VisorCentral.com - li-ion invasion, AAA retreat

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Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-23-2002 01:23 PM:

li-ion invasion, AAA retreat

Out of curiosity, is there anyone concerned that PDAs are almost universally going the way of non-serviceable li-ion batteries rather than AAAs? Li-ions eventually die, and if you want to make the PDA work again, you need to pay HS big bucks.

I wouldn't be so concerned if reasonable replacement avenues were made available to the customer, but such avenues do not and will probably never exist. These PDA companies are not building in obsolescence--they're building in useable life-span, and they don't make this clear to the customer in bold type from the beginning. THEY SHOULD!

Now there may be large numbers of PDA users who will upgrade before or soon after the life expectancy of their li-ion, but there are probably more who would rather not.

I would rather not.

It's the only reason I'm still using my Platinum, and it's the reason I bought a backup Platinum for the day my current device dies. AAAs are UBIQUITOUS and cheap. In several years, when people are raving about their new ARM processor-powered, OS ?x Palm devices, I will be using my trusty Platinum and AAAs (with the bag load of springboards and Stowayway I own). I will stop using the Platinum because either it breaks, or I decide that it's time to move on to something new. But NOT because HS/PDA Maker forces me to!

It just bothers me that HS, Palm, etc. do not make the reality of li-ions known to the customer and do not provide the option of reasonable replacement. This is like putting a definite term on the usability of a PC, and it's wrong. If people want to upgrade, then that's fine, but to force them to consider that option rather than allowing a reasonable and affordable means of using the same PDA if they so wish is lowball. (Right now one would have to pay 50-80% of the cost of the device for a replacement battery/complete unit.)

Posted by K. Cannon on 07-23-2002 03:22 PM:

I would much rather have AAA batteries in my Prism. However, is the color screen too much of a power drain to make this feasible? I don't know the answer, but I do hate having to lug a charger around when I go on a trip.

Posted by Digisane on 07-23-2002 04:11 PM:

Re: li-ion invasion, AAA retreat

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn
Out of curiosity, is there anyone concerned that PDAs are almost universally going the way of non-serviceable li-ion batteries rather than AAAs? Li-ions eventually die, and if you want to make the PDA work again, you need to pay HS big bucks.

I'm a *wee* bit concerned about it too. But how long will today's Li-ion batteries last before they die? 2 years? 5 years? 8 years?

I can safely assume it would be 5 years before the battery doesn't charge properly again, and another two years or so before they expire completely. I may be wrong, but by then we'd probably have hi-res, color, 64mb and such for only around $130. And we'd not be spending money on any batteries until then. This save us Li-ion users a lot over these years to be able to purchase newer PDAs (and have them expire again - at least until fuel-cells are a reality.)

What I'm more concerned is, will the charge life of Palm PDAs in the future be long enough to be usable? Palm OS 5 supports the ARM processors, and I'm afraid that the higher power will eat into the life of batteries from weeks to just days, like the PocketPCs.

Another thing of concern, will the future Palm OS have backward compatibility for my Palm 3.5 data?

quote:
It's the only reason I'm still using my Platinum, and it's the reason I bought a backup Platinum for the day my current device dies. [b]AAAs are UBIQUITOUS and cheap. In several years, when people are raving about their new ARM processor-powered, OS ?x Palm devices, I will be using my trusty Platinum and AAAs (with the bag load of springboards and Stowayway I own). I will stop using the Platinum because either it breaks, or I decide that it's time to move on to something new. But NOT because HS/PDA Maker forces me to!

You got a backup Plat??? Wow I just hope I never break mine - ever.

Btw, there's this new Sony low-end model (whatever heck model number) that runs on AAAs and monochrome. I guess that's some good sense from the manufacturer for the long term there..

quote:

It just bothers me that HS, Palm, etc. do not make the reality of li-ions known to the customer and do not provide the option of reasonable replacement. This is like putting a definite term on the usability of a PC, and it's wrong. If people want to upgrade, then that's fine, but to force them to consider that option rather than allowing a reasonable and affordable means of using the same PDA if they so wish is lowball. (Right now one would have to pay 50-80% of the cost of the device for a replacement battery/complete unit.)

