VisorCentral.com - Visor Deluxe Upgradeable to Palm OS 3.5?

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Visor & Deluxe (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)
-- Visor Deluxe Upgradeable to Palm OS 3.5? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=8696)

Posted by california boyhead on 10-17-2000 09:27 AM:

From what I can tell, the Visor Platinum is functionally identical to the Visor Deluxe except for the OS and processor speed. Will I be able to upgrade my Visor Deluxe to OS 3.5 so I can see images in 16 shades of grey? The Handspring website says both models use the same screen. Will a patch be made available to me?

Posted by Toby on 10-17-2000 02:15 PM:

I sent them an email asking about potential upgrade paths (RAM patches, etc.). If/when I hear anything, I'll post it.

Posted by forvisor on 10-17-2000 05:13 PM:

I would be surprised if Handspring released an os patch for the deluxe. Don't get me wrong I definitely want a patch!! But if they did that most deluxe users wouldn't upgrade to the platinum or the prism. I think the man reason that handspring is using non-flash rom is because when they release a new visor the current users will have no choice but to upgrade if they want to stay up with the technology!! What I think would be nice is if handspring would offer some sort of upgrade price. Say if you shipped your current deluxe to then and they would send you a platinum or a prism for an �upgrade� price. I would be willing to pay up to $100 dollars for a new platinum.

Posted by dennya on 10-17-2000 05:34 PM:

Actually, I talked to Handspring about this issue last month, when I was working on our Prism/Platinum article for the magazine.

The reason they're sticking with ROM for now on the high-end Visors is because of the Flash ROM shortages, which aren't likely to let up until sometime in 2001. If you look at the supply problems that Palm had, they were due to difficulty getting screens and Flash memory. That's also the holdup on at least some Springboard modules. Thus, Handspring went with ROM to avoid shortages.

The folks I talked to said that as the supply problems were addressed, they'd of course consider putting Flash ROM in future units.

__________________
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Posted by Toby on 10-17-2000 05:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by forvisor
I would be surprised if Handspring released an os patch for the deluxe. Don't get me wrong I definitely want a patch!! But if they did that most deluxe users wouldn't upgrade to the platinum or the prism. I think the man reason that handspring is using non-flash rom is because when they release a new visor the current users will have no choice but to upgrade if they want to stay up with the technology!!

This would be an extremely short-sighted view that doesn't seem very typical of the folks in charge.

quote:
What I think would be nice is if handspring would offer some sort of upgrade price. Say if you shipped your current deluxe to then and they would send you a platinum or a prism for an �upgrade� price. I would be willing to pay up to $100 dollars for a new platinum.

That would be an excellent idea. I even asked about something like that in my email to Handspring that I sent yesterday.

Posted by Ratbertio on 10-17-2000 08:04 PM:

Or maybe Handspring could do what Palm did awhile ago... release a new ROM board (I hope I got the term right).

I bought a Palm Pilot Professional (1 MB) around the time the Palm IIIs were just coming out. For just over $100, Palm sold a 2 MB ROM replacement board (much like the old 8 MB TRG boards) that included the latest OS. Back up your data, pop the existing board out and the new one in and restore your data. Voila! In 15 minutes, a had a Palm III, albeit in a PPP case.

When Handspring first stated that they weren't using flash ROM, I thought for sure this is how they would handle those "major" OS upgrades.

__________________
Too err is human, to moo bovine.

Posted by california boyhead on 10-17-2000 10:15 PM:

so basically, nobody knows?

Posted by LarryN on 10-18-2000 02:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by california boyhead
so basically, nobody knows?

Patience kimosabe...
You might want to check the archives then.

Answer is! (bing)

The OS itself is not "upgradable". If somebody developed a patch that incorporated all the features of 3.5, then you would have a reasonable facimile. This is similar the the patch that Handspring created earlier this year to address a memory problem. Will this upgrade patch happen? Who knows. (which I guess means I don't know either)

Posted by california boyhead on 10-18-2000 09:36 AM:

is 3.5 really that different from 3.1? how big would such a patch be? im kinda grumpy about this.

Posted by Albert C. Lee on 10-18-2000 12:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by california boyhead
is 3.5 really that different from 3.1? how big would such a patch be? im kinda grumpy about this.

A patch would likely be too large and bloated to be effective. Think of it like running Windows 95, and then running a program in the background that makes it into Windows 98. I exaggerate a little, but the effect is the same. At the very least, you will lose a lot of memory off the top since the changes are fairly significant.

