VisorCentral.com - The Terrorists win either way

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Posted by dick-richardson on 09-20-2001 05:55 PM:

Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
Well, either I am on everyone's Ignore list...

Good post. Damn nice. Cringely made some good comments, too. One of the things that struck me as ludicrous is the bans that will be imposed if Reagan Airport gets reopened. No planes will be allowed to fly toward the White House. Good idea. Terrorists hate breaking the law.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 09-20-2001 05:58 PM:

Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
5,000 plus and counting

What's the number count over in Israel? Africa? Russia? China? South America? How many people live in the U.S.? It was tragic and unquantifiable, but more lives have been - and are being - lost elsewhere. Let's not forget that.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by K. Cannon on 09-20-2001 06:08 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson

What's the number count over in Israel? Africa? Russia? China? South America? How many people live in the U.S.? It was tragic and unquantifiable, but more lives have been - and are being - lost elsewhere. Let's not forget that.

In a single act?

Posted by agraham999 on 09-20-2001 06:12 PM:

One thing that bothers me about the heightened security and interest in technology to prevent what happened last week...is that no matter how many civil liberties you strip, how many gadgets you employ, or how many people you bomb and kill...you will never stop the terrorism until you stop the cause of terrorism.

Osama isn't stupid...people like him are manipulating Muslims into believing America is anti-Islam...and let's face it...we've done a poor job of proving them otherwise.

This is a bad situation...because I feel they have manipulated us all this time...building up the anti-American sentiment to the point where any action we take will result in a jihad. I believe we are playing right into their hands.

Lastly, I am somewhat shocked by the title of this military action, Infinite Justice. How about Misdirected Righteousness? I am scared at the fact that people are rushing out to join the military...and others are full of the same blood lust that we deplore when we see the Islamic radicals burning our icons in effigy. Are we becoming like them? Will we attack out of anger or out of wisdom? When they look at our footage of people in the streets calling for Osama's head...are we showing them the Great Satan that they always talk about? And now Osama says he is willing to stand trial for this attack...and you know what...that is just what he wants...a global audience ready to hear his message...so he can call more people to his cause. I'd rather have him a dead martyr than put him on trial.

Believe me...I want justice...heck...right after the attack I was ready to have them roasted in the fire of a tactical nuke...but a week later after my anger has had time to mellow with thought...I can't help but think that it isn't the disruption of our society that Osama and the terrorists want...it is to instigate an all out war against Islam. Instead of all the Mulsim nations being divided...he can pull them together in a glorious army. Everyone on TV is saying go back to work...this is just what they wanted...but you're wrong...Infinite Justice is what they wanted. What Osama just did was polarize the world...for or against. Beware my friends...we are in for a bloodbath.

Posted by dick-richardson on 09-20-2001 06:19 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
In a single act?

Qualifications make it unique, not worse.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 09-20-2001 06:24 PM:

Alan,
I believe that this will not go as you expect. All muslims are not playing into your Grand Unification idea. We would win, and then spend billions upon billions of dollars to try and fix things to our liking.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by K. Cannon on 09-20-2001 06:28 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Qualifications make it unique, not worse.

I understand your point, but I disagree. In my opinion, I consider it worse to enact a plan that kills 5000 mostly-civilian people at one time.

Note: I am carefully wording this response to try to avoid a lengthy off-thread-topic argument.

I have heard a suggestion of a "Flyer's License" not unlike a Driver's License. This is not exactly an internal passport b/c the "vhere are you goink" aspect isn't there--either you have one or you don't and they would be issued after background checks...you know, is this person suspected in the 1983 car bombing of some place. And please don't react to that last statement with "what if someone turned you in..." Realistically, our intelligence sources should be involved in the issuance of these. Obviously, the question arises: "What about travelers from other countries?" Well, I don't know the answer to that yet but I think this is an idea that might merit some further consideration.

Posted by agraham999 on 09-20-2001 06:35 PM:

Well...I can't predict the future...and I know not all Muslims are on the side of terrorism...the idea is to turn them to his side by having the Great Satan respond just as he wants us to...for every innocent civilian that dies...how many will turn to the cause?

If you see the news...all of the radical Islamic groups and many people are saying "See...this is how the Americans react. A great aggressor" I watch a lot of foreign news...and I can tell you that our news does not really reflect the US spin on everything.

Believe me...I want justice...I'm just saying that we have played right into their hands. You know that bully on the playgroung that teases you until you finally have to react...because he wants a reaction.