What I think is that most people would probably be upgrading to newer devices in 6-7 years time and leave the old ones to their kids to destroy. Handspring (and other PDA makers) seem to think this as well and I don't blame their decision - by that time, if the users don't upgrade, the technology around them will probably force them to do so anyway.

If you really wanted to keep using your Platinum for another 10 years, I'll bet there will be third party solutions & parts around it. And I think there will be 3rd party battery solutions for the rechargeable Li-ion replacements as well. Or maybe not. We'll just have to see.

__________________
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Posted by dorelse on 07-23-2002 04:30 PM:

Actually, that's one of the biggest plus's to my Handera 330. I'm using a LIon currently, but since its removable, I can always go back to AA's when it dies.

The Handera is awesome with AA's and the reason I'm keeping it as a backup to my Edge.

On the battery note, I thought most PDA's LIon were rated to last about 2 years...which is why a lot of 3600 series iPaq's are now seeing reduced battery life....(pure speculation on my part.)

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Posted by alight on 07-23-2002 09:12 PM:

Converging Threads

Just noticed that the "Is Handspring Dying?" topic and this one have a lot of material in common .... mainly, the battery issue.

Personally, I don't think any of the handheld mfgrs. have a clue how people use/want to use their devices.

While they're busy pouring our $$ into creating their dream markets, we're busily and quite happily using the devices in very creative, inexpensive, and practical ways.

Since I publish (and don't get me started on the ridiculousness of copyrighting internet books), I'm always delighted to find new avenues and resources for getting content to the folks that want it. Let's face it, even doing everything the least expensive way possible, it still costs something to be able to access the Internet on the most basic equipment. Then there are all the non-US folks who actually have metered service.

I don't think offering people a low cost, battery operated handheld for book reading is going to hurt any of the big players. What ever happened to making a small profit on the sale of a large quantity? Does mass production ring any bells. (Bet it does to the Chinese. In some ways these folks really do think out of the box. Recently read that they're thinking of creating an operating system around Win98 SE - long may she fly!)

Happy trails.

Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-23-2002 09:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
I would much rather have AAA batteries in my Prism. However, is the color screen too much of a power drain to make this feasible?

As far as I understand it, yes, having a backlit color screen would overwhelm the capacity of AAAs. In this case, I understand the use of li-ion. However, HS still ought to make it very clear that li-ions need EXPENSIVE replacement in around 2 years, or overhaul their battery replacement policy and stop being idiotic.

Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-23-2002 09:57 PM:

Re: Re: li-ion invasion, AAA retreat

quote:
Originally posted by Digisane
What I think is that most people would probably be upgrading to newer devices in 6-7 years time and leave the old ones to their kids to destroy. Handspring (and other PDA makers) seem to think this as well and I don't blame their decision - by that time, if the users don't upgrade, the technology around them will probably force them to do so anyway.

Firstly, li-ions can die in as few as two years. Handspring itself says so. To add insult to injury, HS bases the cost for a replacement battery on their standard repair charges. If your device is out of warranty, you're going to pay 50-80% the cost of the device, depending on the model and date of purchase.

Secondly, I don't think the technology will force anyone to move away from a standalone PDA. These devices can and will be used for a long time to come--even if major advances are made. Because these PDAs are standalone and sync just to a computer, one could use it for as long as both devices continue to work and work with each other. (hhmm...well, I might be wrong if Michio Kaku's predictions of cheap-as-paper smart pads become ubiquitous, and in that case we'd be forced to "upgrade" in a way. However, something tells me that his prediction is a bit long. Anyway, by the time technology is that advanced, PDAs as a concept will be old hat and NO ONE will need a PDA. But that's a different story altogether.)

