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quote:
Originally posted by clulup
Toby indeed is the ultimate Master of the Quote Button..... (in the "vB Code" section above the field you type your reply in). His dissection of text/arguments makes me smile when he is on my side, but gets on my nerves when he isn't
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Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
All
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your
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quote
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button
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are
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belong
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to
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us!
__________________
Don't like somebody? Click "Profile" on a post and then click "Ignore "so and so's" posts". Voila!
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Originally posted by septimus
You
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Originally posted by septimus
have
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Originally posted by septimus
no
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Originally posted by septimus
chance to
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Originally posted by septimus
survive
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Originally posted by septimus
make
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Originally posted by septimus
your
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Originally posted by septimus
TobyParse!
__________________
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Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
Cool, I get a chance to update everybody on my wife's well being and refute the whole "God is dead (or was never here in the first place) business".
First off, for those of you who don't know, my wife was diagnosed with three different cancers in her left breast last year.
First Diagnosis (this was the lumpectomy)
Case # S03-13781
1. LEFT NIPPLE BIOPSY:
Nuclear grade 3 duct carcinoma in-situ involving large duct of nipple (first cancer) and associated Paget's disease (second cancer) present.
2. LEFT BREAST MASS:
Infiltrating duct carcinoma, grade 3 (tubule formation 3/3, nuclear pleomorphism 3/3, mitotic activity 3/3), 1.9 cm. Lymphatic space invasion present.
Tumor extends close, less than 1 mm, to medial margin, probably within lymphatics.
Nuclear grade 3 duct carcinoma in-situ with solid patterning, comedo necrosis and associated microcalcification.
DCIS (thats the first listed cancer) extends close, less than 1 mm, to the superior margin.
No extensive insitu component identified.
ER/PR and Her-2/neu requested.
Lisle A. Eaton, Jr., MD
Document reviewed and electronically signed by LAE
Based on this report, a masectomy was advised, with no other option. They had removed the 1.9 mm aggressive tumor, but had no clear margin around it and the associated Paget's (a type of cancer that attacks the nipple) made them very nervous. There is no known cure for Paget's except radical surgery (complete removal through surgery).
We repeatedly pushed them on this, asking if anyone had ever reported any kind of spontaneous healing, or reversal, of this kind of cancer. They (the doctors and nurses) said no. Our own research also made us believe there was no medical option but surgery (with following chemo, non-hormone responsive).
We prayed, had our friends pray, had our church pray, asked our aquaintances to pray, had strangers pray, and even had friends have their friends pray for Elizabeths' complete recovery.
The day of the surgery she had second thoughts., but decided to go through with it because the scarring on her nipple made us believe she still had the Paget's (after all, no one had ever been cured of it).
This is the biopsy of the tissue they removed from her (basically her entire left breast).
Second Diagnosis:
Case # S04-982
BREAST, LEFT, MASECTOMY:
Foci of residual nuclear grade 3 ductal carcinoma in-situ, involving the nipple. (basically the first cancer listed on the first pathology report was receeding by itself to a barely observable level)
No residual infiltrating ductal carcinoma present. (which was expected as they had removed the tumor during the lumpectomy)
Inked deep resection margin negative for tumor.
Negative skin. ( Where's the Paget's?)
Eight axillary lymph nodes negative for tumor (0/8)
Beiqing Liu, MD
Document reviewed and electronically signed by BL
Because they can't explain how the cancer disappeared, they recommended that she go through chemo anyway.
We laughed and said we'd think about it.
(all of this was experienced at St. Peter's Hospital in Albany, NY, an excellent world-class facility that we would recommend to anyone)
Based on your believe this "miracle" could be the direct result of:
1. UFO experimentation
2. Mass hypnosis
3. Gross Incompetence (by these world class physicians)
4. Unknown as of yet, but rationally explained scientific fact
5. Good vibes
6. Good luck (quick, buy a Lotto ticket honey!)
7. Prayer by a group of believers, to a caring, loving Father God.
The Truth is out there! 
And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.
Now we're praying for a complete regeneration of her breast.
Why not?
__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
quote:Based on your experience, I wouldn't take your recommendation.
Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] (all of this was experienced at St. Peter's Hospital in Albany, NY, an excellent world-class facility that we would recommend to anyone)
quote:
Based on your believe this "miracle" could be the direct result of:
1. UFO experimentation
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2. Mass hypnosis
quote:
3. Gross Incompetence (by these world class physicians)
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4. Unknown as of yet, but rationally explained scientific fact
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5. Good vibes
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6. Good luck (quick, buy a Lotto ticket honey!)
