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Posted by dick-richardson on 08-16-2001 11:22 PM:

America's leaders are hypocrites.

I was just reading up on the contigent of Senators we sent over to China and I had to laugh.
1. We admonished China for human rights issues when we have the highest rate of capital punishment anywhere in the world (and have killed more juvenile offenders than every other country in the world combined).
2. We told them that if they wanted to be part of an international community, they'd have to "play by the rules." This included limiting/halting the production of weapons of mass destruction. Ahem, pardon me, Mr. Bush, but didn't you just kiss Putin's ass to try to get his blessing so you could build more of said weapons?
musing inwardly: I wonder how Bush would feel if Putin agreed and started mass producing the same weapons.

What I find even funnier is the average American has no idea what the hell their representatives are doing; the lucky bastards just got voted in by the color of their hat.

[edited to correct a noticed incidence of misspelling]

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 03:44 AM:

I was somewhat corrected by email. The stated reasons for the missle defense program is to shoot down the other guys missles before they hit us. This is true. But there is significantly little difference between a missle to hit other missles and a missle to hit anywhere else in the world. In fact, as the tests have shown, it's quite a bit easier to build the later. And there is nothing in the base that would limit what type of missle gets launched. Putin is correct in that the missle defense would lead to another arms race.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by ToolkiT on 08-17-2001 05:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Putin is correct in that the missle defense would lead to another arms race.

He was very right in that... If you can shoot the other guys missiles out of the sky, that gives you a (false) sense of security and that will lead to building more weapons etc etc.

The status quo (if one party fires a nuke, both parties die) is probably the safest one.. nobody wants to die, so none of the parties fire...

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Posted by ToolkiT on 08-17-2001 05:13 AM:

Re: America's leaders are hypocrites.

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I was just reading up on the contigent of Senators we sent over to China and I had to laugh.
1. We admonished China for human rights issues when we have the highest rate of capital punishment anywhere in the world (and have killed more juvenile offenders than every other country in the world combined).
2. We told them that if they wanted to be part of an international community, they'd have to "play by the rules." This included limiting/halting the production of weapons of mass destruction. Ahem, pardon me, Mr. Bush, but didn't you just kiss Putin's ass to try to get his blessing so you could build more of said weapons?
musing inwardly: I wonder how Bush would feel if Putin agreed and started mass producing the same weapons.

What I find even funnier is the average American has no idea what the hell their representatives are doing; the lucky bastards just got voted in by the color of their hat.

[edited to correct a noticed incidence of mis-spelling]

All very true I'm afraid...

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Posted by miradu on 08-17-2001 05:56 AM:

I hate america

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-miradu

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 06:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by miradu2000
I hate america

I think America has a lot of potential. It leaves a bad impression when we piss it down our legs in such a spectacular fashion.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by VTL on 08-17-2001 06:34 AM:

If you hate America, I assume you will leave when you get old enough to do so without getting your parent's permission?

To respond to Dick's specific criticisms:

1. We do not have the highest rate of executions, by a long shot. China, for example, executes untold thousands every year, usually without much of a trial. I haven't heard any figures on so-called "juvenile" executions, but I somehow doubt they are very picky about ages.

By most accounts, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other garden spots also execute a lot of people.

You are doubtless thinking - those aren't countries we want to be keeping company with. At first blush, that argument has a certain appeal. However, in the examples cited above, they don't get much of a trial, much less the endless appeals convicted murderers get in this country. Here, despite the hysteria you hear in the media, there are rather elaborate procedural protections in place to see to it that everyone gets their "day in court."

The death penalty is a legitimate issue to debate. However, don't use inaccurate data to support your argument.

2. You sort of caught your second error, but I'll plunge in anyway. The President wants to dramatically cut our nuclear arsenal, not expand it. Your attempt to correct the error by analogizing missle defense - a system designed to render "weapons of mass destruction" ineffective - is unpersuasive. Again, there are legitimate arguments to be made on the wisdom of missile defense, but equating them with weapons of mass destruction is not one of them. Your argument is rather like saying - cops shouldn't wear bullet proof vests, it just encourages some criminals to buy bigger guns to try and defeat them.

Finally, I feel compelled to point out that if we were having this little discussion in China - the country visited by the elected representatives you profess to despise - your internet communications would likely be monitored and censored. If you, as a resident of China, posted you hated the government, something considerably worse would probably happen to you.