This is the top reason why people continue to complain about the lack of Flash on the Handspring line. In practice (99% of the time), you will never know the difference. But when there is a new version of an OS (thankfully only every 1 to 1.5 years it seems), you're stuck either buying a new unit or sticking with the older OS.

Those that buy a Platinum or a Prism now will find themselves without an upgrade by the time Palm OS 4.x or newer comes out.

If it's any consolation, 3.5 was noticeably slower than 3.3 on my Palm V... I had to use CruiseControl to speed up my Palm V for the performance to be about the same as 3.3. I wouldn't want to run 3.5 on a Visor Deluxe without planning to overclock the unit.

Posted by Toby on 10-18-2000 03:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Albert C. Lee
A patch would likely be too large and bloated to be effective. Think of it like running Windows 95, and then running a program in the background that makes it into Windows 98. I exaggerate a little, but the effect is the same. At the very least, you will lose a lot of memory off the top since the changes are fairly significant.

Are they really? I've seen or heard of nothing really significant that differentiates the two that can't be done with a fairly small hack or add-on. If you have differing information, I'd love to hear it.

quote:
This is the top reason why people continue to complain about the lack of Flash on the Handspring line.

Just because it's the top reason doesn't necessarily make it a valid or rational one.

quote:
In practice (99% of the time), you will never know the difference. But when there is a new version of an OS (thankfully only every 1 to 1.5 years it seems), you're stuck either buying a new unit or sticking with the older OS.

Or waiting for the possibility of a patch/upgrade path.

quote:
Those that buy a Platinum or a Prism now will find themselves without an upgrade by the time Palm OS 4.x or newer comes out.

If that OS version even runs on the Dragonball platfrom. If it runs on the StrongARM, the point is moot.

Posted by potter on 10-18-2000 03:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ratbertio
Or maybe Handspring could do what Palm did awhile ago... release a new ROM board (I hope I got the term right).

Alas it would have to be factory installed. For the old Palm 1000, 5000, Personal and Professional, it was just a matter of:

Snapping of a cover.
Removing a SIMM like card ROM card.
Put in the new ROM card.
Replace the cover.

For the Visor it would be more like:

Remove the screws from the back cover.
Carefully separate the two halves.
Disconnect the ribbon cable between the front half and the back half from the motherboard. (I am guessing from this point on.)
Remove the screws holding the motherboard to the back.
Remove the motherboard.
On the back of the motherboard, remove the ROM card.
Replace with the new ROM card.
Replace the motherboard and screws.
Reattach the ribbon cable.
Snap the case halves back together and replace the screws.

All of this in a static safe workspace.

Posted by Albert C. Lee on 10-18-2000 03:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Are they really? I've seen or heard of nothing really significant that differentiates the two that can't be done with a fairly small hack or add-on. If you have differing information, I'd love to hear it.

The reason I used the Windows 95 and Windows 98 analogy is because they are for all intents and purposes the same core, with some key modifications (USB, etc.)

However, look at the Palm OS 3.5 benefits:
http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/docs/palmos35/

From the outside, it looks like they added a few nice looking things, and called it quits. But if you look at what's new for the developer, I see a number of significant back end changes which, from my perspective, would be impractical to try and hack/patch.

More importantly is my concern with regard to performance. 3.5 is slower than 3.3 when you install the PalmOS into the flash of the Palm series. How slow would a 3.5 patch be assuming you had to boot a hacked 3.3->3.5 core?

Don't take this as Handspring bashing -- I am acutely interested in the Prism, and if the screen is better than I hope, then I'm getting one. But what continues to give me pause is the lack of flash.

I won't care until (and if) PalmOS is upgraded again for the Dragonball. If it happens, then my options then are either grin and bear it, sell on eBay and buy a new one, or hope for a patch (which I still feel is impractical given PalmOS 3.5's bloat). Although in theory, I have upgraded my Palm almost yearly, so it may not be as big a deal as I make it out to be.

Posted by Visorholic on 10-18-2000 03:48 PM:

Well with a shortage of Flash, and the desire to have the latest and greatest OS, Handspring should make the ROM board mush more accesable, this would be an excellent compromise. If they did this on there next line of Visors I would gladly buy one again. This would allow those of us that want to upgrade to pay say $70 for a new Rom and off you go. But maybe thats not a cost effective solution when its actually put in place.

Just an idea.

-Visorholic

Posted by Toby on 10-18-2000 04:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Albert C. Lee
From the outside, it looks like they added a few nice looking things, and called it quits. But if you look at what's new for the developer, I see a number of significant back end changes which, from my perspective, would be impractical to try and hack/patch.