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7. Prayer by a group of believers, to a caring, loving Father God.
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The Truth is out there!
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And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.
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Now we're praying for a complete regeneration of her breast.
This wasn't my original post. still working on it.
__________________
Hydrogen is not the most plentiful element in the universe....stupidity is.
quote:I am really glad to hear that things went well (given the circumstances). You believe that the prayers caused some of the cancer to disappear, and that this was through an action of God.
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Cool, I get a chance to update everybody on my wife's well being and refute the whole "God is dead (or was never here in the first place) business".
First off, for those of you who don't know, my wife was diagnosed with three different cancers in her left breast last year.And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.
Now we're praying for a complete regeneration of her breast.
Why not?
quote:
Originally posted by clulup
I am really glad to hear that things went well (given the circumstances). You believe that the prayers caused some of the cancer to disappear, and that this was through an action of God.
However, I don't think it is a good idea that you act against the recommendation of the doctors regarding chemotherapy. If you don't trust these doctors, then go to other MDs and get a second (or third) opinion. I am not an expert in that field, but neither are you.
What if your wife dies of metastases which could have been prevented by chemo? Would you not feel guilty or bad about that? You may argue that if it goes bad, then it was the will of God. But why did you take action at all? Could it not be the will of God that you follow the recommendation of the doctors? Why take chances?
__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
BobbyMike,
Glad to hear your wife is doing ok. At least I think that is what you said in your post. I do of course have to take issue with a couple of your statements. And I have a few questions. In my line of work I deal with many cancer patients, so that where some of this comes from.
I noticed no where in your post did you mention an opinion by another doctor or facility. So I can assume you trust Lisle A. Eaton, Jr., MD and Beiqing Liu, MD completely in his determination that your wife needed one of her breats cut off. A second opinion is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. As Tony alluded to, many times chart are switched or other lab errors occur. A second opinion is sometimes the only way these mistakes are caught. I mean a second opinion from another facility altogether not just another dr at the same place.
In classic Toby style:
quote:
We prayed, had our friends pray, had our church pray, asked our aquaintances to pray, had strangers pray, and even had friends have their friends pray for Elizabeths' complete recovery.
quote:
The day of the surgery she had second thoughts., but decided to go through with it because the scarring on her nipple made us believe she still had the Paget's (after all, no one had ever been cured of it).
quote:
Because they can't explain how the cancer disappeared, they recommended that she go through chemo anyway.
quote:
We laughed and said we'd think about it.
quote:
Based on your believe this "miracle" could be the direct result of:
3. Gross Incompetence (by these world class physicians).
quote:
7. Prayer by a group of believers, to a caring, loving Father God.
quote:
And FYI, we are not angry with the surgeons, doctors or anyone else. Without the intervention of God (accomplished through the healing power of Jesus' blood) they would have been our only hope.
__________________
Hydrogen is not the most plentiful element in the universe....stupidity is.
quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Based on your experience, I wouldn't take your recommendation.
quote:yep
Originally posted by Toby That would be an unusual one.
quote:yep
Originally posted by Toby No evidence of this.
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Originally posted by Toby Actually, it wouldn't take gross incompetence at all. More easy to believe a lab error or mixup. Have you ever seen the number of mistaken or mixed up charges from the average hospital billing department? Why would you think their labs are any more organized?
quote:see above.
Originally posted by Toby Plausible, but lab error seems much more likely.
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Originally posted by Toby A bit New Age-ish, but the power of a positve mind-set can be impressive.
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Originally posted by Toby Can't hurt. Why not?
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Originally posted by Toby Who didn't seem to grant the doctors the sense to do another biopsy _before_ amputation. What a wasteful God.
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Originally posted by Toby Could be.
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Originally posted by Toby Well, I'm glad to hear of the recovery at least.
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Originally posted by Toby Let me know if that happens and I might change my outlook.
__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
quote:
Originally posted by Woof
BobbyMike,
Glad to hear your wife is doing ok. At least I think that is what you said in your post. I do of course have to take issue with a couple of your statements. And I have a few questions. In my line of work I deal with many cancer patients, so that where some of this comes from.
