VisorCentral.com - ADHD: real or BS?

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Posted by Soul Raven on 06-19-2001 11:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Oh pshaw...I'm blushin'

Not really wanting to continue the verbal fellation, but I have to agree dick-richar....er, Josh.

Toby has been nothing but constructive, as far as his posts on VisorCentral are concerned. Granted, he may be critical of me as an individual, but he has always been (regardless of intent) for the good of the community here. Anyway, I probably posted something bone-headed, and deserved to be called on it.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
One of my favorite Stephen King stories (an interesting little vignette called "Rage") would have never been published (and actually is the only one AFAIK that's been excluded from reprints) in today's society. Granted, King was the one who made the choice, but it still shouldn't have been necessary, IMO.

I think all of the Bachman books were some of his best (reading "The Long Walk", I can actually feel the fatigue), but it's sad that real life resembles "Fahrenheit 451" more every day.

I'm sorry I don't have anything more helpful to contribute as far as the ADD/ADHD situation is concerned. I have seen both sides, with a friend who is bitter about being drugged into submission his entire childhood, and another who believes it saved her life. I believe in moderation in all things, and I am glad to see you doing some research (I am hoping VC isn't your only source of medical information), and wish you well. I would be interested in finding out how it goes for you, whichever solution you pursue.

__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

Posted by Yorick on 06-19-2001 11:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
One of my favorite Stephen King stories (an interesting little vignette called "Rage") would have never been published (and actually is the only one AFAIK that's been excluded from reprints) in today's society. Granted, King was the one who made the choice, but it still shouldn't have been necessary, IMO.

King himself noted in an interview that aired on the Discovery Channel earlier this year that he had Rage withdrawn from publication after learning that one of the perpetrators of a school shooting had claimed it as inspiration.
IIRC, he went on to note that when the novel was written, such a thing had never happened, and seemed unlikely.
how times change.

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Posted by Yorick on 06-19-2001 11:46 PM:

BTW (so I can seem to actually be contributing to the thread instead of commenting on the odd things that get brought up to the side, heh heh) there was a program on PBS sometime back in April regarding children with ADD, Ritalin, and how it affects family.
Several children, of varying ages, were profiled. One showed a remarked improvement in concentration, school performance, and sports performance after being put on the drug. Another showed little change and had himself taken off the drugs, but later resumed them. The family of a third was against the idea altogether.

One of the students on American High was also diagnosed with ADD and taking something for it (not, I think, Ritalin).

I watch too much TV, I'm sure, but at least some of it has value

OTOH, I'm always doing other things at the same time.

{this post is brought to you via a mental connection with recent past made due to SoulRaven's post.}

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Posted by Toby on 06-20-2001 12:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
Granted, he may be critical of me as an individual, but he has always been (regardless of intent) for the good of the community here.

Well, thanks for the praise, but I'm not sure what you mean by my being critical of you as an individual. I honestly don't recall ever saying anything about you.

quote:
Anyway, I probably posted something bone-headed, and deserved to be called on it.

Well, perhaps, but perhaps something might have also been taken in a way other than intended? I endeavor to never make a personal remark directed at an individual unless there is some provocation leading up to it. And I really don't remember your ever having crossing any of my personal lines.

quote:
I think all of the Bachman books were some of his best (reading "The Long Walk", I can actually feel the fatigue), but it's sad that real life resembles "Fahrenheit 451" more every day.

True. True.

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
King himself noted in an interview that aired on the Discovery Channel earlier this year that he had Rage withdrawn from publication after learning that one of the perpetrators of a school shooting had claimed it as inspiration.

Yes, this is what I was addressing with:

quote:
Granted, King was the one who made the choice, but it still shouldn't have been necessary, IMO.

I probably should have highlighted it better. There were quite a few good specials on him aired recently.

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
You better watch out. Dietrichbohn has a thing against 4 posts in a row.

I guess I'll have to cram them all into one, then.

Posted by BobbyMike on 06-20-2001 05:51 AM:

Again I take some time off and see what happens!

Josh, my sister and her two sons have been diagnosed (years ago). She's been bugging me for years to be tested (as she thinks I probably have it). I've refused to. My reason for not doing so is simple, I really don't need another label. I'm 38 years old and if I have it, it hasn't stopped me from being a productive, creative, contributing member of society.

