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Posted by BobbyMike on 07-10-2003 02:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

The united countries (including the US) in the UN made it the UN's job.
If you dont like the system work on it, dont go acting on your own...
If you dont like the way the lawinforcement handles your case do you go out and kill the person you think is guilty?

No, they didn't. The UN is a forum where the nations try to work out there differences. If you notice the UN draws all it's armed forces from the countries that agree to respond to a particular event. No nation (that is NO as in none, nada, etc.) has agreed in it's own constitution/charter/laws to allow the UN to dictate to it, or has agreed to do what ever the UN decides is "right". The strength of the UNs decisions rest on the ability of the participating countries to enforce the decision with THEIR might, as the UN has no might of it's own.
aAs to fixing it, it can't work because the structure is set up specifically to harbor dictators and non-democratic nations. True plurality is only possible among true equals. That can't exist in the UN because no country is truly equal with another.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
I totally agree that the UN failed on the Kurd massacre, but in this discussion that is irrelevant. Bush used WMD as the reason to attack Iraq, now it appears they dont exist...
If Bush went to Iraq for other reasons I'm sure a lot less people would have objected... but in that case he would have created a precedent and he would have to liberate countries where he had less interests in...

Once again you're missing the mark. Bush "used" WMD Programs as one of the several reasons to go into Iraq. The data about the Niger connection, which may or may not be factual, was used once in a State of The Union Address, but tellingly not since - not even on the eve of the war.

As to your assertation that the WMDs appear not to exist - as that has not been established you're jumping the gun.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Its not black and white.. its millions of tones of gray...
You can do the wrong thing for the right reasons and vice versa...

You are wrong. There is black and white, just as ther are evil and good. Your refusal to see events in a straight moral viewpoint doesn't negate their existence as such, merely it shows how you view things.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
It is general knowledge that the CIA provided Iraq with chemical weapons and learned them how to use them when Iraq was still an ally...

As did the French, Russians, Chinese and whoever else was an ally. What's your point? That Saddam should have been allowed to keep harboring known terrorists, reward suicide bombers, kill his own people, etc. because of the past? That's ridiculous! You keep acting horrified/dismayed because the US did what the UN said it was going to do (but obviously never intended to do).

You seem surprised that someone actually did something effective, of course you were probably used to the ineffectiveness of the UN and were confused by that. Don't worry, Bush will get re-elected and you'll have a few more years to get used to it.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 07-10-2003 02:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
Don't worry about my logic, I'll try to explain again :Saddam obviously had WMD, we know it because he used them. Suppose he ran out of stock and had difficulties producing new stuff due to the embargo and the UN inspectors searching for production facilities etc. - a perfectly plausible assumption. Under these conditions, it would be perfectly rational for him to make the public believe he had WMD even if this was not true, because it makes sense to assume that potential enemies would be deterred by such weapons, at least to a certain extent.

Exaggerating the true number or force of weapons is a well known and frequent strategy, specially for someone facing a superior force. Even animals use it when they try to look larger than they are. So were specifically is the flaw in that logic?

Since no one objected, I assume we agree that Bush (or at least his administration as a whole) has been lying about the Niger story . The British have admitted they have copied some of their information and argumentation directly from the essay of some student. Also not convincing, if you ask me. Makes you think they didn't have anything better, just like Bush with his bogus Uranium claim.

Sorry if I will not be able to correct all the misunderstandings and errors that will follow my posting right away, I will spend a week in the wonderful Swiss mountains , starting tomorrow.

If you weren't so gosh darned serious about this you would be laughable. Your assumption that Bush lied is your own. Having been in the military I know that intel can be wrong. Bush used that example once, and never again. He didn't use it when he was talking to Iraq, and the world, on the eve of the war. Your fixation on that piece of intel, which the British say was NOT based on the forged documents - is understandable because of your prior view on the war.

This is what you seem to be saying:

A man was spotted leaving his ex-wifes house covered in blood, wearing jeans, running shoes and a black tee shirt with a gun in hand, by a long time neighbor. She is found dead several hours later, killed by shots fired from a 9mm pistol. The ex-husband had been arrested and indicted several months prior to this for assaulting her (and had served time for man-slaughter after killing his brother in a fight). He had been overheard numerous times saying he was going to kill her (and others). The DA reports He had reportedly bought new pistol ammo in the same caliber several weeks before.
The ex-husband says he is innocent and refuses to allow police to search his farm. By the time they get the appropriate warrants (a week later) his registered 9mm pistol cannot be found, neither can a black tee shirt (he had been seen multiple times in the past by many witnesses wearing black tee shirts), nor his running shoes.
On the other hand, his prints were all over her house, he had no alibi for the time of the slaying, his car had been ticketed a block away during the time of murder, and most interestingly she had traces of his skin tissue under her nails. I won't mention the shallow grave with the 16 unidentified bodies found in his basement.
The DA issues a warrant for his arrest and he is killed in a gunfight with police.