I'll have to check it out when I have more time, but that would be more significant than the UI changes that I've noticed.

quote:
More importantly is my concern with regard to performance. 3.5 is slower than 3.3 when you install the PalmOS into the flash of the Palm series. How slow would a 3.5 patch be assuming you had to boot a hacked 3.3->3.5 core?

No way to tell really. If anything, though, that seems more like a justification not to want to upgrade.

quote:
Don't take this as Handspring bashing

I didn't.

quote:
-- I am acutely interested in the Prism, and if the screen is better than I hope, then I'm getting one.

I'm not really that interested in it. I'd consider a Platinum, but the Prism really isn't for me from the information I've seen.

quote:
But what continues to give me pause is the lack of flash.

That's your prerogative, of course. I was just commenting on my observations of the general trend I've noticed from people who complain about it. Not saying that you necessarily fit that category.

quote:
I won't care until (and if) PalmOS is upgraded again for the Dragonball. If it happens, then my options then are either grin and bear it, sell on eBay and buy a new one, or hope for a patch (which I still feel is impractical given PalmOS 3.5's bloat). Although in theory, I have upgraded my Palm almost yearly, so it may not be as big a deal as I make it out to be.

heh Therein lies the rub. Your options then are basically the same as they are now, so it's not really something that should seem to be a "make or break" concern. My attitude about flash and/or patch upgrades is that they'd surely be nice to have, but the thing already meets my needs, so I'm not really too concerned about it.

Posted by california boyhead on 10-19-2000 12:30 PM:

augh this is bull ****, all i want to do is run the handspring photo program on my visor deluxe. i dont really want anything other than 16 grey support throughout. fireconverter is not available for mac. im a grumpy bear.

Posted by argent on 10-19-2000 12:39 PM:

There are some new APIs in 3.5, but most of the differences in the SDK are unrelated to the new APIs, and they could easily be provided by new libraries.

The biggest difference is the 3.5 serial library is more modular (but Handspring already has hooks for that to support springboard modules) and there are some networking changes (including network hotsync). I suspect that replacing a couple of libraries and the hotsync and prefs applets would do the trick.

Also consider that less than half of the 1.5M system image is actually OS... the rest is applications. No, I don't think it would be a big deal to do a RAM upgrade that gave pretty much all the advantages of 3.5.

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Posted by MPM on 10-19-2000 08:26 PM:

Use GraphicConverter

quote:
Originally posted by california boyhead
augh this is bull ****, all i want to do is run the handspring photo program on my visor deluxe. i dont really want anything other than 16 grey support throughout. fireconverter is not available for mac. im a grumpy bear.

GraphicConverter 3.9.1 from Lemke Software (http://www.lemkesoft.com/) will save files in FireViewer format.

NOTE: GraphicConverter does not yet support the extra large images that the new 3.7 verion of FireView can handle.

This effectively gives Mac users a FREE version of FireViewer because it's the converter program (PC only) that they charge for.

Posted by california boyhead on 10-20-2000 01:20 AM:

THANKS! it works great

Posted by Chazzz on 10-21-2000 09:26 PM:

Not the old upgrade issue again?

People griped about the lack of Flash when the Visor first came out. And what I said back then was that if major OS upgrades came out, then most likely you would need new hardware to take advantage of it anyway.

OS 3.5 supports color... how many VDx users can take advantage of that without new hardware?

The Prism and the Platinum boast faster processors... are there maybe some new instructions in the chip that help the OS run faster that current VDx users couldn't take advantage of without new hardware?

One question I had regarding the 16-greyscale of the Platinum... does the current VDx processor support 16-greyscale? And if it does, wouldn that slow the machine down a bit? And wouldn't it be really lack-luster anyway given the screen? If it doesn't [support 16-gs], then you still need a new machine to take advantage of that option.

I, for one, am really not that concerned about Flash or being able to upgrade my current VDx to OS 3.5.2h or anything else. The current OS works perfectly fine for everything I need it to right now. However, am I going to upgrade to a Prism or Platinum -- probably.

What I've seen realistically with the people I see using PalmOS stuff is that they're either going to upgrade slowly because what they have works fine and they're not techno-geeky enough to "need" to upgrade; OR they need to have the fastest, coolest machine around and they upgrade all the time _anyway_ -- usually whole machines... How many people really wish they still had their old Palm Pilot Pro but with OS 3.5 given the drastically improved screens and changes in formfactor (and here, given a Springboard module)?

============================
Chazzz
dedicated to better ideas...

__________________
Chazzz Fishburn -- [email protected]
dedicated to better ideas...

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