willing to bet that's why we haven't seen Springboard and OS4 on a Handspring yet (notice how the first one with OS4 simply copycats Palm's config). They probably didn't have (or didn't want to expend) the resources to devote to coding the SB libraries for the new OS.

quote:
Not to mention that the Springboard pinout is almost the same as the PCMCIA pinout... modifying a PCMCIA -CF adapter to a Springboard-CF adapter involved swapping 2 pairs of pins, that's all...

And _you_ do know, of course, that it's not quite that simple. That was all WRT the relatively simple task of using CF _memory_. CF expansion is another kettle of fish which would have required at the very least some power-stepping and some additional logic chips.

quote:
The only thing Handspring would need to keep the current Springboard interface on the ARM is a 68000 emulator and new libraries. And, look at that... Palm's providing the emulator in OS 5!

If they didn't spend time porting the libraries to OS 4, do you think they're going to spend time on OS 5 (although theoretically, doing it for one would have done it for the other for the very reasons you mention)?

Posted by argent on 05-29-2002 06:36 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Handspring: Why have you forsaken us?

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
OK, I obviously didn't get that across right. I wasn't saying that it would be impossible to port the springboard. I'm just dubious that Handspring has the motivation to do it at this point.

Well, that's obvious. It's been obvious for months that they have no motivation to do anything interesting with handhelds any more... they want to be competing in the cellphone business with Nokia and the other big boys who will proceed to eat their lunch.

The point I'm making is that the ARM processor and OS/4/5 are excuses for not doing something they don't want to do, not the motivation. It's like the promised OS upgrades: the lack of flash ROM is the excuse for not doing the upgrades... if they wanted to they could easily upgrade the OS in RAM, the way Palm did before the Palm III, the way Atari did on the Atari ST, the way Commodore did on the Amiga 3000... an OS is just software, it'll run out of RAM just fine. The OS itself is only about 400K, so you could even upgrade a 2M visor that way...

I don't see any reason to invent excuses for Handspring here. They have a plan, they're making decisions based on that plan, and that plan involves using the Visor as a JATO unit to get market share and then be abandoned. We know it, they've said it often enough, if their plan was to keep the Visor alive, they could do that as well... there's no technical problems with anything in their design that would prevent it.

I'm not saying they don't have a right to follow this plan or anything, either. It's just that *at the same time* you have to realise that the Visor and Treo are unrelated product lines that might as well be from different companies, and looking at the Treo 90 as a "replacement" for any Visor model is, well, seriously missing the boat.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC<br>
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by Hoser_back_home on 05-29-2002 08:34 PM:

would anybody like to make a slim CF card module for the edge connector for me? If i could use a CF or SD card on my edge, life would be complete!

I'm not too upset by the disappearance of the Springboard slot. Things change...these aren't "life altering" purchases which will drastically change your lifestyle if you had to throw it away and buy a new one.

my opinion.

__________________
Ever feel like the train left while you were busy reading the paper?

Stealth-Mod.

Posted by HindeR on 05-29-2002 08:52 PM:

Things change...

quote:
Originally posted by Hoser_back_home
Things change...these aren't "life altering" purchases which will drastically change your lifestyle if you had to throw it away and buy a new one.

I suppose this is not too very different from investing a lot of money in 8-track tapes and finding out that new cars don't have stereo's that play them. But you know what? If all my favorite music was on 8-tracks, I would install an 8-track player in my new car. It is a huge waste of money to buy CD versions of all the same music. I view the functionality of my SB modules the same way. I don't want to have to replace my Eyemodule2, Presenter-to-Go, Thinmodem Plus, FlashAdapter, Backup and memory modules, travel charger, serial and USB cables, etc., etc. I invested a lot in Handspring's vision. Now they've gone and gotten Lazik on me.

Posted by dampeoples on 05-29-2002 10:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn
It isn't that we don't want a Treo as much as it is that we want Handspring to keep the Visor line current. We have springboard modules that are still very young and perfectly functional. You try spending several hundred dollars in springboards and then celebrate when it starts looking like your expansion format is being abandoned by the company. Then you can tell us more about why you want a Treo.

The buzz is that wireless is everything. This is true and completely false at the same time. As if to beg the question, the buzz is true because wireless is the buzz. However, wireless is still not affordable, nor are there trustworthy and widespread standards in place for adoption. Furthermore, non-wireless handhelds still have perfectly admirable uses, even though the industry eggheads say they don't. (Try asking my mom who just got a new Visor Deluxe for mother's day, or my sister who bought one the day after (after she heard how cheap they are...) Those "obsolete" handhelds are revolutionizing the way they keep their personal information. Yes, these are just anecdotes, but they demonstrate that there are people who are only now being introduced to good, basic PDAs who can't even fathom the need for wireless yet.)

The Treo 90, though non-wireless, is expandable. Yet, its expansion media is flawed. I would never buy into an expansion format that doesn't already promise I/O. The springboard does. Handspring says they may include I/O via firmware updates, but that's still vaporware....and vaporware has a tendency to dissipate so thinly that you can't even find a relevant press release.

Simply put, the springboard is a great expansion format and it has a sizeable user base. That is why we'd rather have a Visor.

i did buy a visor, three of them.
i did buy springboads, four or five of them.
They did get abandoned. Sucks to be me.