I'm actually not concerned for myself, since I do not use a li-ion powered PDA. Were I a user I would know li-ion expectancy going in and would have weighed the costs with such a purchase. However, my wife and sister do own li-ion PDAs, and they are not tech savvy--neither are many of the people to whom these convenient devices are marketed. They probably have an expectation that their PDA will work for as long as they want or need. They probably also expect that a battery should not cost $99-125! So far, both my wife and sister were not happy when I informed them that one day their li-ion will die and they will be better off just buying new PDA since it is so outrageously expensive for the Handspring/Palm to provide what should be an affordable replacement.

quote:
If you really wanted to keep using your Platinum for another 10 years, I'll bet there will be third party solutions & parts around it. And I think there will be 3rd party battery solutions for the rechargeable Li-ion replacements as well. Or maybe not. We'll just have to see.

Perhaps. I'm not demanding that these companies provide indefinite parts and service--only that they inform customers of the simple facts of the product and provide reasonable means of service. So far they do neither. Informing the customer: Do you know where one finds the li-ion life expectancy on Handspring's website? IN THE CUSTOMER SUPPORT SECTION! That means someone has already purchased a device, drained their battery, and is now wondering, "why won't my device turn on?" This kind of information should be in the device FAQ in the product pages! (It'll make you more upset when I tell you that I had to do a search for battery related issues inside customer support. IT'S BURIED.) Reasonable means of service: Why should someone pay up to 50%-80% the cost of the device for a dead battery? It's just ridiculous, and I think a site like Visorcentral should blow this crap wide open with a front page story...but that's just my opinion.

Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-23-2002 10:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dorelse
On the battery note, I thought most PDA's LIon were rated to last about 2 years...which is why a lot of 3600 series iPaq's are now seeing reduced battery life....(pure speculation on my part.)

You're absolutely correct, and Handspring has also said generally two years.

Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-23-2002 10:17 PM:

Re: Converging Threads

quote:
Originally posted by alight
Just noticed that the "Is Handspring Dying?" topic and this one have a lot of material in common .... mainly, the battery issue.

This thread was actually inspired by that thread. I thought it was a big enough lead that it deserved its own thread.

quote:
Personally, I don't think any of the handheld mfgrs. have a clue how people use/want to use their devices.

I think you're absolutely right. It must be hard to compete in this market, but I do suspect that these companies--now both Palm and Handspring included--have their heads up their butts and are partly inducing their own asphyxiation.

Posted by Digisane on 07-24-2002 06:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn
You're absolutely correct, and Handspring has also said generally two years.

Oh, shoot. Guess I should've checked out the support section.

However - based on my previous experience of Li-ion batts, they last up to 3 years before their life starts reducing, and another 3 before they stop completely. I'm basing my assumptions on that.

Anyways, got my Visor Dlx cheap, sold it same price, and got a Pro new for only extra US$45, so er, who cares. I guess. Maybe I can upgrade to something else again for cheap.

I first chose the rechargeables because AAAs are a real pain to have to carry around and buy and I keep worrying about battery levels since those battery indicators are always off by as much as 20%.

quote:
However I do wished that HS would make the li-ion batts easily removeable & replaceable though.
Secondly, I don't think the technology will force anyone to move away from a standalone PDA. These devices can and will be used for a long time to come--even if major advances are made. Because these PDAs are standalone and sync just to a computer, one could use it for as long as both devices continue to work and work with each other. (hhmm...well, I might be wrong if Michio Kaku's predictions of cheap-as-paper smart pads become ubiquitous, and in that case we'd be forced to "upgrade" in a way. However, something tells me that his prediction is a bit long. Anyway, by the time technology is that advanced, PDAs as a concept will be old hat and NO ONE will need a PDA. But that's a different story altogether.)

