VisorCentral.com - Very sad day at school

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Posted by D ev R ay 4Real on 09-18-2001 05:57 AM:

I really doubt there will be any press on this, but there may be, who knows? If any shows up i'll alert you right away.

I attend the Enumclaw School District, which is in a very small rural community in western washington. Even though we are so small we have tons of money, last year Bill Gates gave our disrict 3 million dollars as a grant.

I actually agree with you Homer; I think those in charge made a very poor decision on this one. The best choice in my opinion wouldve been a 5 day suspension, (more for their own good because the entire student body was so angry with them today if they wouldve shown up at school they wouldve been injured) then when they return some counseling from the school conselours.

__________________
God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.

Posted by homer on 09-18-2001 06:06 AM:

quote:
Serves them right to be expelled! The school is not the place for persons to be writing inappropriate language, a poor decision on their part and unfortunate consequences for their "choice" of actions.

We're expelling students because they have different opinions than the majority?

I should ask if this was a private and/or religious school vs. a public school.

I've never heard of students being expelled for inappropriate language.

My heart goes out to those two students. I wish them well.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by george_vc on 09-18-2001 06:23 AM:

Probably the children were not complying with school policies. I don't think this is a "difference of opinion" issue. I'm sure there are many journalism opportunities for those persons to exercise their right to express there "opinion". I believe that the purpose of the gesture at hand (probably school sponsored) was to express love and caring toward those that have lost so deeply. Writing F*** whatever on the American Flag hardly accomplishes such a cause, destroys the message to the recipient and is inappropriate. It is certainly inappropriate behavior for the school policies at best to write explatives as part of a school project. I would also expect that within this school it is inappropriate for them to go into the bathroom and write on the wall these writings. I believe that these persons made a "choice" to make such a statement in an inappropriate manner, in an inappropriate place and by exercizing their "choices" they are paying the consequences of their choices. Some people make better choices in life than others.

Posted by VTL on 09-18-2001 06:46 AM:

While I'm not sure expelling them was called for, I do think they should have been disciplined.

Sure, folks have the right to free speech in this country. That includes the right to burn the flag, if that's what floats your boat, according to the Supreme Court.

However, what these kids did goes beyond free speech. It's no different than vandalism. As I understand it, Dev and his friends were putting something together with a particular, positive purpose in mind. These punks ruined it. It's no different than someone going up to you in art class and destroying your sculpture, painting, whatever, because they wanted to "express" themselves.

This is particularly true given the circumstances. Free speech is a right, but I think it also imposes certain duties on all of us - not legal duties, but ones worthy of mention. First and foremost is a duty to excercise the right in a fashion that is productive, not destructive for the heck of it.

As an aside, I'm shocked, shocked that someone reacted violently to this behavior. When I was in High School I would have kicked the crap out of these kids myself, with great joy. Now that I'm old and mature I of course deplore such violence, but at the time I'm sure I would have thought it was a great idea.

Posted by hog on 09-18-2001 07:00 AM:

messed-up kids

I think we all remember these types of kids from our highschool days. There are usually many reasons they are angry. They are usually the kids who don't do well in classes, not involved in any extracurricular activities including sports, without really any direction to their lives. They usually don't have many friends and the friends that they do have tend to be of a similar makeup as themselves. Maybe they are abused at home by alcoholic parents, or were corn-holed by a perverted uncle when young. Whatever the reason, most of these types end up not making a positive contribution to society. I bet they really could care less that they were expelled from their school. I say we all go over to their homes and physically assault them some more.

Posted by homer on 09-18-2001 07:44 AM:

quote:
It's no different than someone going up to you in art class and destroying your sculpture, painting, whatever, because they wanted to "express" themselves.

Well, it's different in that this was a public piece. People were invited to sign it. (unless I misinterpreted the project.) Should these kids have written what they did? Certainly not. My complaint is that the reaction was as harsh and uncalled for as the initial violation. This is how wars start. We react without thinking.

quote:
As an aside, I'm shocked, shocked that someone reacted violently to this behavior. When I was in High School I would have kicked the crap out of these kids myself, with great joy. Now that I'm old and mature I of course deplore such violence, but at the time I'm sure I would have thought it was a great idea.