If you feel like this disorder has been holding you back (like my sister did), find out all your options and go with the one that makes sense to you. All drugs have side effects, be cautious- you only get one body 'round here. My sister loved what the drugs did for her, AFTER they got the dose right. She had severe problems when they first gave them to her. Her oldest boy (who was diagnosed about 12-14 years ago- long before her- never had problems, per se, with the drugs- he just liked himself better off them.

If you feel like it hasn't been holding you back (like my oldest nephew), move onward.

I was very unfocused while in my teens, dropped out of college (art degree) and joined the Marines. Talk about behavior modification! (I don't endorse, or condone enlistment in the MC as a cure for ADD!!) I did learn how to be much more disciplined about getting what had to be done, done. But I feel like I was able also to remain myself.
I don't mind being able to read, listen to music, and hold up a conversation at the same time. It's fun!

Lots of really creative people probably have ADD. So what. Unless they're cutting off their ears, or unable to cope with day to day living, what's the problem?

I know that the idea of being "well adjusted" is very popular, but what the heck does that mean? From you're posts you seem fine, but your wife probably has a better grasp on how you are.

I also think that not only are we going to see more and more people diagnosed with ADD, we are moving as a society towards a place where we will actually be creating a culture that promotes at least the symptoms of ADD. We seem to be rushing to a place where we are always on, with data streaming at us from all sides. They're putting little TV monitors on gas pumps(!) and in elevators(!) now so you can see all that valuable advertising instead of 'just thinking'!

(stop him! he's going off subject into rantage (is that a word?)!) (my first smiley)

sorry.
Night night,
Michael

PS Toby is a nice man. He also seems quite concerned with personal responsibility, as opposed to 'privilges and rights', which makes him okay dokey in my book. He's a straight shooter and a decent fella. He also can play a mean harmonica and can make some great baby back ribs.

added semi-serious PS about Toby, 'a nice man'(that's a Veggie Tale quote)

__________________
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Posted by dick-richardson on 06-20-2001 07:33 AM:

Well, I meet with Pavlov in a week.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by homer on 06-20-2001 08:08 AM:

quote:
I was very unfocused while in my teens, dropped out of college (art degree) and joined the Marines. Talk about behavior modification! (I don't endorse, or condone enlistment in the MC as a cure for ADD!!)

While not as extreme, that's basically the same story as mine.

Finished two years of college with straight a's, but no direction. I had gone through 4 majors (including art) and finally decided I need to do something...anything.

So I joined the National Guards and went off for 4 months of basic training and schooling.

I was 20 at the time and I really enjoyed it. I think I liked it because it was a complete mental vacation for me. My mind didn't have time to get distracted. I'd bet a lot of people with ADD are in the military. The concrete time discipline is probably a good way to cope.

I did end up finishing college after returning...I found art to be one of those things that I could truly concentrate on fully.

And, for the record, I'm having one of those 'my brain won't shut off nights'...

__________________
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-David Byrne

Posted by LarryN on 06-20-2001 01:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson

Anything to make you happy. Can we keep my thread?

You are correct here, but you also mention that if somebody is offended, speak up... I spoke up. I don't think that starting another thread to quote something in this thread would be appropriate.

quote:
That's rather funny. My experience with Toby has been that he ignores most of the drivel in the forums. His posts are intelligent and thought-out.

"...Skull-f*ck*rs would refer to the more general class. " -very intelligent and thought out.

quote:
Of course you don't want to remove all the humor from VC, just the humor that you find offensive. I am of the opinion that if the humor isn't of your liking, you can ignore it - as opposed to advocating a restriction of the type of humor that's allowed here.

I didn't see any humor here.

quote:
If someone is offended, it's their responsibility to speak up.

And I am.

quote:
They don't need you to do it for them.

What if I'm the one offended?

quote:
You're right, the mods do a damn fine job. You aren't one of them. Let them work.

Make up your mind. Are you allowing me to speak or not? Gee, thanks if you are.

quote:
I often wonder if Ambrose Bierce or Oscar Wilde would get anything published were they alive, considering today's PC BS whiny society.

Totally out of context. I saw something that offended ME, and I spoke up, just as you would do if something offended you. Sorry to waste more of your thread space. I won't again.

Posted by Toby on 06-20-2001 02:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LarryN
"...Skull-f*ck*rs would refer to the more general class. " -very intelligent and thought out.

No less so than judging a person by a single tongue-in-cheek post.

quote:
I didn't see any humor here.

Therein lies the rub.

quote:
And I am.

No, you're sticking your head in the sand based upon a shaky premise.

quote:
What if I'm the one offended?