...I was thinking of product compatibilty and such with technology 5 years after. (example; ONLY an EXAMPLE - USBs become obsolete or something and you cannot use the cradle). Another thing is that, maybe by then PDAs are so small and cheap that you'd be upgrading anyway.

Anyway, i'm hopeful that the battery technology of 5 years later would advance enough to allow long life on high powered systems. (Fuel cells, somebody make one already!!)

__________________
I'm just a dreamer..

Posted by alight on 07-24-2002 04:32 PM:

Good Day Y'all.

Three things:

1. Anyone interested in unloading a working Neo or Deluxe, please contact me at:
[email protected]
Subject: special needs

I can't afford to offer too much for them but I have a special needs group that I'd like to begin acquiring Deluxes and Neos for.

Be sure to send to:
[email protected]
with subject:
special needs

(Otherwise it goes to "out there somewhere")

2. Seems like these little beauties should be able to be fit with those big old bulky AC adaptors. Would appreciate a reply to this board from anyone with any thoughts/know-how on this.

I go back to the days of the first transistor radios (when "boom boxes" were light years away). One of the first innovations was getting one that came with an AC adaptor. And, yes I know the adaptors haven't changed and sure are clunky. But if you're reading a book near one of those old fashioned things we can an electrical outlet ... hey, I'd reach down or over and plug it in.

3. Got my first pc, a Commodore PET in 1982. Am a long- time net user. However, up until now I've been really against the whole forum concept. Thanks VisorCentral for helping this old dog get a new attitude -at least about this forum.

Posted by Madkins007 on 07-24-2002 10:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by alight
2. Seems like these little beauties should be able to be fit with those big old bulky AC adaptors. Would appreciate a reply to this board from anyone with any thoughts/know-how on this.

Actually, from a techie standpoint, this is not too difficult- the only problem is where to put the actual jack, as it takes up some room. It would be pretty easy to just wire it up so it dangles outside the unit, maybe being stored in the Springboard slot cover when not used.

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Posted by Madkins007 on 07-24-2002 10:36 PM:

Li-Ion batteries offer a few benefits not yet mentioned.

Alkaline batteries, like all batteries (including Li-Ion) contain materials that are hazardous or just harmful to the environment. 1 Li-Ion pack in a PDA replaces 48 or more AAA batteries in our landfills.

Li-Ion packs offer more power and/or a longer drain time in a smaller package. The Edge and the slimline Sony's would not be possible with AAA batteries- nor would most color screen PDAs.

Most Li-Ion battery packages are pretty standardized in size. As they become more popular, more places will be able to replace them cost efficiently. I believe I have already seen ads for similar services with other Li-Ion battery powered devices.

Although most places state that Li-Ion has a two year life, this is misleading in that it is the average MINIMUM life. They actually last between 5+ to 2 years in real life, and the shorter life is usually a result of almost abusive use. Most Li-Ion battery users will see 3-4 years out of their batteries, and most PDA users will replace the device in that time anyway!

(By the way- your PDA screen has about the same life expectancy, especially if it is the older color version. That will also cost you about the same as a new PDA to repair if you send it in, and the cheapest I have seen a Visor B&W screen is $65- about 75% of what I paid for my Neo- with no installation fees.)

This situation is by no means unique to PDAs. I know of many laptop owners who get quite furious when the find out that they have been 'abusing' their laptop batteries and it is going to cost a small fortune to replace them- 1/10th to 1/6th of the cost of the laptop in a lot of cases.

__________________
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!

Posted by Digisane on 07-25-2002 03:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Madkins007
This situation is by no means unique to PDAs. I know of many laptop owners who get quite furious when the find out that they have been 'abusing' their laptop batteries and it is going to cost a small fortune to replace them- 1/10th to 1/6th of the cost of the laptop in a lot of cases.

Could anyone in around these forums teach us how to use our batteries properly to ensure long life? Handspring sure doesn't say anything about maintaining your rechargeable battries. From what I've seen on notebook computer instructions, it says when using for the first time charge it for 24 hrs (depending on manufacturer - HAndspring just says 45 mins) then before wanting to charge again let the batteries drainn completely then charge.