Right. I can forgive adolescence. A person isn't necessarily a fully-rational being at that point and time. What I can't forgive is the adult's reaction.

Hog, I assume you've done great things with your life, eh? I notice that you seem quick to judge and stereotype. Good for you. We need people like you to start wars.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by srwdc1 on 09-18-2001 09:14 PM:

Kicked the kids out of school?

kicked them out for the WHOLE YEAR? and these were "goths"?

Maybe not a good idea.

Hmm, can anyone spell "Columbine?"

Posted by homer on 09-19-2001 12:23 AM:

Let's be clear that "goths" are not violent people that like to go around shooting their classmates. That's like saying Muslims are fanatical terrorists.

What very well may have caused the events at columbine were adolescents being pushed to the fringes of society...by peers and by adults. Anyone pushed to the fringe of society may have a higher tendency to react violently to their situation. In rare cases, that may lead to shootings.

If you get pushed down enough times, you may react.

Our country likes to push other countries around alot. Sometimes they react. Sometimes violently.

There's too much irony in here...

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by VTL on 09-19-2001 01:29 AM:

That's crap. Now you are making excuses for both the killers at Columbine and for the killers in NY and DC. Nothing other kids did to the punks at Columbine justifies or explains their killing spree. And nothing the U.S. has done to anyone in the Mideast justifies or explains what happened on 9/11.

Posted by shockwave869 on 09-19-2001 02:46 AM:

you can't defend these kids. 5000 people are thought to be dead and one of these punks writes "they deserved to die". imagine if somebody's father who had died in the WTC saw that, i would not be suprised if the punk was beaten senseless. yes 1 year might be a little harsh, but a significant suspension is a bare minimum. my great uncle faught in world war two and had a sticker on his wall about the flag. "Love it or leave". I agree with this. these kids wished death on many others, and there is no excuse for what they did.

Posted by homer on 09-19-2001 03:48 AM:

quote:
That's crap. Now you are making excuses for both the killers at Columbine and for the killers in NY and DC.

There's a difference between excuses and reasons (cause and effect). I wasn't excusing anyone of anything.

quote:
Nothing other kids did to the punks at Columbine justifies or explains their killing spree.

Of course not. But it may explain it.

quote:
And nothing the U.S. has done to anyone in the Mideast justifies or explains what happened on 9/11.

Of course not. But it may explain it.

quote:
you can't defend these kids.

I'm not. I'm questioning the reaction. And maybe defending their right to do what they did...which is different than defending them.

quote:
my great uncle faught in world war two and had a sticker on his wall about the flag. "Love it or leave". I agree with this.

I disagree with that. People with blind patriosm are bad for the country. Accepting that the country is just fine as it is leaves no room or motivation for improvement. One of the very principals of freedom in this country is our ability to question our own government. Those that do not are not upholding their civic duty. If you 'love' the flag...partake in the democracy that flies it. If a terrorist strikes a country with such violence. Ask 'why'?

quote:
these kids wished death on many others, and there is no excuse for what they did.

There certainly isn't. And there is certainly no excuse for the way they were beat up by their classmates. And there is certainly no excuse for the way the faculty of that district decided to expel them from school. There *may* be explanations. I'd like to hear them...from all parties. Knowing why people do things helps to understand them. Understanding people goes a long way towards mutual respect...which goes a long way towards living peacefully with them. That applies to your classmates, your neighbors, and your foreign enemies.