I'm honestly curious as to why this offends you so (although I suppose I'll never find out).

quote:
Totally out of context. I saw something that offended ME, and I spoke up, just as you would do if something offended you. Sorry to waste more of your thread space. I won't again.

Did you '<PLONK>' him too?

Posted by Toby on 06-20-2001 02:32 PM:

Oh, and as a final word on the topic, in case anyone still had any niggling* doubts about what I was saying in the original post that sparked this 'controversy'. I wasn't calling psychologists 'skull-f***ers'. I was simply being pedantic (in a tongue-in-cheek way) about proper pejorative usage (since 'shrink' is simply the reduction of the former pejorative of 'head-shrinker' which grouped psychiatrists into the same class as witch doctors). An example of this would be one time when someone called me a 'redneck' simply because I'm from the south. Since 'rednecks' are generally from a certain ethnic heritage to which I do not belong, I corrected them that the correct pejorative for my ethnic persuasion would be 'coon-a$$'.

*Now, before anyone gets up in arms about this word, look it up in a dictionary. It really disappoints me that I have to make that qualifier.

Josh, thanks for the defense, but you're probably wasting your breath. If someone is going to 'killfile' me without having ever interacted with me (that I recall anyway), I suspect that they probably have other bigger issues at play, and I'm just a convenient outlet, so if that helps them cope, no skin off my nose (well, it adds a little to my frequent disappointment in humans as a whole, but nothing that's going to interfere in my daily activities, anyway).

edit: added final paragraph

Posted by linguas on 06-20-2001 03:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
*Now, before anyone gets up in arms about this word, look it up in a dictionary. It really disappoints me that I have to make that qualifier.

What makes you think had to make the qualifier? No sense getting disappointed before the fact!

quote:
<snip>well, it adds a little to my frequent disappointment in humans as a whole<snip>

Maybe it would help avoid these "controversies" if you eased up a little on the condescension and made some effort to not come across so pompously to the mere mortals on the board.
(Not trying to pick a fight - just offering some observations.)

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Posted by dick-richardson on 06-20-2001 04:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
Finished two years of college with straight a's, but no direction. I had gone through 4 majors (including art) and finally decided I need to do something...anything.

I was on major #5 when I decided to finish the first one I started.

quote:
I'd bet a lot of people with ADD are in the military. The concrete time discipline is probably a good way to cope.

Which would explain why my father may have it w/o suffering too much.

Aside: I'll be seeing him for the first time in my life (in person - we've spoken on the phone for a year) in a couple of weeks. It's gonna be a good time.

quote:
And, for the record, I'm having one of those 'my brain won't shut off nights'...

The missus isn't pleased. I was up 'till 5am reading an eBook (Crown of Silence is quite good) and dinking around on the internet.

quote:
Originally posted by LarryN
"...Skull-f*ck*rs would refer to the more general class. " -very intelligent and thought out.

Turns out it was. If you wouldn't have gotten your panties in a bunch and asked for clarification, you might have saved yourself some irritation. It's your blood-pressure, do with it as you please.

quote:
I didn't see any humor here.

Exactly my point. I did.

quote:
Make up your mind. Are you allowing me to speak or not? Gee, thanks if you are.

I'm telling you that a poseur mods irritate me. You want to pretend to be one, that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to let it slide. You get offended rather easily. But hey, go to town on that ignore button.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Josh, thanks for the defense, but you're probably wasting your breath.

Don't worry. I have the breath to waste (ask my wife

). For the sake of my sensibilities let's say I'm not defending you; rather, I'm defending my own brand of humor from getting axed by those with thinner skins than I. You seem quite capable of defending yourself. I guess I'm still not one of the cool kids.

Is there anything that can kill the pain inside?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 06-20-2001 04:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by linguas
What makes you think had to make the qualifier? No sense getting disappointed before the fact!

Considering that similar words have caused controversies elsewhere (the example I'm thinking of is from Congress, IIRC), and a fairly innocuous comment caused this, I figured I'd head off the easily offended at the pass.

quote:
Maybe it would help avoid these "controversies" if you eased up a little on the condescension

There isn't any condescension in my posts. Any perception of such is solely on the part of the reader. If I consider myself above somebody, I'm not going to address them at all, and I really don't consider myself above anyone.

quote:
and made some effort to not come across so pompously to the mere mortals on the board.

Hmmm...I would have thought that the 'mere mortals on the board' would have the ability to differentiate between pomposity and feigned pomposity for the purpose of humorous effect.