Later it is found that the report of his buying 9mm ammo is wrong.

The DA is roasted by the press for unfairly hounding this poor defenseless citizen and causing his demise.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by ToolkiT on 07-10-2003 03:06 AM:

without going into all the sense and nonsense that has been said in this thread I'll post my personal views:

-Saddam is a bad man who should be handled with.
-So should a lot of other dictators
-this should be done by an organization like the UN who has the support of the majority of countries
-UN should be reformed to a more usefull organisation
-US should comply to the ICC in the hague
-Bush has a hidden agenda
-Bush manipulates the public opinion
-WMD probably will never be found in Iraq
-People who complained about the slowness of the weapon inspectors should by now tone down, the US has had full control of Iraq for how long? what did they find? nothing substancial.
-Iraq is no direct thread to the US
-There is no black and white, but many tones of gray, if you dont think so you are even more naive then I, where 2 people fight, 2 people are wrong... it is all about perception... there are good and evil deeds, but nobody is 100% good or 100% evil...
-US is not the police of the world, even though the have the biggest army...
-US needs to open its eyes and start to wonder why so many people hate them (hint: jealousy is not the correct answer)
-Attacking iraq has not made the US a safer place
-unilateral attacks are bad, they are a sign of aggression regardless of the motivation behind it.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-10-2003 03:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

This is what you seem to be saying:

A man was spotted leaving his ex-wifes house covered in blood, wearing jeans, running shoes and a black tee shirt with a gun in hand, by a long time neighbor. She is found dead several hours later, killed by shots fired from a 9mm pistol. The ex-husband had been arrested and indicted several months prior to this for assaulting her (and had served time for man-slaughter after killing his brother in a fight). He had been overheard numerous times saying he was going to kill her (and others). The DA reports He had reportedly bought new pistol ammo in the same caliber several weeks before.
The ex-husband says he is innocent and refuses to allow police to search his farm. By the time they get the appropriate warrants (a week later) his registered 9mm pistol cannot be found, neither can a black tee shirt (he had been seen multiple times in the past by many witnesses wearing black tee shirts), nor his running shoes.
On the other hand, his prints were all over her house, he had no alibi for the time of the slaying, his car had been ticketed a block away during the time of murder, and most interestingly she had traces of his skin tissue under her nails. I won't mention the shallow grave with the 16 unidentified bodies found in his basement.
The DA issues a warrant for his arrest and he is killed in a gunfight with police.

Later it is found that the report of his buying 9mm ammo is wrong.

The DA is roasted by the press for unfairly hounding this poor defenseless citizen and causing his demise.

Did they ever find out he was guilty of killing his wife?
What kind of gun did he have when he was walking out of the house?
All I'm saying it is highly likely he killed her, however it was never proven. It could have been another person who killed his wife... unlikely I agree but possible...
Also it the intel about th 9mm was wrong, was that the only wrong intel??

You get my point?

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-10-2003 03:15 AM:

Damn I should have resisted on that one... This will drag into a long and pointless discussion about semantics...

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Posted by Toby on 07-10-2003 11:36 AM:

Incidentally, I do not have the materials to make napalm in my garage...

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
without going into all the sense and nonsense that has been said in this thread I'll post my personal views:

Ahh...so we don't want to speak plainly. We only want to proselytize. *shrug* OK.

quote:
-Saddam is a bad man who should be handled with.