Posted by dampeoples on 05-29-2002 10:54 PM:

Re: Things change...

quote:
Originally posted by HindeR

I suppose this is not too very different from investing a lot of money in 8-track tapes and finding out that new cars don't have stereo's that play them. But you know what? If all my favorite music was on 8-tracks, I would install an 8-track player in my new car. It is a huge waste of money to buy CD versions of all the same music. I view the functionality of my SB modules the same way. I don't want to have to replace my Eyemodule2, Presenter-to-Go, Thinmodem Plus, FlashAdapter, Backup and memory modules, travel charger, serial and USB cables, etc., etc. I invested a lot in Handspring's vision. Now they've gone and gotten Lazik on me.

Ok, so explain to me why you need a new piece if these SB's are all working for you? They discontinued them?
You can still get an 8-track player at the Flea market too. For cheap.

Posted by ragamuffinn on 05-29-2002 11:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dampeoples
i did buy a visor, three of them.
i did buy springboads, four or five of them.
They did get abandoned. Sucks to be me.

So your prompt for more explanation of our dislike for the Treo was genuine? If so, I apologize. But if not, the tone of your sentiments makes no sense and is uncalled for. You want to deride the people who are dealing with the same problem that you had? What are you getting at?

Posted by HindeR on 05-29-2002 11:33 PM:

I don't want to beat the 8-track analogy to death so I'll drop it here. Besides, I am not old enough to have owned them anyways.

Yes the SB modules are still working, and yes the new Prism (old one's digitizer died) is working, but I really wish it had more onboard memory, higher resolution, and was almost half it's weight.

Waaaaaa!, somebody call a Waaaaabulence. I'll need one because Handspring does not care about me and my wants. I am not a joe-average-consumer. Neither is anyone reading these discussion boards. Face it. We are the high-tech, gadget-guru, cutting-edge few who care enough about the details to come to a place like this. Handspring does not care about us. We don't have a large enough impact on their bottom line. Sorry, I'll stop rambling now.

Posted by dampeoples on 05-29-2002 11:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn
What are you getting at?

I am getting at:
The Visor's are no more, no amount of pleading will bring them back AND if the Treo is not for you, then fine. Not you specifically, but why do people insist on writing smack about something they do not care for? Leave it alone. Buy a Handera or something, hell, even get a Sony or a Palm if they do it for you.

Posted by dampeoples on 05-29-2002 11:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HindeR
I don't want to beat the 8-track analogy to death so I'll drop it here. Besides, I am not old enough to have owned them anyways.

Yes the SB modules are still working, and yes the new Prism (old one's digitizer died) is working, but I really wish it had more onboard memory, higher resolution, and was almost half it's weight.

Waaaaaa!, somebody call a Waaaaabulence. I'll need one because Handspring does not care about me and my wants. I am not a joe-average-consumer. Neither is anyone reading these discussion boards. Face it. We are the high-tech, gadget-guru, cutting-edge few who care enough about the details to come to a place like this. Handspring does not care about us. We don't have a large enough impact on their bottom line. Sorry, I'll stop rambling now.

There, problem solved.

Posted by HindeR on 05-29-2002 11:59 PM:

Problem Solved?

quote:
Originally posted by dampeoples

There, problem solved.

Thank you Mr. Moderator. Unlike some people, I like to read about peole's satisfaction with products AND their disappointment. There are apparrently a few people here who are disappointed with HS's move toward non-visor organizers and we want to talk smack about it. This is working for me. If not for you, there are other threads going on right now. Problem solved?

Posted by zieak on 05-30-2002 12:05 AM:

It is sad. Looks like I may just have to buy something else if/when I need to upgrade. For now I'll stick with my Prism, stowaway, eyemodule, modem, soundsgood, presenter, backup, matchbook drive... I won't buy a Treo until I can put a springboard into it.

Posted by argent on 05-30-2002 12:06 AM:

Cyberpunk!

quote:
Originally posted by dampeoples
why do people insist on writing smack about something they do not care for?

Because we must warn the world that the father of Lies has corrupted Handspring. Carefully designed fractal symbols from a time-travelling nanotechnological nightmare have been beaming themselves into all our brains from our Treos. Behind Hawkins' movie-star visage lives an ancient evil that has returned from the far future to lay the seed of its own growth in our minds and computers. This worm in the core of the computer industry has made its move at last, wriggling from its horrid hole to set in motion the events that will inevitably, long after the sun has grown cold, lead to its rebirth in the horrid galactic wars of the 14th Aeon.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC<br>
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by dampeoples on 05-30-2002 12:08 AM:

Re: Problem Solved?

quote:
Originally posted by HindeR

Thank you Mr. Moderator. Unlike some people, I like to read about peole's satisfaction with products AND their disappointment. There are apparrently a few people here who are disappointed with HS's move toward non-visor organizers and we want to talk smack about it. This is working for me. If not for you, there are other threads going on right now. Problem solved?

The people dissapointed knew this was coming, why cry about it now?

Posted by dampeoples on 05-30-2002 12:10 AM:

Re: Cyberpunk!

quote:
Originally posted by argent
Because we must warn the world that the father of Lies has corrupted Handspring. Carefully designed fractal symbols from a time-travelling nanotechnological nightmare have been beaming themselves into all our brains from our Treos. Behind Hawkins' movie-star visage lives an ancient evil that has returned from the far future to lay the seed of its own growth in our minds and computers. This worm in the core of the computer industry has made its move at last, wriggling from its horrid hole to set in motion the events that will inevitably, long after the sun has grown cold, lead to its rebirth in the horrid galactic wars of the 14th Aeon.

Where did they lie? Correct me if I am wrong, but they did say they were getting out of the traditional organizer business. To them, a Visor with a Springboard slot is traditional. A Treo is not.

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