NOT going to drain the batteries completely on my Pro though.

__________________
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Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-25-2002 01:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Madkins007
Li-Ion batteries offer a few benefits not yet mentioned.

Alkaline batteries, like all batteries (including Li-Ion) contain materials that are hazardous or just harmful to the environment. 1 Li-Ion pack in a PDA replaces 48 or more AAA batteries in our landfills.

Sorry, but look at the title of the thread. I didn't mention alkalines. I use AAAs--NiMH AAAS. I have been using the same four NiMHs for the past two years. So I'm producing about as much waste as I would if I used li-ion. NiMHs are surely not as convenient as a li-ion, but in terms of ecological impact, they're on par.

quote:
Li-Ion packs offer more power and/or a longer drain time in a smaller package. The Edge and the slimline Sony's would not be possible with AAA batteries- nor would most color screen PDAs.

You're right. I probably mistitled this thread. I'm not against li-ions so much as I'm against the way they're being implemented and priced. They should not start at $95, and Handspring should have engineered a more cost effective means of replacement.

quote:
Most Li-Ion battery packages are pretty standardized in size. As they become more popular, more places will be able to replace them cost efficiently. I believe I have already seen ads for similar services with other Li-Ion battery powered devices.

As they become more popular. However, they are not that popular yet, nor does eventual popularity help those individuals who already suffer from useless batteries. Furthermore, supposing replacement batteries were available 3rd-party, replacing a li-ion on the current lineup of PDA's is simply user unfriendly, and I would not recommend it to most people.

quote:
Although most places state that Li-Ion has a two year life, this is misleading in that it is the average MINIMUM life. They actually last between 5+ to 2 years in real life, and the shorter life is usually a result of almost abusive use.

Fair enough. I didn't know that.

quote:
Most Li-Ion battery users will see 3-4 years out of their batteries, and most PDA users will replace the device in that time anyway!

But think about Handspring's Visor model. If you have a Pro or Prism and you bought into the idea of springboards and other accessories, you will want your investment to last as long as it can. Unless cash is burning holes in your pocket or have more money than sense, you're not going to want to toss a $600-plus collection of hardware. I've already mentioned my Platinums. I've spent enough on the Visor, keyboard, and springboards that I can't afford to swap to something that isn't compatible with my current host of accessories; unless I want to scrap the amount of usage I current enjoy. Yes, I could own something faster with more memory and a better OS, however I'd have to sacrifice more than those options are worth to me. In other words, I will not replace my device in 3-4 years but in at least two times that amount if I can help it.

In any case, the stubborn and gadget freak user, like me, is not the norm--the stubborn, non-gadget freak user is. These users, like my wife and sister, who are not the first adopters, will want to upgrade to a new device and learn new ways of doing what they already easily do with their current PDAs about as much as they will want to get their teeth pulled.

quote:
(By the way- your PDA screen has about the same life expectancy, especially if it is the older color version. That will also cost you about the same as a new PDA to repair if you send it in, and the cheapest I have seen a Visor B&W screen is $65- about 75% of what I paid for my Neo- with no installation fees.)

This is altogether a different scenario and cannot be compared to the battery issue. B&W LCD screens just do not fail at the rate of li-ion failure, even though LCD failure warnings are expressed by manufacturers. The screen on a PalmPilot Personal that I bought back in 1997 is still as good as the day I bought it. The Casio watch I bought 15 years ago is still fine (although to be honest I no longer use the watch). Unless you shatter it or it stops working from some other hardware related issue, the screen really won't just stop working.

quote:
This situation is by no means unique to PDAs. I know of many laptop owners who get quite furious when the find out that they have been 'abusing' their laptop batteries and it is going to cost a small fortune to replace them- 1/10th to 1/6th of the cost of the laptop in a lot of cases.

