VisorCentral.com - Any interest in a SmartMedia Springboard?

Pages (2): [1] 2 »
Show 20 posts from this thread on one page

VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Springboard Modules (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10)
-- Any interest in a SmartMedia Springboard? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=5576)

Posted by dkessler on 07-31-2000 04:18 PM:

This weekend I picked up a standalone MP3 player (Circuit City has them for $50 after rebates - tell me again why MiniJam should cost $250+?). Anyway, it uses SmartMedia cards to expand the memory and that got me thinking that it would be really nice if I could read the same cards in the Visor.

Inspired by the do-it-yourself CF card project that Taki got translated for us (thanks!!), I started researching what it would take to do the same for SmartMedia cards. I'm a long way from even having a prototype, but it does look like this could be done, with the bulk of the effort being in software.

I'm not 100% certain that I'm going to persue this project, but if I did, what kind of interest would there be in the Visor community? I'd love to hear from people who think they might be interested in a Springboard that would let the Visor read and write to SmartMedia cards. A few specific questions:

1) If you couldn't access data on the card directly but instead had to move stuff back and forth between the card and Visor RAM, would it still be useful? If so, what would it be worth?

2) If the Visor could read from it just like RAM but still needed a special app to write databases into it, would it still be useful? If so, what would it be worth?

3) Obviously, making the SmartMedia card look just like Visor RAM would be the perfect solution, but I'm not sure it's possible. If it was, what would that be worth?

Your feedback is going to determine how seriously I take this project, so let me know what you think. Post here or email me at [email protected]. Thanks.

- Dave Kessler

Posted by Babylon5 on 07-31-2000 06:46 PM:

I was always hoping for a Springboard Compact Flash option for the Visor.

A Smart-Media adapter would be even better. If you have never seen them, those cards are about the same thickness as about 3 or 4 sheets of paper and about two stamps side by side in size. I cannot believe that small, thin thing, can hold 64-megs. It is the thinness that really is amazing to me; did I mention they are very thin?

They are small enough that you could carry several right in the credit card slot of the EB Slipper case and not even know they were there. It would take about 6 to 8 to take up the same space as a credit card.
They are small enough that you could have the springboard have the actual slot for one as well as a small storage compartment that could hold several more. Not that you may even need it if you had a 32 or 64 meg one.

I would be VERY interested if this could work about the same as the 8-meg flash SB as far as having applications and documents available (read only is fine) right from the card.

This would be a MUCH better option than a CF slot because of the small size. I would still take the CF though given the options we have now, which is only the 8-meg SB. I would really like to be able to have more memory storage at once. 32-megs + would be good. I like to keep tons of documents, books, manuals, text files, FAQ�s as well as games available and I am already seeing the limitations of the extra 8-meg SB I have. At $80 each it seems to much to buy another one.

Oh well just my opinion�

Posted by dkessler on 07-31-2000 08:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Babylon5:
I cannot believe that small, thin thing, can hold 64-megs. It is the thinness that really is amazing to me; did I mention they are very thin?

Yep, the form factor of SmartMedia cards really got my attention. I'd been thinking about building up one of the CF adapters (I even have a PCMCIA -> CF adapter on order), but there's just no good way to do that one without either having the card protrude a *long* way from the top of the Visor, or going with a Handspring modem size module. Neither of those options is any good for people who use form fitting cases like the Rhodiana, Vaja, EB Slipper, Ti Slider, etc. I'm still digging up info on SmartMedia sockets, but at this point I think the whole thing could fit in a small size Springboard module :-)

Now, if you like SmartMedia cards, you'll love MMC cards since they are even smaller! Unfortunately the MMC association wants developers to pay $2500 for a copy of the design specs so I don't think I'll be playing with those any time soon :-(

Posted by JHromadka on 07-31-2000 09:11 PM:

Don't forget that the MiniJam works as an MMC reader/writer, and that InnoGear has plans for a standalone MMC module later this year. See my interview with Bob Fullerton for details.

------------------
James Hromadka
VisorCentral.com
Personal Website: http://www.Hromadka.com

Posted by dkessler on 07-31-2000 09:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JHromadka:
Don't forget that the MiniJam works as an MMC reader/writer, and that InnoGear has plans for a standalone MMC module later this year. See my interview with Bob Fullerton for details.