You know not all Germans supported Hitler...but enough of them did to roll over Europe and leave 6 million Jews and millions of others dead in their path.

I think we need to begin listening to other cultures instead of always seeing them through our eyes. I'm a patriot...and I'm flying the flag on my house...but I just don't want to see this go the way I feel it is headed.

Posted by dick-richardson on 09-20-2001 06:37 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
In my opinion, I consider it worse to enact a plan that kills 5000 mostly-civilian people at one time.

We agree to disagree, then. I do not think less of the thousands of lives that have been lost in Israel simply because they didn't happen all at once. Rather, I believe that one act of terrorism is better for America than a drawn-out, bloody, guerrilla war with the blacks (chosen as my example because of the proportion in America) living in our own borders.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by K. Cannon on 09-20-2001 06:39 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Rather, I believe that one act of terrorism is better for America than a drawn-out, bloody, guerrilla war with the blacks (chosen as my example because of the proportion in America) living in our own borders.

Good point.

Posted by dick-richardson on 09-20-2001 06:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
You know not all Germans supported Hitler...but enough of them did to roll over Europe and leave 6 million Jews and millions of others dead in their path.

Well said.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by agraham999 on 09-20-2001 09:42 PM:

"The superpower of America can do nothing against Islam because the only true superpower is Islam," protester Jan Mohammed Habib declared moments before an effigy of the U.S. president -- wearing a coat with the words "Dog Bush" -- went up in flames.

The militants' ability to disrupt the country will be tested Friday, with religious leaders from several pro-Taliban organizations calling on all Pakistanis to close their businesses and take to the streets in protest....

Those bonds were evident Thursday in the shops of Peshawar, a Pakistani city not far from the Afghan border, where biographies and T-shirts of bin Laden were selling out.

"People are buying these shirts because they know that Osama is a true Muslim, a guerrilla, a soldier," said salesman Umar Zay. He said he's now selling 300 Osama T-shirts a day, compared to 25 before the terror attacks.

-------------

This is what I am talking about...if you don't change this mentality...military attacks will only bolster their cause.

Posted by Soul Raven on 09-20-2001 10:36 PM:

Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
5,000 plus and counting

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to trivialize what happened. The end of 5,000 lives is a terrible, ugly thing. The death of one person is one too many. My point is that I feel we are on the edge of compromising some of our freedom in our emotional response to what happened. How many died in World War I defending these freedoms? How many in World War II? How many policeman have died, killed by criminals who were protected by the same laws that protect my civil liberties? Should we now strip the meaning from their sacrifice?

Unfortunately, having freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, et. al. comes with certain risks. Trusting in human nature means sometimes you get walked on. How many of our nation's elderly have lost their life-savings to con artists? These attacks were obviously planned far in advance. If the press can be believed, the people behind this have been in the country for some time, living and working. I find it very unlikely that this situation could have been avoided without ignoring the laws we have in place. If they had done something wrong, if they were known terrorists, then we might have been able to get court-approved wiretaps or other survelliance equipment. In fact, if they were known terrorists, why weren't we doing that? If they were, then they really hadn't done anything wrong, and should have the same right as you and I. Heck, at that point, they were you and I. It's difficult to be pro-active towards this type of crime in a society with freedom of speech and individual rights. We have to be, unfortunately sometimes, re-active in nature. If I went out to Main Street, USA this afternoon, raised my fist in the air, and loudly yelled, "America sucks!" (which sometimes it does), am I now a terrorist? No, I am exercising my right of Free Speech as an American. After I was released from the hospital, would I now deserve to have the FBI tap my phone, film my activities, and run background checks on me and my family? Well, that's tricky. It is the FBI's job to insure domestic security, but I haven't done anything wrong. Did the Black Panthers deserve that kind of treatment in the 60's? Did Japanese-Americans deserve it the 40's? Do people of Arabic descent deserve it now?

We can probably pull together a society where no one would ever be subject to a terrorist attack, where you wouldn't have to lock your doors at night, and you can let your kids play at the park and not have to watch them every single second. We could:

A) have EVERYONE believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus/Allah/Buddah/Thor and realize that they are all just asking us to be nice and treat each other with respect.
B) put an armed guard outside of everyone's front door to shoot anyone who looks like that might hurt someone else.