I noticed no where in your post did you mention an opinion by another doctor or facility. So I can assume you trust Lisle A. Eaton, Jr., MD and Beiqing Liu, MD completely in his determination that your wife needed one of her breats cut off. A second opinion is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. As Tony alluded to, many times chart are switched or other lab errors occur. A second opinion is sometimes the only way these mistakes are caught. I mean a second opinion from another facility altogether not just another dr at the same place.
In classic Toby style:
Kinda seems like you didn't have much faith in your own prayers. On one hand you trust god to cure her, but on the other you trust surgeons just in case.
Happens alot with cancer. It can appear to be gone in one instance and return with a vengeance at any given time. They were trying to be sure.
Why because chemo is funny or because you dont trust them now or because you think praying did something and you now don't need treatment cause God has now acknowledged your need and stepped up to help you?
No way it could be this one cause world class drs dont make mistakes. (Did you hit your head? Everyone makes mistakes. World Class Drs are no exception. Dont be naive.)
Why the hell are you special? Why do you get God's help and other people dont? So I guess that you are better than many of the other people who pray for help with a disease and end up dying because God didn't answer their prayers? I'd like an explanation as to why your prayers were answered (at least in your mind) and why someone elses weren't?
You shouldnt be angry, they gave you the choice of treatment or not. How did you get Jesus' blood in the OR? I doubt there is a hospital in the country that would allow any blood in an OR that was certified by the hospital. When did Jesus get his HIV test? He would have had to have one to donate blood for your operation. And if you didnt need the drs because of God's intervention, why did you let them go ahead with the surgery? Just in case? Cause maybe you werent so confident in the power of prayer?
It's easy to say prayer helped after the fact. It's always easy to use God after the fact. Cure = God helped. No cure = God's will.
My main point is of course why does God care one wit more about you than any other person. Why did your wife get 'miraculously' cured and millions of others didn't? I think it's incredibly arrogant to assume you are more worthy of God's intervention than anyone else. But in my experience with Christians of many flavors that's the norm.
You remind me of that moron Kurt Warner after the Rams 1st SuperBowl with him as QB. "thank you Jesus, we owe it all to Jesus". Jesus doesn't give a damn who wins a football game.
Why does he care about your wife more than any other?
Again, glad your wife is still with us.
Woof
Actually I'm in a hurry.__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
Gee a guy plays DEvil's Advocate and some people get all riled up.
quote:
Don't try to lecture me on my belief either. Your knowledge of my theology is very limited, basically to my posts here.
Dude, I was just asking questions. I wasn't lecturing you.
quote:
As to why us being "special" (which is why I believe your understanding to be flawed) and God caring more for us than others, I never said anything to that effect.
That's coming out of your mind. God doesn't care more about us than He does about anyone. He loves us all equally. But if you don't ask him for help, why would He? He comes into your life when you ask Him in. He respects you and leaves you alone when you don't want Him around.
It was the implication that bothered me. By that I mean that because you asked for help and got it. Sure special was my word, so what. What about all the people that ask and don't get it? You asked you got help, others asked got nothing. If he loves all equally how does that work?
quote:
As to why He would heal my wife and not others? How the heck should I know? He's God, I'm not. I'm not supposed to understand him. I don't believe it's because He loves us more, or because we have less sin in our lives, or because we go to church more. I'm just grateful.
This is a bit of a contradiction in my view. Again, for those who ask he helps because he loves all equally. But why heal your wife and not others? Didn't you just say it was becaused you asked?
quote:
As to your comments about Jesus' Blood. Get a grip. If you're going to try and start a flame war over someone's religious beliefs at least go to the trouble to try and understand what they're saying.
Me get a grip? You got a sense of humor? Ever heard of tongue in cheek? Man I was making a joke. Flame war? My aren't we sensitive? Just asking some questions and having a little fun. I understood what you were saying. The absolute of absurdity of my comment about Jesus' blood and all that should have been a clue. Guess you're one of those that doesn't joke about religion.
quote:
The only arrogance I'm sensing around here is yours, mainly that someone could actually a differing opinion about God than yours. And possible be right.
Yep I am arrogant because there are different opinions than mine. And that they could possibly be right makes me arrogant too. What the hell does that mean? I disagree with you. I think your belief in God is foolish and illogical. That is my OPINION!!!! It doesn't make me arrogant it makes me of a different mind. You very likely think the same thing or something similar about anyone who doesnt believe in God. Whatever.
quote:
As to me reminding you of a moron, thanks. After saying earlier on how you admired my ability to civilly discuss matters with others I'm guessing you're one of those people who admire other people who play nice, but have no intention of doing it yourself.