Fact is, the U.S. is the greatest country in the world - with all due respect to the folks on this board from Canada, Australia, and other parts abroad. You don't like it, feel free to emigrate. Plenty of folks are dying - some literally, unfortunately - to come here and take your place.

Posted by VTL on 08-17-2001 06:34 AM:

On reflection, I can't believe I wasted my 500th post even engaging in this argument.

Posted by miradu on 08-17-2001 06:45 AM:

ok, I don't hate america.

I hate the curruptness of the government, and how every big corporation can get the laws the way they want them, and beecause of that, the people's free speech is going away in ways never before seen.

I hate how the military get's untold amount of money, wasted - when there are many better things to do with it.

I hate how certain services, aren't getting the funding they need - when they deperatly need it.

I dislike that the country needs to turn to charter schools (sorry dietrichbon, but I really am into full public), becuase it cannot keep up and create more good schools. or fulfil the needs that people want.

I love freedom - and I have still most of it. I wish the code I write were to be considered free spech, I wish that discrimination would go away, that gay, straight, black, white - everybody could jsut get together. I hate the goverenment beings so blind to what people are telling them. I hate the mainly republican ideas, that women shouldn't have a choice, and if they get pregnant their screwed - sorry charlie, if you ain't born - breathing and all on your own, you are just a fetus, nothing more. And if it means letting the moth get a college eductaion, becasue she didn't ahve to spend her life struggling to take care of you (the kid), I will be glad, because to me it's 2 lives lost, when an unwanted baby is born.

I love commercialism - Why do I have a Visor.

I hate roadtrips see you all lator

I

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-miradu

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 07:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
The death penalty is a legitimate issue to debate. However, don't use inaccurate data to support your argument.

You can quote PBS for the information regarding juvenile execution. As for executions in general, my point - which you glossed over in order to banter semantics - is that as long as capital punishment is an option in America, America is being hypocritical when criticizing another country for the same.

quote:
2. You sort of caught your second error, but I'll plunge in anyway. The President wants to dramatically cut our nuclear arsenal, not expand it.

Wants to and being able to in the interest of national security are two entirely different things.

quote:
Your attempt to correct the error by analogizing missle defense - a system designed to render "weapons of mass destruction" ineffective - is unpersuasive.

Exactly how, pray tell, would they be rendered ineffective? By missles?

quote:
Again, there are legitimate arguments to be made on the wisdom of missile defense, but equating them with weapons of mass destruction is not one of them. Your argument is rather like saying - cops shouldn't wear bullet proof vests, it just encourages some criminals to buy bigger guns to try and defeat them.

Not at all. No one has felt compelled to attack America since the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (their motivation would be an area I'd be pleased to argue with you) without having missles stocked up at our borders with countries who don't happen to see eye-to-eye with us. I'd also point out that I never said we would use their capabilities for anything other than "missle defense." I merely pointed out that they could very easily be put to other, more nefarious, uses. Our representatives in Washington get their panties in a bunch whenever anyone else tries the same, and with good reason. Rather hypocritical of us to expect any different.

quote:
Finally, I feel compelled to point out that if we were having this little discussion in China

we would be working with an entirely different view of the world. One which you seem to blantantly ignore.

quote:
- the country visited by the elected representatives you profess to despise -

Where did I make such a profession?

quote:
your internet communications would likely be monitored and censored. If you, as a resident of China, posted you hated the government, something considerably worse would probably happen to you.

Really? They're pretty blood-thirsty for us to keep grabbing our ankles for, don't you think?

quote:
Fact is, the U.S. is the greatest country in the world - with all due respect to the folks on this board from Canada, Australia, and other parts abroad.

Which you just happen to be a resident of. Hardly impartial, I'd say.

quote:
You don't like it, feel free to emigrate.

How about I try and change it by voting and speaking out about areas I see a need for improvement? I'm sure as hell not going to shut up and/or move out because you don't like it. You are very thin-skinned WRT to criticism of America. This isn't the garden of Eden.

quote:
Plenty of folks are dying - some literally, unfortunately - to come here and take your place.

And some are dying to get out. Pun intended.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 07:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by VTL
On reflection, I can't believe I wasted my 500th post even engaging in this argument.

