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Posted by clulup on 03-23-2003 08:27 PM:

Dixie Chicks

The Dixie Chicks story (saying something against Bush, not being played on the radios any more despite apology) is very well known at least in the German speaking part of Europa (as well as the Freedom Fries). The Dixie Chicks were even invited to the biggest Saturday night TV show in Germany/Switzerland/Austria because of that.... They were offered asylum, so to say, don't know if they will take it, though.

Posted by KRamsauer on 03-23-2003 10:17 PM:

Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
The Dixie Chicks story (saying something against Bush, not being played on the radios any more despite apology) is very well known at least in the German speaking part of Europa (as well as the Freedom Fries). The Dixie Chicks were even invited to the biggest Saturday night TV show in Germany/Switzerland/Austria because of that.... They were offered asylum, so to say, don't know if they will take it, though.

That's hilarious. Especially from a country whose leader realized the same would have happened to him and his elected office if he didn't run on a purely anti-American platform.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 03-24-2003 06:39 AM:

Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
That's hilarious. Especially from a country whose leader realized the same would have happened to him and his elected office if he didn't run on a purely anti-American platform.

? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say... please explain..

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Posted by clulup on 03-24-2003 09:03 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say... please explain..

I guess KRamsauer was referring to Kanzler Schr�der who got some extra votes because he was explicitely against the WAR (at this point in time, without UN mandate, against international law, without clear basis, etc.). He is not and was never anti-american, though, don't get things mixed up.

Plus, the Dixie Chicke were of course not offered asylum by the German government, only by the showmaster, and only jokingly.

Posted by KRamsauer on 03-24-2003 02:55 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by clulup

I guess KRamsauer was referring to Kanzler Schr�der who got some extra votes because he was explicitely against the WAR (at this point in time, without UN mandate, against international law, without clear basis, etc.). He is not and was never anti-american, though, don't get things mixed up.

I believe he portrayed an anti-american attitude during the campaign, portraying himself as a crusader against American power. The most important thing, though, is that he struck this tone merely to satisfy the electorate at the cost of real issues, now showing up and slamming him in approval numbers.

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Posted by KRamsauer on 03-24-2003 03:01 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say... please explain..

Eh, it wasn't too clear, was it? A few (additional) things I find funny (not haha funny, but interesting):

All of a sudden Germans respect country music artists.

Germany is hardly a bastion of free speech and here they are criticizing us for exercising our right.

With no military to speak of, when *would* Germany ever think force is the answer.

As they concentrate on Iraq, their economy is going to pieces (and in my opinion, due to deep structural problems, will not get better, even in the long term, without severe and painful changes)

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Posted by ToolkiT on 03-25-2003 01:12 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Eh, it wasn't too clear, was it? A few (additional) things I find funny (not haha funny, but interesting):

All of a sudden Germans respect country music artists.

I think more people in germany than you realize like country music.. But I agree it is a bit funny

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Germany is hardly a bastion of free speech and here they are criticizing us for exercising our right.

Huh? am I reading this right? Do you say germany has no freedom of speech? or does not advocate freedom of speech? Whatever gives you that idea?

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
With no military to speak of, when *would* Germany ever think force is the answer.

In recent history Germany supported quiet a few UN military actions.. and their army is not that small either.. they just dont spend billions on it like the US does... they feel that money could be better spend elsewhere..

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
As they concentrate on Iraq, their economy is going to pieces (and in my opinion, due to deep structural problems, will not get better, even in the long term, without severe and painful changes)

Are you referring to the german economy? What makes you think that is going so terrible bad? Yes the unification had its backlash on the German economy, but nothing that isnt fixalble in the near future... besides that Germany is part of the EU which makes their international position stronger..

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Posted by KRamsauer on 03-25-2003 03:25 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Huh? am I reading this right? Do you say germany has no freedom of speech? or does not advocate freedom of speech? Whatever gives you that idea?

Yes, that is what I'm saying. In Germany they have outlawed many political parties (at least two that I've heard of in the last few days) and you cannot display any pro-Nazi material. Of course the Nazi's were evil and anyone sympathizing with them is a horrible person. That said, free speech is only worth something when it's protecting objectionable ideas. France has similar laws (leading them to demand of Yahoo to pull all suspect goods from their auctions, even those affecting other countries).