I feel the need to clarify here. I didn't intend for you to think I was calling you a moron. Sorry about that. I was comparing you to Kurt Warner in the sense that I think it's ridiculous for someone to assume that God or Jesus or whatever will take any special notice of one person or group of people. If he did, that would contradict the idea he loves us all the same regardless. I think he (Kurt) is a moron for lots of reasons, but in part because he thinks that for some reason Jesus likes his team better than another. That is arrogance in my view. As to your wife's condition, I was applying the same logic. Why would your prayers be answered and not those of the girl who mistakenly had the wrong heart lung transplant? I saw her parents praying on the news. Why did God pass them by?
My answer is because God doesn't get involved. If he was in the habit of healing anyone who asked, why would we need modern medicine, or premodern medicine for that matter? Why would God give us the power to treat disease and then come along and circumvent our efforts? Ya ya I know because he's God and he can. Were back to the convenient after the fact answer.
Sorry again. Didn't mean to get you worked up. I just don't easily accept the "just because" answers.
My best to Elizabeth.
Woof
__________________
Hydrogen is not the most plentiful element in the universe....stupidity is.
quote:And yet you still discard their 'expert medical advice' when it comes to chemo? Feh.
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Actually the surgery went great and as advertised. the care was excellent too. they have one of the best recovery rates in the NE.
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We did our research. The lab results are double checked and verified.
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waste of money for the vast majority
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The biopsy after the lumpectomy was the confirming biopsy. They knew she had the aggressive lump and the Paget's.
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Do a google on Paget's if you wish.
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Might? Maybe I should start praying for you to grow a breast. Would you believe then
BobbyMike, first congrats with the great news!
I think your praying did help, but not in the way you think it did.
The human body is an amazing 'machine' and the mind is a more powerfull healer than most people realize. If people really want to heal it is amazing how much the body can fight off.
IMHO the praying and best wishes she got, boosted her will to fight, resulting in her body fighting of the cancer on it own.
I've seen it before, my mother in law a year ago only had weeks to live according to docters.. and if you'd seen her you'd think days... her liver and kidneys were all messed up and she was retaining amonia.. not very pretty..
A year later she is still alive and doing amazingly for a person who was so close to death...
Her will to outlive her mother and not look weak to her kids was stronger than her fragile body...
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Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
for our jewish friends:
Email god: https://onemail.bezeq.com/portal/he/OneMailMain.jsp
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Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
BobbyMike - Glad to hear your wife is ok and that her recovery has strengthened your love of life. As for the faith that goes with that, well, I think you know where I stand on that. But, and I mean this, the happiness and well being of a loved one is more important than whether or not a god caused it.
Woof - I speak from experience - the message board does a very poor job of transmitting tone - thus our failure to recognize the "devil's advocate" tone. I find it's best to be heavy-handed with tone, it's not as witty, but it's much less dangerous.
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Don't like somebody? Click "Profile" on a post and then click "Ignore "so and so's" posts". Voila!
quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Well let's see. According to oncologist:
20% chance of recurrance with chemo.
50% chance of early menopause being triggered because of chemo.
Chance of liver, heart, lung damage because of chemo.
Chance of leukemia because of chemo.
vs.
30% chance of recurrance without chemo.
These statistics are for people who had Paget's disease. Which she doesn't have anymore.
): I guess it is not so important whether somebody believes in God or not. Personally I don't because there is not a single sign for his existance. What is important is how somebody acts. There are lot's of people who believe in God and act stupidly and cruelly, and lot's of people who don't believe in God and act positively and mercifully - and vice-versa.
quote:
Originally posted by Woof
Gee a guy plays DEvil's Advocate and some people get all riled up.
....
Sorry again. Didn't mean to get you worked up. I just don't easily accept the "just because" answers.
My best to Elizabeth.
Woof
__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
quote:
Originally posted by Toby
And yet you still discard their 'expert medical advice' when it comes to chemo? ... I'm not going to be so crass as to ask for before and after photos.
) you might try an open mind. Oh, wait, that's not logical __________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
quote:
Originally posted by septimus
BobbyMike - Glad to hear your wife is ok and that her recovery has strengthened your love of life. As for the faith that goes with that, well, I think you know where I stand on that. But, and I mean this, the happiness and well being of a loved one is more important than whether or not a god caused it.
__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
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