Why is your 500th post any more special than your 316th?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 07:18 AM:

I'm surprised you vote at all, VTL. Every candidate that's ever run has pointed out areas in which America needs to improve. I'd be interested to see how well a politician would do in a campaign race with the slogan, "America - as good as it's going to get."

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 07:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by miradu2000
I hate the mainly republican ideas, that women shouldn't have a choice, and if they get pregnant their screwed - sorry charlie, if you ain't born - breathing and all on your own, you are just a fetus, nothing more. And if it means letting the moth get a college eductaion, becasue she didn't ahve to spend her life struggling to take care of you (the kid), I will be glad, because to me it's 2 lives lost, when an unwanted baby is born.

Let's go with abortion for a minute. I have a couple of question for you, Mike.

1. Who's choice was it to have sex?
2. What happens when you have sex?
3. Is the fetus alive?
4. Are there options for unwanted children aside from abortion?

I'd also point out that my mother - who had the "choice" - worked her way through college while raising me and working a full time job. Alone, through no fault of her own.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Yorick on 08-17-2001 07:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
1. Who's choice was it to have sex?

Without trying to be high-and-mighty, sometimes it's forced.
And since it's been brought up, why does no one consider the zygote? What makes the fetus so special, just because it's further developed?

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Posted by Potus on 08-17-2001 10:31 AM:

Death Penalty

"We'll give 'em a fair trial. Then we'll hang 'em."

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Posted by septimus on 08-17-2001 12:52 PM:

You know, all this would be so much easier if everybody would just admit that Paul Wellstone has the directly revealed word of god written down in his little campaign bus. I mean, really, come on.

D-R... are you looking to repeat the scale of our religious discussion in the political arena w/ others?

VTL: Sweeden is better than America in many ways. But I'm sticking with America, I'm all for individualism.

All: I'm willing to bet that a lot of these problems are directly caused by, you guessed it, bad campaign finance.

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Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 03:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Without trying to be high-and-mighty, sometimes it's forced.

True. But due to trauma, only .1% of rapes result in pregnancy. For those .1%, I haven't been able to resolve the conflict in my mind.

quote:
And since it's been brought up, why does no one consider the zygote? What makes the fetus so special, just because it's further developed?

I do.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 03:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn
D-R... are you looking to repeat the scale of our religious discussion in the political arena w/ others?

You too.

quote:
All: I'm willing to bet that a lot of these problems are directly caused by, you guessed it, bad campaign finance.

I agree, partly.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by chuckster on 08-17-2001 03:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by miradu2000

I hate the mainly republican ideas, that women shouldn't have a choice, and if they get pregnant their screwed - sorry charlie, if you ain't born - breathing and all on your own, you are just a fetus, nothing more. And if it means letting the moth get a college education, because she didn't have to spend her life struggling to take care of you (the kid), I will be glad, because to me it's 2 lives lost, when an unwanted baby is born.

I felt like responding to this comment as well. The point of who decided to have sex...etc. has already been made, and I agree with what dick-richardson has said. My biggest concern however does not just deal with the unborn child's mother. Where is the father? What upsets me more than anything today, is that when young girls get pregnant, the guy tends to disappear. If the couple is "adult enough" to have sex, then they should be "adult enough" to take on the responsibility of their actions. I wish more men would take on the responsibility of father. But no, they push all of the trouble onto the girl and walk away.

There would be no such problems, if society in general had any morals. I feel as though the media has corrupted our once beautiful nation. Look at the filth that can be seen on TV. 10 years ago, you wouldn't have heard 99% of the references to sex and immorality that you hear today. But little by little, the media has slowly desensitized the people of out country.

It is sad to see all of the problems, and I have compassion on those who find themselves in hard situations like the mother of an unwanted child. I hope and pray that those who are in that situation will learn and grow from their troubles and sorrows. I admire those women who do take full responsibility. 2 lives aren't lost at all. The mothers life can be saved. She can learn and grow, and make things worth it. And as for the child, he has the opportunity to live. What a blessing. Life is a time to learn and grow. Although there is so much pain, and suffering in the world, the opportunity to live is worth every bit of it.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-17-2001 03:43 PM:

chuckster and miradu, sweeping generalizations are only going to piss people off.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

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