VisorCentral.com - How much would you pay for an active Springboard CF adapter that uses CF peripherals?

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-- How much would you pay for an active Springboard CF adapter that uses CF peripherals? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=15370)

Posted by dvIceT on 05-26-2001 04:11 AM:

OK guys. This is for all those people who ask if they could use a CF modem with the existing passive CF adapters. This is for those who wish they had a CF ethernet solution like the PocketPC's and Handera/TRGPro guys. It's time to put your money (or at least your posts) where your mouth is. I asked PiDeveloper in another thread if it was possible to create an active CF adapter. This is his reply:

quote:
Originally posted by PiDeveloper

It is possible to have a TypeII compact flash adapter for CF peripherals. But the size maybe huge and also the power consumption maybe problem. Besides, each CF peripherals may need a software driver for it.
Considering a lot of SB module are already here. It may not be an good investment.

- PiDeveloper

Let's be honest. PI Technology will only even begin to consider this if there is enough *money* and interest in it, but they appear to have the development savvy and technical know-how to pull it off. They seem to have an appreciation for the technical hurdles to be overcome so let's show them that there is a *real* interest in the product.

I'd be willing to fork over >$150. How about you?

Posted by miradu on 05-26-2001 04:36 AM:

less than $100.. I can't see paying more than that FOR AN ADAPTOR! I mean it's cool and all. But I need my money..

__________________
-miradu

Posted by bkbk on 05-26-2001 04:58 AM:

Can you list all the other poss. CF / SBs? (I'm not 100% sure what's out there for CF -- I just knew it wasn't enough in gen. to beat out SB ... so I got an HSVD!)

But, just like an SB, if it's something desirable enough, I'd pony up the $100-$150 or whatever. ("Whatever" includes $50, too, y'know.... )

__________________
"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein

Posted by dvIceT on 05-26-2001 05:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
Can you list all the other poss. CF / SBs? (I'm not 100% sure what's out there for CF -- I just knew it wasn't enough in gen. to beat out SB ... so I got an HSVD!)

But, just like an SB, if it's something desirable enough, I'd pony up the $100-$150 or whatever. ("Whatever" includes $50, too, y'know.... )

If it was done right, it would support all the stuff supported by the Handera/TRGPro:
http://www.handera.com/accessories/compat.asp

I know it would be non-trivial to support all this stuff, but that's why I would be willing to pay >$150. I like all of the Springboards I have now, but buying CF equivalents to Springboard gives me an out in case (heaven forbid) I forgo Handspring for my next handheld. In any case, these CF peripherals will still be usable with a laptop.

Posted by MPM on 05-27-2001 07:52 AM:

This is reall a question of software drivers

quote:
Originally posted by dvIceT
OK guys. This is for all those people who ask if they could use a CF modem with the existing passive CF adapters. This is for those who wish they had a CF ethernet solution like the PocketPC's and Handera/TRGPro guys. It's time to put your money (or at least your posts) where your mouth is. ...<snip>

Actually I think this is more a question of software than hardware. It has been stated in other threads dealing with this topic, that the existing CF adapters for the Visor can work only with CF storage cards and not the CF+ I/O cards like serial ports, ethernet ports, modems, wireless modems, etc... The reason given was two fold: 1) The adpters only accessed the CF card in memory mode, and not I/O mode. And 2) Vendors would have to write, and support a software driver for the Visor in addition to drivers for Windoze and Windoze CE (PPC).

Number 2 is definitely correct, but I think that number 1 is wrong. My read of the CompactFlash 1.4 specification is that CF+ cards must support both Memory and I/O Mode. CF+ cards do not have to support True IDE mode like regular CF cards.

So from the hardware viewpoint, it looks like the existing CF adapter could be used with CF+ I/O cards - IF software drivers existed.

Any takers out there to develop the drivers for the Visor? I would pay $20 for good drivers.

Posted by dvIceT on 05-27-2001 10:23 AM:

Re: This is reall a question of software drivers

quote:
Originally posted by MPM
Actually I think this is more a question of software than hardware. It has been stated in other threads dealing with this topic, that the existing CF adapters for the Visor can work only with CF storage cards and not the CF+ I/O cards like serial ports, ethernet ports, modems, wireless modems, etc... The reason given was two fold: 1) The adpters only accessed the CF card in memory mode, and not I/O mode. And 2) Vendors would have to write, and support a software driver for the Visor in addition to drivers for Windoze and Windoze CE (PPC).

