VisorCentral.com - HandSpring Pocket PC?

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Visor & Deluxe (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)
-- HandSpring Pocket PC? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=1113)

Posted by foo fighter on 03-06-2000 02:42 AM:

I've been hearing many rumors flying about Handspring coming out with a Pocket PC (Rapier). Does anyone have more information on this topic?

It seems highly improbable in my opinion, but it is possible Handspring could license Windows CE and add such a device to their product line-up.

Posted by yucca on 03-06-2000 07:13 AM:

Read an interview with Hawkins on ZDNet (?), and he said that they are committed to the Palm OS for now; but they would consider other alternatives if they think they could build a better mousetrap with another OS. Note that this latter statement was made in the context of their rolling their own OS.

Posted by yardie on 03-06-2000 01:10 PM:

Why would Handspring choose buggy WinCE has an OS for its PDA? And why would Handspring reinvent the wheel and release its own OS?

I can see Handspring using one of two OS -- the Palm OS for the plain-and-simple-device crowd and the Linux OS for the I want-it-all-in-my-pda crowd. Both OS are stable and there is a great deal of following (by developers) for them.

What do others think?

Posted by foo fighter on 03-06-2000 02:38 PM:

I wouldn't hold the convention of Windows CE being buggy if I were you. I've seen Rapier (WinCE 3.0 for pocket pc), and I can say that it's extremely stable. It's at least as stable as Palm OS, possibly more. It's also far more powerful. It supports true multitasking, which means I can listen to an MP3 track while browsing through AvantGo channels or reading my email. For that reason, coupled with the fact that most of the upcoming Pocket PC devices will be noticeably thinner and lighter than earlier versions, will make Pocket PC a major threat to the "palm economy".

I truly hate to say this but the truth is that the Palm is losing it's status as a cutting edge device. I own a Casio Cassiopeia E-100 (as well as a Palm Vx) and I must say the Palm devices (including the Visor) don't hold a candle to it! It can play MP3 tracks, MPEG video player (I have a brief cut of Star Wars: Episode One), has industry standard Compact Flash, one button backup, and blazing fast speed. And all of the built-in apps (Pocket Outlook) are far superior the comparable Palm apps which require 3rd party developers to add on those features to the platform.

[This message has been edited by foo fighter (edited 03-06-2000).]

Posted by mxgian on 03-06-2000 03:27 PM:

FF,
Everything you said is probably true (I don't own a WinCe Device). But what it also comes down to is what you need the darn thing to do. I don't care to listen to an MP3 while I write my email or am looking up an address, maybe you do.

But my point is that it's not a battle of winner take all, i think there will always be people that want one or the other, at least for the forseeable future. Though personally I would never accept a device with a Microsoft OS, I'm only using one now because I have to, I hope that won't be the case with my PDA.

I think it'll be a few years before we get a mini-computer in our pocket that'll replace the computer on our desktops. But then again it begs the question--how many of us really want that?

Minh

Posted by yardie on 03-06-2000 04:11 PM:

FooFighter:

Palm Devices and WinCE devices are aiming at two different and distinct markets. Wince Devices are aimed at folks who basically want a mini-pc with all the features in the world, while Palm devices are aimed at those that want just simple device that have one or two main functions. Palm devices were not meant to replace PCs or notebooks. I can't say the same for WinCe devices.

Just my 2 cents.

Posted by yardie on 03-06-2000 04:13 PM:

Just had a thought. How about a Visor Palm Edition, a Visor WinCe edition and a Visor Linux Edition? Wouldn't that be cool? Talk about choices...

Posted by skaman35 on 03-06-2000 05:55 PM:

Well, it truth it really is handsprings os, they may not own the right or whatever to it, but they did create it, so i see no need for them to turn there backs and run from the os they, themselves created.