How is this possible in a world of grays? Perhaps he wasn't bad, but only mischaracterized. Maybe the media's been lying all along.

quote:
-So should a lot of other dictators

What's a dictator in this context?

quote:
-this should be done by an organization like the UN who has the support of the majority of countries

If the UN can't get the support with someone like Saddam, what makes you think that they'll be able to do anything about anything? Why would a new organization do any better?

quote:
-UN should be reformed to a more usefull organisation

Useful to whom? Reformed how?

quote:
-US should comply to the ICC in the hague

We'll get to that right after that effective reincarnation of the UN is done.

quote:
-Bush has a hidden agenda

Which is?

quote:
-Bush manipulates the public opinion

And people think he's stupid...he's obviously a mastermind.

quote:
-WMD probably will never be found in Iraq

If they don't find a bomb, but find all the materials and instructions to make one, is that OK? If they don't find any barrels of chemicals, but find mobile labs and paperwork showing the know-how to cook up VX, sarin, etc. in short order, is that OK? All that gray seems to be making things hazy over here. To me, it's pretty simple. If I've got the materials to make napalm (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) in my garage, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a threat to anyone. If I've got the knowledge on how to make that napalm (or reasonable facsimile) from the materials, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a threat to anyone. But let's say that you're my neighbor, and you see me lighting a cat afire with gasoline. How safe do you feel?

quote:
-People who complained about the slowness of the weapon inspectors should by now tone down, the US has had full control of Iraq for how long? what did they find? nothing substancial.

Seems to me that the US still doesn't have full control of Iraq. Don't start the timers yet.

quote:
-Iraq is no direct thread to the US

No, and I'm no direct threat to you because of that cat, but the guy that lives on the other side of you really doesn't like you, and he's really interested in the stuff that's in my garage. I don't particularly like him much, but my son knows a lot too, and he and I aren't getting along too well right now. He thinks I'm too dictatorial, and we don't always agree on religion.

quote:
-There is no black and white, but many tones of gray, if you dont think so you are even more naive then I, where 2 people fight, 2 people are wrong... it is all about perception...

Then how can you say Saddam is a bad man? Maybe your perception has been wrongly influenced.

quote:
there are good and evil deeds, but nobody is 100% good or 100% evil...

This came out of left field.

quote:
-US is not the police of the world, even though the have the biggest army...

Actually, I'm 99.99999% sure that China's army is substantially bigger, but number of troops don't always mean much.

quote:
-US needs to open its eyes and start to wonder why so many people hate them (hint: jealousy is not the correct answer)

How would you know? I'm sure it's one of many answers.

quote:
-Attacking iraq has not made the US a safer place

The jury's still out on this one. Much like all the prep that went into Y2K, you can view it multiple ways.

quote:
-unilateral attacks are bad, they are a sign of aggression regardless of the motivation behind it.

That's a pretty black and white statement. What happened to the world of a thousand grays?

Posted by MarkEagle on 07-10-2003 01:01 PM:

Re: Incidentally, I do not have the materials to make napalm in my garage...

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
you see me lighting a cat afire with gasoline

YOU make kitty scared!!!

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-10-2003 01:10 PM:

Re: Re: Incidentally, I do not have the materials to make napalm in my garage...

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
YOU make kitty scared!!!

ROFL!

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Posted by Toby on 07-10-2003 02:15 PM:

Re: Re: Incidentally, I do not have the materials to make napalm in my garage...

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
YOU make kitty scared!!!

Nah...kitty has enough sense to know the difference between reality and hypotheticals. Unlike Saddam, I have shown a history of _not_ using the deadly knowledge and capabilities which I possess.

Posted by MarkEagle on 07-10-2003 05:17 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Incidentally, I do not have the materials to make napalm in my garage...

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I have shown a history of _not_ using the deadly knowledge and capabilities which I possess.

Oh... and we're supposed to believe this because you say so? Would the U.N. Security Council support that statement?

__________________

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Posted by Toby on 07-10-2003 05:21 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Incidentally, I do not have the materials to make napalm in my garage

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
Oh... and we're supposed to believe this because you say so? Would the U.N. Security Council support that statement?

Send an inspection team in. Maybe in about 12 years they'll let you know the evidence is inconclusive. They won't be able to find that ring in the backyard either.

Posted by BobbyMike on 07-10-2003 06:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
without going into all the sense and nonsense that has been said in this thread I'll post my personal views:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ToolkiT
-Saddam is a bad man who should be handled with.

Done

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-So should a lot of other dictators

Maybe sooner than you think.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT -this should be done by an organization like the UN who has the support of the majority of countries

Agreed, in theory. When you come up with one that works let us know. Until then should there be a moraturium on ANY action(s) that might offend someones sensibilities?