FWIW, that comment was actually TIC as well. The previous INTP reference was fresh in my mind, and I was just amusing myself with a feigned stereotypical response for the type. My humor is really obscure sometimes. Sorry about that.

quote:
(Not trying to pick a fight - just offering some observations.)

Well, the observations are noted, but I dispute their accuracy.

edit: added Keirsey comment

Posted by septimus on 06-20-2001 04:26 PM:

...Nothing against multiple posts... Just found it funny that, in a forum aboud ADHD, we get 4 posts instead of one long one...

...so much to repond to... later...

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Posted by Toby on 06-20-2001 04:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
The missus isn't pleased. I was up 'till 5am reading an eBook (Crown of Silence is quite good) and dinking around on the internet.

Well, as long as you're not stripping the floor and rewaxing it at that hour, you've got a ways to go before reaching 'Jordan' level.

quote:
Don't worry. I have the breath to waste (ask my wife ). For the sake of my sensibilities let's say I'm not defending you; rather, I'm defending my own brand of humor from getting axed by those with thinner skins than I. You seem quite capable of defending yourself.

OK, cool. I just find it rather surreal to be discussed in the third person (which is why I try to avoid it with others as much as possible).

quote:
I guess I'm still not one of the cool kids. Is there anything that can kill the pain inside?

No, I'm afraid you'll just have to become a C&W songwriter to have an outlet for it.

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-20-2001 04:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn
...Nothing against multiple posts... Just found it funny that, in a forum aboud ADHD, we get 4 posts instead of one long one...

Oh.

quote:
...so much to repond to... later...

Take your time. I'll be around.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by K. Cannon on 06-20-2001 04:36 PM:

1. Josh, good luck with meeting your dad.
2. Does "PLONK" equal "Kill-thread"?
3. I think Toby called me a red-neck and I am going to take offense. (Just kidding, Toby. But I'm pretty sure you already knew that.)
4. I am going to purchase the book mentioned above b/c I think my husband may have a form of this. I have always jokingly (?) called him "ADD" but perhaps we should look at it a little more seriously. (He is trying out career number 7 currently.) Even if we don't go the testing/psych/drug route, surely there are some behavior modifications that will keep him from watching TV, playing solitaire, and listening to the game on the radio.

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-20-2001 04:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Well, as long as you're not stripping the floor and rewaxing it at that hour, you've got a ways to go before reaching 'Jordan' level.

Oddly enough...

quote:
OK, cool. I just find it rather surreal to be discussed in the third person (which is why I try to avoid it with others as much as possible).

Kind of like God?

quote:
No, I'm afraid you'll just have to become a C&W songwriter to have an outlet for it.

How is being irritating going to solve anything?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-20-2001 04:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
1. Josh, good luck with meeting your dad.

Thanks.

quote:
2. Does "PLONK" equal "Kill-thread"?

It's Usenet lingo for adding someone to a "kill file" - ignore list

quote:
4. I am going to purchase the book mentioned above b/c I think my husband may have a form of this. I have always jokingly (?) called him "ADD" but perhaps we should look at it a little more seriously. (He is trying out career number 7 currently.) Even if we don't go the testing/psych/drug route, surely there are some behavior modifications that will keep him from watching TV, playing solitaire, and listening to the game on the radio.

I'm reading both of them right now. Good stuff. (I'll admit that commenting on the books was my intention when I logged in this morning, but I got sidetracked...).

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 06-20-2001 04:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
2. Does "PLONK" equal "Kill-thread"?

PLONK is a Usenet 'saying'. It's the sound someone makes when they hit the bottom of your killfile. There is a contingent which claims that it stands for PLaced ON Killfile, but this seems to be a retronym to me.

quote:
3. I think Toby called me a red-neck and I am going to take offense.

Well, I guess that makes me D-FENS. Strangely ironic considering I did a voice-over for a friend's CD in that character (which wound up not being used due to copyright issues).

quote:
(Just kidding, Toby. But I'm pretty sure you already knew that.)

"I'm the bad guy here? How did that happen?"

quote:
4. I am going to purchase the book mentioned above b/c I think my husband may have a form of this. I have always jokingly (?) called him "ADD" but perhaps we should look at it a little more seriously. (He is trying out career number 7 currently.) Even if we don't go the testing/psych/drug route, surely there are some behavior modifications that will keep him from watching TV, playing solitaire, and listening to the game on the radio.

heh...if all husbands who tune out their wives occasionally would suddenly be diagnosed with ADD, I bet the Ritalin manufacturers are going to make a mint.

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