I hope no one assumes that I think what happened last week was justified. I'm just a little frightened by all of the rage that people have. Everyone has a right to be mad about what happened. But everyone seems ready to fly the flag and kick some ass before fully understanding the situation. Look before you leap.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by miradu on 09-19-2001 05:09 AM:

Theres a ime and place for everything. When your protesting, using your free speech, you shouldn't do it when the nation is going through hell. This is ethics. This isn't rights. The people as humans need to understand that sometimes when thousands of people lost friends family, and economic turmoil has started not to mention a possibility of WW3, you don't go writing f**k america. To be respected, YOU need to respect. You want people to listen to why you hate america? Listen to others too. As it is, they are welcome to say f**k america outloud with the flag, but the fact that they wrote down it, on something where the tone was remorse, was sick. I belive in my rights. I belive in free speech. I belive in others with opinions that I totally disagree with having free speech, rights. But there is a time and place for everything. This wasn't it.

As for kids who beat down on the f**k america kid(s)? no commment. You should never be persecuted especially physicly for your opinions, no matter how bad in the majority of peoples eyes.

Last of all. Please don't let 1) flash judgements hurt you 2) an idea that goth kids are bad. I ahve a great freinds whos goth. She can talk SO much sence into me, and she really is into poliitics, in a good way. Soo, there are good peopel out there...

aren't there?

__________________
-miradu

Posted by george_vc on 09-19-2001 06:20 AM:

I agree about the time and place!!! Bad time to make their "statement".

Posted by VTL on 09-19-2001 06:30 AM:

Homer, with all due respect, trying to "explain" the inexcusable is pretty much the same as excusing it.

The type of moral relativism you preach is part of the reason evil flourishes in the world today. A search for explanations for evil acts ultimately validates the act in some way.

At some point, you have to judge the actions of others, be willing to point the finger and say that what he or she did was evil. No explanation, no excuses, nothing but consequences for the wrongdoer.

In terms of the kids who messed up Dev's project - they deserved to be punished, particularly the punk who wrote they "deserved to die." He wants to celebrate the death of people whose worst offense was being at their desk earning a living for their families? Screw him.

There's also no explanation worthy of that term for the idiots who gunned down their fellow students at Columbine, other than the fact that they were evil, twisted little bastards. If memory serves, it was that other kids were mean to them because they were "different." Get over it. It doesn't "explain" gunning other kids down in cold bl

Finally, there's no explanation for what happened in NY and DC. None at all. All that's left now is justice for the dead.

Posted by homer on 09-19-2001 07:46 AM:

quote:
Homer, with all due respect, trying to "explain" the inexcusable is pretty much the same as excusing it.

ex�pla�na�tion: n. Something that explains: That was supposedly the explanation for their misdeeds.

ex�cuse: n. An explanation offered to justify or obtain forgiveness.

See the difference? An explanation is simple facts. An excuse is a specific explanation used to justify the action.

It is subtle, but I think it is important to recognize the difference.

quote:
The type of moral relativism you preach is part of the reason evil flourishes in the world today. A search for explanations for evil acts ultimately validates the act in some way.

But validating is not the same as excusing. At least that's now how I see it. I want to know WHY these terrorists did what they did. I'm not going to excuse them for what they did...I just think it's important as humans to ask 'why' as much as we can.

quote:
At some point, you have to judge the actions of others, be willing to point the finger and say that what he or she did was evil. No explanation, no excuses, nothing but consequences for the wrongdoer.

Well this is a personal decision. I respect your reasoning. I agree that one needs to judge the actions of others at times and be prepared to stand behind your beliefs. I agree that at times excuses are irrelevant. And I'm pretty much in agreement that some form of consequences are necessarry for wrongdoing. However, I feel that explanations are always relevant, as it helps us learn about each other.

quote:
In terms of the kids who messed up Dev's project - they deserved to be punished, particularly the punk who wrote they "deserved to die." He wants to celebrate the death of people whose worst offense was being at their desk earning a living for their families?

I completely agree that they deserved to be punished. I disagree that they should be called punks. I disagree that they were writing what they did to celebrate the death of innocent people. They may have, but if no one asked 'why' and searched for an explanation, than we have no way of knowing.

quote:
There's also no explanation worthy of that term for the idiots who gunned down their fellow students at Columbine, other than the fact that they were evil, twisted little bastards.