Posted by Eug on 03-06-2000 06:57 PM:

I don't think one can really compare the E-100 to the Visor Dlx directly. Casio is MUCH more expensive than the Visor. It does more, but according to my friends who have owned them, they find it somewhat less stable.

I looked at getting the Casio, but the things that finally pushed me to Visor/Palm was:

1) Compatibility. Everyone and their dog has a Palm, and the software is everywhere.
2) Cost. The Visor does what I need it to do at a much lower cost.

The E-100 is also slightly bigger and heavier. However the E-100 is probably "better" for some people.

They both seem like good machines, but in reality I don't think they really are in the exact same market although they are marketted that way.

As for MP3, I don't think I'm going to use either the Visor or the Casio for that. Too expensive per Mb. I encode my own MP3s for better quality, and most files are about 6 Mb. So, even 64 Mb gives me all of 11 songs. Personally I'm waiting for a portable MP3/CD player (reads MP3 off standard CD-ROM), which are supposed to be out this year. (If you think I'm dreaming, I already own a standalone MP3/CD/DVD player for my stereo system that works that way.)

------------------
Eugene Hsieh
Editor, VisorCentral FAQ
Come visit my homepage.

[This message has been edited by Eug (edited 03-06-2000).]

Posted by Gameboy70 on 03-06-2000 07:21 PM:

A WINCE module for the Visor? Sounds like pure fiction. Much more plausible, on the other hand, is a Linux module since the imminent Yopi is using Linux. Since the OS is under the GNU General Public License, any developer will have access to the source code and the binaries.

Posted by Trinition on 03-06-2000 07:30 PM:

This is mainly directed towards foo fighter, but I would like a general audience's opinions too.

I once heard "Just because youc an do something, doesn't mean you should".

Why would you want to watcha a MPEG movie clip on your handheld device? Do you not have the hardware/media to play it ona regular television or computer? Perhaps you want to play it while on an airplane. Is that one short clip from Star Wars all you want to watch? Wouldn't the WHOLE movie be more entertaining? Or how about several movies so you could be entertained more than one time. Is there enough roomf or an entire movie? Is there enough battery life?

And as for MP3s, I prefer the idea of an MP3 player SpringBoard to draining my primary battery source and wasting the primary CPUs time. It is not often enough that I use my device for a long enough period of time to enjoy an entire song. usually it is for quick notes, an entertaining game. I do read articles, occasionally, and I'm sure many users to it more often than I. Perhaps then it would be nice to have some background music. But I beter have a large selection (and, again, a lot of memory), and decent sounds or an un-losable pair of head phones.

Just because you CAN play MPEG clips or play MP3 music in the palm of your hand, doesn't mean you should sacrifice content length, viewing size, battery life and valuable storage capacity to do so.

Posted by mxgian on 03-06-2000 07:36 PM:

Another point, I noticed there's a lot more free software for the Palm. It seems a lot of WinCE software you have to buy.

Minh

Posted by GregMoore on 03-06-2000 10:19 PM:

Sorry to stray from the topic but,
Eug, where did you get your CD/MP3 thingy?
I would want one for my Car. The Rio does not cut it...i need something better

thanks,

------------------
Greg Moore
[email protected]

Posted by Eug on 03-06-2000 10:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GregMoore:
Sorry to stray from the topic but,
Eug, where did you get your CD/MP3 thingy?
I would want one for my Car. The Rio does not cut it...i need something better

Yes, so far I'm not a big fan of the Rio or MiniJam or MP3 capability on the Casio. Even a full 128 Mb would be fairly useless for my purposes. However, a MiniJam seems it could be a much better solution than the Rio, because of the MMC cards. If they became cheap enough, you could use them like you would disks. I am currently using a SmartMedia setup on a digital camera that I'm testing on my microscope - quite convenient. Unfortunately, as of today, both MMC and SmartMedia are expensive.

As for non-PDA players, there are so far no portable players on the market that support a reasonable amount of storage space.

However, look around the net. I've forgotten the URLs, but there are two options that will be available "in the next few months".