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT -UN should be reformed to a more usefull organisation [/B]

See above answer.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-US should comply to the ICC in the hague

Ha. We should let others dictate to us what is right and wrong when they permit known dictators and terror nations to have an equal voice? Gimme a break. The ICC is an attempt by countries that have been brushed aside by their own decisions to regain a semblance of control over a world that has left them behind.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-Bush has a hidden agenda
-Bush manipulates the public opinion

That is your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it paranoid as though it may be.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-WMD probably will never be found in Iraq

My opinion is different. Give us more time instead of rushing to judgement.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-People who complained about the slowness of the weapon inspectors should by now tone down, the US has had full control of Iraq for how long? what did they find? nothing substancial.

Your logic falls apart here. the US has had a very short time to find things. The finding of the mobile weapons labs and the centrifuges are a start. Your view of "substantial " is interesting.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-Iraq is no direct thread to the US

Not anymore.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-There is no black and white, but many tones of gray, if you dont think so you are even more naive then I, where 2 people fight, 2 people are wrong... it is all about perception... there are good and evil deeds, but nobody is 100% good or 100% evil...

Again opinion. I believe that your viewpoint harbors evil by making it relative. We do all have evil in us, says so in the Bible. Acknowledging that evil is bad and acting against it is very simple and effective when you view it that way. Your view makes it easier to just stand by, wring your hands and do nothing, permitting the evil to continue. People all over the world used the same argument to justify communism under Stalin. How many millions died because of the Western intellectuals socialist euphoria?

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-US is not the police of the world, even though the have the biggest army...

No we're not, nor do we want to be. We do have the sovereign right to defend ourselves from things we perceive as threats to us. Just as any country does.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-US needs to open its eyes and start to wonder why so many people hate them (hint: jealousy is not the correct answer)

We do know why, it's clearly envy. You're not being honest with yourself. When people hate the US it's usually because they don't like it's actions and want it to do something else. Too bad, we're free. We like it they way. Popular opinion is usually not well thought out.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-Attacking iraq has not made the US a safer place

Yes it has. It has also made Israel and the Mideast safer. Maybe even the rest of the world

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
-unilateral attacks are bad, they are a sign of aggression regardless of the motivation behind it.

No they're not. Inaction is bad as is tolerance of dictators and terror nations because of lack of consensus. I don't believe there will ever be a unified world organization because you will never get everyone to agree what constitutes lawful behavior.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 07-10-2003 06:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Did they ever find out he was guilty of killing his wife?
What kind of gun did he have when he was walking out of the house?
All I'm saying it is highly likely he killed her, however it was never proven. It could have been another person who killed his wife... unlikely I agree but possible...
Also it the intel about th 9mm was wrong, was that the only wrong intel??

You get my point?

I do. That's why we have a disagreemnt. You're view of "millions of shades of gray" makes you (and the UN) ineffective at doing anything worthwhile and productive.
You'll argue points of minutae for years while people die needlessly.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-11-2003 02:24 AM:

I had a long reply but my browser messed up... and I dont have the time to retype it... so you'll get an answer at a later date...

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-11-2003 02:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

I do. That's why we have a disagreemnt. You're view of "millions of shades of gray" makes you (and the UN) ineffective at doing anything worthwhile and productive.
You'll argue points of minutae for years while people die needlessly.

OK, moral delemma for you:
What would you choose, out of 100 people who are suspects, 90 of them are guilty. Would you give the death penalty to all of them just to be sure and avoid them killing more people?

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Posted by Toby on 07-11-2003 10:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
OK, moral delemma for you:
What would you choose, out of 100 people who are suspects, 90 of them are guilty. Would you give the death penalty to all of them just to be sure and avoid them killing more people?

You need to look into a class for better analogies/examples.

Posted by BobbyMike on 07-11-2003 12:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

OK, moral delemma for you:
What would you choose, out of 100 people who are suspects, 90 of them are guilty. Would you give the death penalty to all of them just to be sure and avoid them killing more people?

Why would number of murderers lessen the horridness of the crime?

Maybe you need more sleep before you come up with an example?

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-12-2003 02:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
You need to look into a class for better analogies/examples.

It wasnt ment as an analogy....
I was just curious on the answer of this dilemma...

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-12-2003 02:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Why would number of murderers lessen the horridness of the crime?

Am I saying or implying it would??
I was merely posting a hypothetical scenario which would show me a bit if your thinking..
Its fine if you dont want to answer it, just say so..

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Maybe you need more sleep before you come up with an example?

I posted the question in my afternoon... I'm not old enough to require naps

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Posted by Yorick on 07-12-2003 04:56 AM:

Triangle man, triangle man
Triangle man hates particle man
They have a fight, triangle wins
Triangle man

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