Again, I can't say that this is a fair comparison. Don't laptop batteries simply cost more? And isn't the battery a much more crucial element for a PDA than for a laptop? Yes, people regularly use laptops untethered and battery powered, but any experienced laptop user is aware that a power cord is indispensible. A PDA, on the other hand is always dependent on battery power during handheld use (i.e., not while cradled). You simply cannot call your PDA functional without a battery, but the same is not true for a laptop.

I'll try to draw a more fitting comparison: You bought a laptop that depended on a special power supply/cord which had a lifespan of two-five years. This supply failed sometime during that term and you sought a replacement--only to find out that it would cost you 50-80% of the price of the laptop. Now we'd have a situation that resembles the one I'm raising with a li-ion PDA. I'm really addressing both the principle of a company's li-ion implementation and replacement path (price).

Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-25-2002 01:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Digisane
Could anyone in around these forums teach us how to use our batteries properly to ensure long life? Handspring sure doesn't say anything about maintaining your rechargeable battries.

This info is in their customer support section, but like I mentioned in a previous post, it's buried, so don't feel bad about not knowing about it.

quote:
From what I've seen on notebook computer instructions, it says when using for the first time charge it for 24 hrs (depending on manufacturer - HAndspring just says 45 mins) then before wanting to charge again let the batteries drainn completely then charge.

NOT going to drain the batteries completely on my Pro though.

Most laptop batteries are either NiCD/NiMH, which are very different from Li-ion. The former two (especially the first) benefit from full cycling, in other words, greatest depletion possible before charging. Do this with a li-ion, however, and you will be abusing your battery. Li-ions need regular and constant topping off. In other words, charge them whenever and as often as you can. This contributes to long li-ion life. And I wouldn't worry too much about Handspring's recommendation for initial 45 mins charge and complete drain/charge cycle.

Posted by Digisane on 07-25-2002 04:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn
Do this with a li-ion, however, and you will be abusing your battery. Li-ions need regular and constant topping off. In other words, charge them whenever and as often as you can. This contributes to long li-ion life.

It certainly doesn't say so on the Compaq notebook instruction book I have right here. Yes - it's Li-ion.

quote:
And I wouldn't worry too much about Handspring's recommendation for initial 45 mins charge and complete drain/charge cycle.

I wasn't worrying about it. I'm confident of Handspring's instructions of it. Just puzzled over why Compaq says different.

__________________
I'm just a dreamer..

Posted by ragamuffinn on 07-25-2002 08:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Digisane

It certainly doesn't say so on the Compaq notebook instruction book I have right here. Yes - it's Li-ion.

That's interesting. Everything I've ever read on li-ion is that regular topping off is best for the battery, while full cycling is harmful.

quote:
I wasn't worrying about it. I'm confident of Handspring's instructions of it. Just puzzled over why Compaq says different.

No prob. I'm puzzled about that too. Maybe they just published a bad manual.

Posted by tantousha on 07-26-2002 07:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn
Sorry, but look at the title of the thread. I didn't mention alkalines. I use AAAs--NiMH AAAS. I have been using the same four NiMHs for the past two years. So I'm producing about as much waste as I would if I used li-ion. NiMHs are surely not as convenient as a li-ion, but in terms of ecological impact, they're on par.

Yes but most users won't switch to rechargable batteries because Handspring warns against it and to the non-education average PDA user, Handspring is the omnipotent, unquestionable god of PDAs...

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HELLO TG50

Posted by EJSHUMAK on 07-26-2002 07:51 AM:

Non- removable bateries

That's the problem -- not what type of AAA you use -- If we have a built inbattery, there is gonna be a problem if the unit is kept for an extended period of time.
I wonder how long a Li-ion would hold upif just left alone -- not used. I bought a spare Edge for parts and I wonder if the battery will be any use to me if and when the battery dies in one of the Edges we are using on a regular basis?

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