1) Portable CD player that reads and decodes MP3 CD-ROMs, ie. 650 Mb per disc. (?$250) About the size of most current portable CD players.

2) Portable MP3 player that has a 5.2 Gb (!!!) hard drive. ($799) Kinda big though - about the size of a first generation portable CD player with battery pack. It does include a built-in LCD screen though.

My current DVD/VCD/CD/MP3 player is not a portable, but is the same size as standard DVD players. There are several: Apex, Raite, Sampo, etc.

If you would like more information, email me at: [email protected]

------------------
Eugene Hsieh
Editor, VisorCentral FAQ
Come visit my homepage.

Posted by ragamuffinn on 03-06-2000 10:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Trinition:
I once heard "Just because youc an do something, doesn't mean you should".

Just because you CAN play MPEG clips or play MP3 music in the palm of your hand, doesn't mean you should sacrifice content length, viewing size, battery life and valuable storage capacity to do so.

Oh booooooyyy...(sorry, Trinition, that part is not directed at you.)

I agree with Foo Fighter, but I also agree with the good reasons for owning a Palm OS device over a WinCE one. Right now, the Palm OS is much easier to use and is, in many ways, a faster device. (I'm not talking about simple processor ratings). There's also more software. It's cheaper. It's smaller. blah, blah, blah..I agree with 'em all. But WinCE (WinPowered PC) can catch up if MS alters some simple UI problems and if 3rd parties drop the price. (And let's not forget B2B arrangements. These can affect not insignificantly the course of things.) Shortly, it will no longer be a debate over "I have what I need," because the prices will be so competitive that you will be tickled to be able to do what you need and, for just a few "pennies" more, what you do not need.

We Palm OS advocates need to balance our scope of the land. WinCE is more robust. Sure we can argue that it does more than we need at a price we're not willing to pay, but I think Foo Fighter was speaking about the pace of development and the trouble that Palm OS is going to face as price, size, and speed become more competitive. Palm OS is huge right now only because it virtually OWNS the niche we belong to, and our niche is big. But our niche will slowly disappear, or will become absorbed into another.

The evolution of the entire computing industry balked at the idea of "just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should." Let's just take one probably not-as-good-as-others illustration (but I'm picking it because it's somewhat similar to Trinition's attack on .MPG playback on WinCE): AlbumToGo. When this first came out, it seemed silly that people would want to load up pictures on their grayscale Palm devices, which, frankly, still do not have very picture-friendly screens. Even today, on my Visor, I don't like looking at the pictures. I'd rather look at the 4x6 color photograph. But did ClubPhoto carve a demand for AlbumToGo? I think so. The convenience of being able to store an album on the handheld device is for many worth the trade-offs of lesser clarity and flattened tonal range. With it we can show pictures of friends and family to others very easily (with cool transitions).

Transition to .MPG: I'm sure many of us are aware of the concept of video postcards. Is this too barred behind the restriction of "just becase you can do it..."? On the contrary, this would be an even greater smash than AlbumToGo! So what if the quality and length are sacrificed? I'd kill to have a video postcard of my girlfriend stored on my handheld.

Wouldn't you kill to have something of the sort of your significant other? It's cool!

Don't forget--the platform doesn't have to be restricted to .MPGs. What if a handheld version of RealPlayer was developed? You'd have massively compressed video without a sacrifice in video quality because .rm files are already crappy to begin with. But couple that with affordable wireless communication, and you've got a huge (HUGE) market for wireless, on-demand video content! (AvantGo, are you listening?)

One word on battery life: with LithION this problem seems to be slowly becoming not so problematic.