Yes, and I'd very much like to see them get that product out. However, I'd be *very* surprised to see it before the end of the year (and I shudder to think what they might try to charge for it). InnoGear's track record on meeting their release dates is less than stellar, and I've got to believe that every resource they have is tied up trying to get MiniJam and SixPack out the door.

That does bring up and interesting question though - supposedly you can store databases on the MiniJam's MMC cards, but has anyone seen how this is done? Are the databases accesible from the card, or must they be moved in and out of Visor RAM to be used? I would think that review units would be out by now - can anyone shed any light on this capability?

Posted by hrdbyte on 08-03-2000 02:28 AM:

Yea, but if we had a CF Springboard we might be able to share apps and data with the CF slotted TRG Pro's. That kind of cross hardware platform would be great.

Posted by Taki on 08-03-2000 03:23 AM:

Hi Dave & all,

I like smart media card because of its size, as someone said. I read about a company called Sunland Group in a Japanese Palm web site. They say they'll be shipping a "clip-on" smart card reader/writer for "PALM & other PDAs." (Go to Product->Proprietary hardware) There isn't much info or photo at their site but I wonder if they are developing one for Visor. Clear Smart Media Card would look cool with Visor!

[This message has been edited by Taki (edited 08-02-2000).]

Posted by dkessler on 08-03-2000 01:47 PM:

You weren't kidding when you said there wasn't much info on Sunland Group's page However, it looks to me like what they are working on is a reader for Smart Cards ... not SmartMedia cards. Smart Cards are credit cards with memory chips embedded in them. They are quite common in Europe. I expect them to become more common in the US over the next couple years. Current examples are the new Amex blue card and the activation cards for DirecTV DBS receivers. I haven't researched what kind of capacities are available, but the form factor (credit card size) pretty much makes a small size Springboard reader out of the question.

Posted by Taki on 08-03-2000 03:04 PM:

Oops! I thought Smart card & Smart Media Card are the same! Excuse my ignorance...

Posted by SuperStream on 08-03-2000 03:55 PM:

I think an MMC card reader would be very good! I would encourage this project, especially if apps could be run from it like RAM.

Everyone keeps comparing the MiniJam with other MP3 players on price (valid) but I think they tend to forget that much of the price is the removable MMC cards. Innogear should have stuck to their guns and sold a model without any memory cards cause I think people would have psyhcologically gone for that better. But then maybe they would have returned them after failing to find any memory on the market that isnt backordered!

Back to the subject, I definately think a memory "drive" for the visor is in order.

Posted by dkessler on 08-03-2000 04:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by hrdbyte:
Yea, but if we had a CF Springboard we might be able to share apps and data with the CF slotted TRG Pro's. That kind of cross hardware platform would be great.

Does anyone know if TRG uses the standard (MS-DOS FAT) format on it's CF cards or something proprietary? Has anyone ever tried to read a TRG formatted CF card in a WinCE device or a laptop? Making PalmOS memory management work with CF is relatively easy ... making it work within a DOS filesystem on a CF is not so easy. I'm wondering if TRG took the easy way out.

Right now, I'm more interested in memory expansion than data transfer. As such, I wouldn't care if Visor formatted SmartMedia cards couldn't be read in other (non-Visor) devices (until re-formatted). But what does everyone else think of such a limitation?

Posted by Tom LaPrise on 08-03-2000 06:25 PM:

The TRGPro does use plain old FAT for the CF cards.

Posted by adenoid on 08-03-2000 07:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SuperStream:
Everyone keeps comparing the MiniJam with other MP3 players on price (valid) but I think they tend to forget that much of the price is the removable MMC cards. Innogear should have stuck to their guns and sold a model without any memory cards cause I think people would have psyhcologically gone for that better. But then maybe they would have returned them after failing to find any memory on the market that isnt backordered!

Excellent point. We now have:
*CF cards
*SmartMedia Cards
*MMC cards
*Lets include Sony Memory stick just for fun
(I think you can store all your BetaMax movies on these)

Wonder what will shake out in the next few years on these. Using EBay as a yardstick, current price for 32/64MB:
*CF card : $50/$100
*SmartMedia : $60/$120
*MMC : about $80/???? (cannot find, Innogear must have them all)
*Memory Stick : $50/$100

I already have a few CF's lying around that I use for digital camera and transferring files between laptops and camera via a PCMCIA reader.
I ordered a MiniJam, so now I'll also have an MMC card. I currently don't have any SmartMedia, and frankly am going to stay away from them unless I see it as the "leader" (which I don't right now).