Have you read the book 'Geeks'? Go read it if you haven't. It will give you a slightly different perspective on the events that transpired there and the slant the media took on the tradgedy. Again, it's about learning about why it happened. It still doesn't excuse them from what they did...but it makes it a bit clearer as to how things like that happen.

quote:
Finally, there's no explanation for what happened in NY and DC. None at all.

Again, we're probably debating semantics. I feel that there is no excuse for what happened. There most definitely is an explanation, however.

quote:
All that's left now is justice for the dead.

The whole issue of retaliation ('justice') and whether or not it is justified (excusable) or right is something I'd love to debate too...but this topic is already moving way off course...so I'll let it be.

BTW, thanks for the civil debate. I enjoy reading other's POV on this whole event. I'm learning a lot.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by afabio on 09-19-2001 03:42 PM:

The expelled kids

I went through a similar situation in high school during the Gulf war. One student put a flag up in the Caf, another ripped it down, and a huge fistfight errupted. (turns out the first student's older brother was there, and involved in the ground war). I don't know what the punishment was.

On to this incident... If a student is angry enough to write those things on the american flag, chances are they have done other things to get themselves in trouble with the school authorities. This may be a case of "the straw that broke the camel's back" rather than an overly harsh punishment. Dev, what is the history of these kids?

-Adam

Posted by hog on 09-19-2001 06:30 PM:

can' think up a subject header

Afabio makes a good point.
Recent studies in Dev Psychopathol have shown that antisocial behavior since early childhood (early elementary school age years) is highly predictive of life-long antisocial behavior whereas later adolescence-onset antisocial behavior is possibly correctable. So let me make an amendment to my previous statement: if the 2 punks have a record of bad behavior going back to elementary years, THEN let's all go over and physically assault them. Sometimes a good beating does a body good.

Posted by BobbyMike on 09-19-2001 07:59 PM:

It actually sounds as if it might have been in their own best interests to be expelled. Some other disturbed kid might think it's patriotic to beat them senseless.
I also think that the punishment (as it sounds from the info we've gotten) is a bit harsh. As a vet I'm always upset when Americans show disrespect to our country and/or flag, but I was a disturbed kid myself. I spent a lot of time at home, suspended, for fighting. I also got some nice one-on-one time from school staff who felt it important to try and find out why I was getting into so many fights. Sounds as if those two kids need something similar.
Corporal punishment (spankings, canings, beatings) won't do anything but make the person(s) administrating the punishment feel as if they were accomplishing something. Use some common sense. Violence begets violence.
As to showing the flag (idolatry vs. solidarity), if you feel it important to display a flag, super. Please observe proper flag etiquette though and don't let the flag get faded, torn, dirty, etc. Doing so shows disrespect and is worse than burning (the proper way to dispose of an old flag) because it comes from neglect. Also don't leave a flag out at night unless you keep it lit and don't let the flag fly in inclement weather. Don't let it touch the ground. Lastly, the flag in and of itself is merely a symbol for our country and it's core values. Those core values include respect for all people, not merely those who agree with you.

Michael (you can tread on me, but not my God, country, wife, kids, dog, cats, or Visor)

PS The number one goal of terrorism is terror, secondary goals are spreading confusion and dissension.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by VTL on 09-19-2001 10:36 PM:

Homer:

My pleasure. Civil debate is what separates us from the terrorists. Let's put it this way - fundamentalists of whatever stripe don't tolerate debate.

If I seem a little heated, it's because I know a lot of folks back in NY, at least one of which didn't make it out of the WTC. A lot of my friends lost friends and colleagues. So I have little patience for folks who seem to think this is somehow a good, or even explicable, thing.

Posted by Toby on 09-19-2001 10:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shockwave869
[...] my great uncle faught in world war two and had a sticker on his wall about the flag. "Love it or leave". [...]

Your great uncle obviously didn't have a clue about the meaning of the flag. The meaning of the flag should be more along the lines of "love it or stage a revolution to get it to the way that you want it if you can come out on top". That's its origin after all.

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