Number 2 is definitely correct, but I think that number 1 is wrong. My read of the CompactFlash 1.4 specification is that CF+ cards must support both Memory and I/O Mode. CF+ cards do not have to support True IDE mode like regular CF cards.

So from the hardware viewpoint, it looks like the existing CF adapter could be used with CF+ I/O cards - IF software drivers existed.

Any takers out there to develop the drivers for the Visor? I would pay $20 for good drivers.

I'd love for this to be true(it would greatly simplify the problem), but I believe that back in the day when people made their own CF adapters, only those pins that were absolutely needed for memory access of CF cards were soldered, so the signaling or com lines needed for I/O access might not even be hooked up. I believe all present CF adapter makers follow the same construction process when producing their CF adapters. I could absolutely be wrong about this. (I'd need to review past posts about creating your own CF adapter.) Any more informed opinions are certainly welcome.

[UPDATE]
After further review . . .
From wading through some past posts, I came across this:
http://discussion.visorcentral.com/...apter#post77940

It seems to confirm what I thought.

Even though dkessler specifically mentions modems, I'm sure CF ethernet adapters would be an even tougher fit. From that same post I found, it seems the situation is even more dire than I thought. There are some signalling lines required by simple CF modems that simply don't exist in the Springboard slot.

Any more informed opinions are still welcome.
[/UPDATE]

Posted by rparsons on 05-27-2001 03:29 PM:

Further Investigation

It seems to me that if it is possible to build a Springport Module with the I/O functions required in Bluetooth, Camera's, Modems, Etc.. the necessary pins to adapt to are there. CF cards are considerably less costly than their Springport counterparts due to the variety and sheer number of devices that use them. I personally think the Springport was a great idea but in the near future customers will demand interoperatability and CF or SD will be the mainstay. Those users who purchase a CF card or SD card should be able to take them to their next generation PDA. So now, is it a worthwhile project to implement and patent a CF I/O adapter. I think so. Is it possible? That's a question for someone else, I am not a developer. Would "I" buy one? Yes, but not for over $100. I would rather go to a Handera at that point.

Posted by dvIceT on 05-27-2001 09:22 PM:

Re: Further Investigation

quote:
Originally posted by rparsons
It seems to me that if it is possible to build a Springport Module with the I/O functions required in Bluetooth, Camera's, Modems, Etc.. the necessary pins to adapt to are there.

I was thinking of that, but I surmise that what the Springboard modem makers have done is lump a serial port interface in with the components for the modem so that when the modem springboard is plugged in, another serial port is added to the system, it's just that a modem is always attached to that particular serial port! The Visor then sends commands across the serial interface to chips which regulate the I/O lines on that side of the interface. The same principle is probably true of other Springboards. CF peripherals seem to be different creatures from Springboards. AFAIK, some CF adapter pins needed by I/O devices are not even hooked up and may not even have any place to hook up to in the Sprinboard slot. I guess this is where a major difficulty arises. Those I/O lines will need to be handled, probably by adding in a custom chip. This by itself would increase the size and power signature of the active CF adapter. We still have to think of the power needed by the CF peripheral itself.

quote:
Originally posted by rparsons
CF cards are considerably less costly than their Springport counterparts due to the variety and sheer number of devices that use them. I personally think the Springport was a great idea but in the near future customers will demand interoperatability and CF or SD will be the mainstay. Those users who purchase a CF card or SD card should be able to take them to their next generation PDA. So now, is it a worthwhile project to implement and patent a CF I/O adapter. I think so. Is it possible? That's a question for someone else, I am not a developer. Would "I" buy one? Yes, but not for over $100. I would rather go to a Handera at that point. [/B]

I'm with you on this part. Springboards are great but are dead-ends when it comes to use on other devices. Unfortunately, my thinking now is that an active CF Springboard may not be as doable as I thought. Any more informed opinions are welcome.

Posted by hamiltondj on 05-28-2001 12:09 AM:

has anyone heard about this....

Somebody told me that there is work being done on an SD/IO for the palm handhelds that will allow springboard modules to be used a la the visor edge

Posted by dvIceT on 05-28-2001 04:42 AM:

Re: has anyone heard about this....

quote:
Originally posted by hamiltondj
Somebody told me that there is work being done on an SD/IO for the palm handhelds that will allow springboard modules to be used a la the visor edge

That would be an interesting development, but I'm not sure it's doable. I think a lot of the Handspring extensions to the PalmOS would need to be included in order to use the Springboards, and I'm not sure how that would (or could) be done.

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