This industry is saying, "To heck with what people want. We'll give them that, of course. But we'll make them want what we want them to want, and then become the best channel for the fulfillment of those wants." This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Surely you haven't forgotton that the industry started and immediately faced the question Who needs a personal computer?! Of course the people who were stuck in lines waiting for mainframe time didn't ask this, but the majority of future consumers did. I don't want to simplify the development of the whole computer economy, but what I've mentioned is one aspect of it. Now, the computer is everywhere--on our desks, in our palms, and soon, even in our toasters. (I still don't know why I would need a computer in my toaster, but I'm waiting for the Silicon Valley and Redmond geniuses to tell me why I really want one in my toaster. I know they'll convince me...

)

[This message has been edited by ragamuffinn (edited 03-06-2000).]

Posted by CompuPika on 03-07-2000 01:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn:
Now, the computer is everywhere--on our desks, in our palms, and soon, even in our toasters. (I still don't know why I would need a computer in my toaster, but I'm waiting for the Silicon Valley and Redmond geniuses to tell me why I really want one in my toaster. I know they'll convince me...

Oh, please allow me. Your toast will never be burnt, it will automatically sence what you want on top of your toast and put it on for you (assuming that you pay $150 for the special jam/toast color software and jam tubes, except the jam formula has 63,000 bugs, 2 of which make it completly horrible in taste, but you need this, right?), oh, also, it increases your energy bill so much you can barely afford to get a slice of toast. Oh, and I almost forgot, because Microsoft made it, so if you don't get it your toaster will become obsolete and none of the newer slices of bread you buy at the grocery store will work with your old toaster, right?

[This message has been edited by CompuPika (edited 03-06-2000).]

Posted by yardie on 03-07-2000 03:22 AM:

Hahaha COmpupika...funny Stuff.

Anyways I do believe that future Palm OS PDAs will be more feature rich. The recent addition of color is just the beginning. Cell phones and other devices are now entering the market that Palm Devices are in..offering the same basic tools found on the the palms and visors. To differentiate themselves in the marketplace, Palm OS devices will have to do a lot more than the basics and start to add more features. I am sure Handspring thought of this when they developed the springboard slot. Needless to say, a lot of Palm Pilot users switched over to the Visors because of this.

This also goes to show that sometimes people don't know that they want something until they try it and see how it can make things better for them.

Posted by Eug on 03-07-2000 04:31 AM:

Well, I'm glad there's a lot of stuff we don't "need" out there. Otherwise, we'd always be status quo.

I didn't "need" DSL until a few months ago. Now I find it far too slow... and my first modem was 300 baud. (I paid ~$200 US for the thing!)

As for the WinCE machine... I would buy one of those over the Visor if it suited my needs, and if the support for it was better. I have chosen the Visor, but I like having options. My needs may change. Competition = good.

I look forward to Microsoft's new PDA OS. Maybe it will blow Palm OS away, and will be more appropriate for the palm-sized PDA market than Win CE. Or maybe it won't, but will stimulate Handspring/Palm to come up with something better. Either way, we, the consumers, benefit.

------------------
Eugene Hsieh
Editor, VisorCentral FAQ
Come visit my homepage.

[This message has been edited by Eug (edited 03-06-2000).]

Posted by ragamuffinn on 03-08-2000 09:36 AM:

And so it begins...

PocketPC will include versions of Word and Excel, which will natively support PC Word and Excel file formats! Foul! I call foul! Isn't file support one of the holy grails for the handheld world? ...this hurts...

Let's just hope that the UI is really bad--then we can at least walk away with some sliver of pride.

Read it and weep here: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/n...2456852,00.html

[This message has been edited by ragamuffinn (edited 03-08-2000).]

Posted by Eug on 03-08-2000 01:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ragamuffinn:
PocketPC will include versions of Word and Excel, which will natively support PC Word and Excel file formats!

Good. Progress is always welcome. Hopefully someone will make a better translator/doc file manager for the Palm. If it means even altering the Palm OS, so be it.

------------------
Eugene Hsieh
Editor, VisorCentral FAQ
Come visit my homepage.

[This message has been edited by Eug (edited 03-08-2000).]

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