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Are you referring to the german economy? What makes you think that is going so terrible bad? Yes the unification had its backlash on the German economy, but nothing that isnt fixalble in the near future... besides that Germany is part of the EU which makes their international position stronger..

It stems from market inflexibilities, but I'm not going to get into it here. When you combine that with the demographics, low immigration, low birthrates and generous pensions, I think you are going to find a huge problem in Germany over the coming decades.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 03-25-2003 03:44 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer

Yes, that is what I'm saying. In Germany they have outlawed many political parties (at least two that I've heard of in the last few days) and you cannot display any pro-Nazi material. Of course the Nazi's were evil and anyone sympathizing with them is a horrible person. That said, free speech is only worth something when it's protecting objectionable ideas. France has similar laws (leading them to demand of Yahoo to pull all suspect goods from their auctions, even those affecting other countries).

Freedom of speech has its limits.. spreading hate is one of them..
I totaly agree with the ban on neo-nazi hate propaganda.

As for those banned political parties, I assume you are referring to the RAF (Rote Armee Fraction) That was not a party, that was a terrorist organization... Al Quaida wouldn't be allowed to be a political party in the US either I assume...

As for the economy thing lets not go there indeed.. we allready had that discussion in another thread...

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Posted by KRamsauer on 03-25-2003 05:18 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Freedom of speech has its limits.. spreading hate is one of them..
I totaly agree with the ban on neo-nazi hate propaganda.

As for those banned political parties, I assume you are referring to the RAF (Rote Armee Fraction) That was not a party, that was a terrorist organization... Al Quaida wouldn't be allowed to be a political party in the US either I assume...

I'm a strong believer in freedom of speech. *I* think it's a good thing. But in my statement before I merely said Germany restricts speech, and is hardly a "bastion of free speech" I think is the term I used. Thanks for supporting me.

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Posted by KRamsauer on 03-25-2003 05:19 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer

I'm a strong believer in freedom of speech. *I* think it's a good thing. But in my statement before I merely said Germany restricts speech, and is hardly a "bastion of free speech" I think is the term I used. Your assessment seems pretty much spot on. Thanks for supporting me.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 03-25-2003 05:24 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer

I'm a strong believer in freedom of speech. *I* think it's a good thing. But in my statement before I merely said Germany restricts speech, and is hardly a "bastion of free speech" I think is the term I used. Thanks for supporting me.

I guess it is just a matter of different definitions, freedom of speech IMHO is not without boundries. If your freedom of speech hurts others I believe the freedom of speech should have a lower priority than other laws... In the US there is a big lobby that places freedom of speech above other laws...

But even with that subtle difference both Europe and US are both fighters for freedom of speech...

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Posted by clulup on 03-25-2003 02:37 PM:

Germany vs. US freedom of speech

So how about freedom of speech in the US? How many TV stations have shown Michael Moore's full 45 seconds "speech" against Bush when he got his oscar? In contrast to most US citizens I have the opportunity of seeing both US and European news about the war, and I can tell you, there is a huge difference. Call it self-censorship or whatever, but certainly not freedom of speech!! I have no problem with the fact that Neo-Nazis (or Al-Qaida) and other extremist groups are not allowed to publicly spread their hatred.

And: yes, the ecomomical situation in Germany is difficult. But (as in most European countries) there is nothing nearly as bad as the slums in the US. Everybody even has health insurance, can you imagine? The per capita expenditures on health services in Switzerland is about the same as in the US. BUT: major parts of the US population hardly get anything of these expenditures. Fair enough, Germany went into some wrong directions, but the US are certainly no role model, if you ask me...

And: yes, the German expenditures for their army are smaller than those of the US. That used to be different 60 years ago, remember? So try to appreciate some historical reluctance as well. Think of Japan: their army is not allowed to act abroad at all.

Posted by Toby on 03-25-2003 03:12 PM:

Re: Germany vs. US freedom of speech

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
So how about freedom of speech in the US? How many TV stations have shown Michael Moore's full 45 seconds "speech" against Bush when he got his oscar? [...]