Just don't want to invest in a lot of "8-track tapes", if you know what I mean.

Posted by dkessler on 08-03-2000 08:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by adenoid:
Just don't want to invest in a lot of "8-track tapes", if you know what I mean.

I know exactly what you mean! And of course we must not forget Palm's recently promised to support for Secure Digital (which I still haven't been able to find out much about)

What I've learned from researching this project is that each technology is targeted for a different application - which explains why there hasn't already been a shakeout.

Compact Flash - biggest form factor, best suited for "random access" applications. Data can be read directly ... no need to buffer it up in RAM.

SmartMedia - compact, designed for high bandwidth sequential access. Good for storage, but you really need to read the data out into RAM to work with it.

MMC (and SD?) - very tiny, designed for low bandwidth sequential access. Data basically gets in and out of the card via a serial port.

Memory Stick - not small enough and no one wants to pay Sony to license it.

I suspect MMC/SD is going to kill of SmartMedia in the long run. I think CF's future is tied to the success of the PocketPC but it will probably be around for a while. Needless to say, I'm beginning to think my SmartMedia Springboard idea is a dead end. As much as I love the idea of a thin 32+ MB Springboard, I just don't think it will be practical. I suspect my effort would be better spent trying to figure out how to do a more compact CF adapter Springboard.

My thanks to everyone for your input!

- Dave Kessler

Posted by Hoser_back_home on 08-03-2000 09:12 PM:

hey Dave,

Thought i'd ask you if you've seen this site:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconV...visorcf2_e.html

[This message has been edited by Hoser_in_USA (edited 08-03-2000).]

Posted by dkessler on 08-03-2000 09:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoser_in_USA:
Thought i'd ask you if you've seen this site:

Yep, that's the one that got me hooked on this idea in the first place. But there are two problems with that adapter. First is that it's not practical (for me at least) to have the CF card sticking so far out the top of the Visor. Second is that supporting CF storage cards is a LOT harder than supporting I/O cards. Never the less, it's an excellent starting point

Posted by theo on 08-08-2000 07:46 PM:

I got the impression that CF cards are (at least generally) more square than rectangular in shape. I'm thinking the pictures on that page are either using a non-standard size CF card, or have the card hanging out of the slot for display purposes. I saw a CF memory card for a camera, and it was smaller than the springboard slot cover that comes with the Visor. (I wanted to try fitting it inside, but it was in much larger packaging, and inside a glass case, so I didn't get the chance.)

Posted by Yossarian on 08-08-2000 08:48 PM:

I had hoped the MiniJam would have adopted to Smart Media. We have a digital camera at work that uses both SmartMedia and CompactFlash. The SmartMedia is much more reliable in the camera and I still get over the physical and storge size of it.
VST currently makes a Zip Drive that reads Zip, SmartMedia, and CompactFlash. Having one media for many devices (Digital Camera, PDA, etc) would (have) be(en) great. Sony has the right idea, too bad it hasn't caught no with other media that doesn't require huge licencing fees.

Posted by dkessler on 08-08-2000 09:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by theo:
I'm thinking the pictures on that page are either using a non-standard size CF card, or have the card hanging out of the slot for display purposes.

Nope, it's a standard size CF card. They are a bit wider than they are "tall". Using a standard PCMCIA to CF adapter card in the Springboard slot will result in about 8mm of the CF card being "inside" the Visor ... the rest will stick out the top. That's exactly what you see on the homemade CF adapter page.

It may be possible to build a custom CF adapter that keeps the CF card flush (or nearly so) with the top of the Visor and only adds a little thickness - that's something I'm currently researching

Posted by virgilio on 08-08-2000 10:12 PM:

I was hoping that the MP3 player used the SM format as well, but there must be some technical issue with storing MP3s and other files on the same card. At least two MP3 players I've considered purchasing say in their instructions that the SM card must be reformatted and then cannot be used in a digital camera or other application.

Anyone know why this is?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:26 AM.

Pages (2): [1] 2 »
Show 20 posts from this thread on one page