I have no idea what stations may or may not have shown of the cow beast, but it definitely has nothing to do with the government censoring anything. The Academy made it well known before the awards that they were not going to tolerate much rambling in the interests of keeping the show moving (and even still it was the lowest rated Oscar ceremony in quite a while). Even something as innocuous as a person thanking more than 5 people would cue the orchestra to play to commercial.

Posted by KRamsauer on 03-25-2003 03:38 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dixie Chicks

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
But even with that subtle difference both Europe and US are both fighters for freedom of speech...

That's true. There are a *ton* of ways the two are the same. There are obviously a bunch that are different. Despite all the rhetoric (and Freedom Fries and George W. Hitler references) I don't think anyone truly believes the world would be better without the other.

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Posted by KRamsauer on 03-25-2003 03:43 PM:

Re: Germany vs. US freedom of speech

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
So how about freedom of speech in the US? How many TV stations have shown Michael Moore's full 45 seconds "speech" against Bush when he got his oscar? In contrast to most US citizens I have the opportunity of seeing both US and European news about the war, and I can tell you, there is a huge difference.

I'm surprised you see no difference between private parties passing judgement on ideas and the government outlawing them. Okay, so it's a documentary film maker voicing his objection to the war? GASP! A hollywooder not agreeing with a conservative president. I think the reason it wasn't repeated over and over (I did see it twice, actually) was that it wasn't news.

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
And: yes, the ecomomical situation in Germany is difficult. But (as in most European countries) there is nothing nearly as bad as the slums in the US. Everybody even has health insurance, can you imagine? The per capita expenditures on health services in Switzerland is about the same as in the US. BUT: major parts of the US population hardly get anything of these expenditures. Fair enough, Germany went into some wrong directions, but the US are certainly no role model, if you ask me...

Granted, those are things that make it (for some) nicer to live in Europe. You are getting too defensive. I'm not saying Europe is a horrible place to live. I'm just saying in my analysis, the structural situation is going to lead to huge problems down the line. Chiefly, I'm having trouble finding how they are going to pay for said benefits when retirees are 40% of the population.

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
And: yes, the German expenditures for their army are smaller than those of the US. That used to be different 60 years ago, remember? So try to appreciate some historical reluctance as well. Think of Japan: their army is not allowed to act abroad at all.

I understand the historical reluctance. Again, that is beside the point, though. The point is the Europeans are given one choice in any potential conflict because they cannot contribute significantly to the activist solution.

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Posted by clulup on 03-25-2003 04:07 PM:

Re: Re: Germany vs. US freedom of speech

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
I understand the historical reluctance. Again, that is beside the point, though. The point is the Europeans are given one choice in any potential conflict because they cannot contribute significantly to the activist solution.

It's not true that Germany/Europe never chooses action when it comes to conflicts - after all, also some German soldiers died in Afghanistan. But I agree that Europe should focus more on military power (and possibly on unity regarding foreign politics...), specially to stop dependance on the US or to balance the unilateral, shortsighted and arrogant way the present administration acts. It was truly a shame for Europe that it was unable to clean up the mess in former Yugoslavia alone. The diversity of Europe is certainly a problem in many ways, but I guess this also allows a more realistic and less egocentric view of the world.

Posted by Toby on 03-25-2003 08:56 PM:

For all those laughing at the 'freedom fries' and Dixie Chicks debacles, I'm wondering if you find this just as laughable.

Posted by KRamsauer on 03-25-2003 10:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
For all those laughing at the 'freedom fries' and Dixie Chicks debacles, I'm wondering if you find this just as laughable.

Seems silly to me, but perhaps a bit more justifiable. A given Freedom Fry was probably not made in in Chirac's country, and therefore no assistance would be sent to Freedom. Of course Freedom Fries were invented by a Belgian (or so I've heard).

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Posted by ToolkiT on 03-26-2003 01:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
For all those laughing at the 'freedom fries' and Dixie Chicks debacles, I'm wondering if you find this just as laughable.

Both are silly to me... but I have to say the german 'no coca cola' thing is clearly a tongue in cheeck response to the recent 'boycot' in the US...
What a lot of americans don't realize is that if they start boycotting people, people will respond by boycotting the US... I'm not sure about the import/export ratio of the US, but it could pose a mayor problem..

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