I don't know. I certainly don't have the answer on how to stop terrorism. Luckily for the American people, I am not in a position to set policy. I can promise you this, though. If I am on a plane, and someone pulls a knife or gun, I will let them stab/shoot me as long as you promise to get behind them and hit them on the head. If I am at a baseball game and someone leaves a bomb under a seat, I'll stay behind and cut the red wire (or was it yellow?) if you tackle the bastard and sit on him until the police get there. I'll stop telling the funny one about the priest and the rabbi if you teach your kids not to hate and to not be violent. THAT'S the way to stop terrorism.

I just realized how right President Bush was when he said this was a new kind of war (although he may not realize it). This is not a war for real estate, money, or even religion. It's not even about freedom or American ideals. It is a war of the spirit. It is a war of hate. It is really irrelevant whether a person is a member of an extremist Islamic group, an extremist Christian group, or even an extremist Tupperware group. The fact is that there are people out there that hate other people, to the point that they feel they have to physically or otherwise hurt them. That is what we need to fight. That is our battlefield.

I know, I am an idealist. Take out the rose-colored contacts. I don't think for one moment that someone like Bin Laden (regardless of whether or not he was behind the attacks of Sep 11) is going to sit down with an anger-management counselor and work out all his aggression about how his mother never loved him and his dad was always pushing him to do better. I don't expect him to ever be invited to the White House for milk and cookies. But even if he becomes intimately familiar with the sound a cruise missle makes as it explodes, what then? What about people in Ireland that think Tony Blair would be better with a bomb in his car? What about someone who throws a Molotov cocktail through the window of a Southern Baptist church in Georgia? For those situations, yes, we need the police, we need the military to make sure that those people don't do things like that again, but it's not enough. It's going to take every one of us, working together, to win this war. It's going to take us in church, in schools, and at home to fight this enemy. I can't speak for the people in my town, my co-workers, even members of my own family, but I know for me, I will do what I can to stop violence around me, to stop hate.

Are you with me?

__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

Posted by agraham999 on 09-20-2001 10:41 PM:

BTW...I just heard the Mayor mention the death toll is now over 6,000.

Posted by Toby on 09-21-2001 12:17 AM:

Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
[...] Why did they ban knives on airplanes? [...]

I find that very annoying myself. I carry my Cybertool with me at nearly all times. Out of all of the tools on it, only two of them are knife blades. Personally, I'd bet that I could do just as much damage if I were so inclined with a good sturdy metal inkpen. I could do even worse with my falcon-flex stainless steel ruler. I've said multiple times over the past few days that the only way to prevent this stuff would be to straitjacket everyone naked into their seats before take-off. And even that wouldn't stop somebody willing to train themselves a la Houdini.

quote:
I am not sure I want to fly on a plane without my Leatherman. It has a knife blade on it. Two, in fact.

Damn, I hadn't looked at them in a while, but I was hoping to supplement my Cybertool with a Leatherman for travel, but I suppose that's not an option.

quote:
As it has been said before, anything can be a weapon. I can strangle someone with a shoelace. I have seen some women wield a dangerous high-heeled shoe. Do we now ban footwear? Ties? Belts?

See my proposal above.

Posted by homer on 09-21-2001 12:42 AM:

hmm..."fly the naked skies"...that could be fun...

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by dick-richardson on 09-21-2001 02:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
hmm..."fly the naked skies"...that could be fun...

I dunno, there's something about being strapped to an airline seat that would kill the excitement for me.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Soul Raven on 09-21-2001 03:12 PM:

Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Damn, I hadn't looked at them in a while, but I was hoping to supplement my Cybertool with a Leatherman for travel, but I suppose that's not an option.

Yeah, I looked at Leatherman's web page and all 10 models have at least one knife blade. I have the Super Tool, so it has two. I found the Tool Tales page interesting, how people used a Leatherman tool in an emergency situation, including one potential plane crash.

quote:
Originally posted by homer
hmm..."fly the naked skies"...that could be fun...

Sky the naked flies?

I know a lot of people have tossed around the idea of sealing the cockpit with it's own air supply and have a big red button on the dashboard that would flood the passenger compartment with sodium pentathol or some other "sleeping" gas and everyone takes a nap. Of course, I think that particular gas only keeps you asleep for about 5 minutes, and it's the stuff they give you through the IV that keeps you asleep in surgery, but they could think of something. We do run the risk of that 1.5% of the population having an adverse reaction to the gas, and now grandpa is dead from a heart attack. I don't know, are we ready to sacrifice grandpa for the good of the cause? You would have to make the airlines immune to lawsuits, and who wants that?

__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

Posted by K. Cannon on 09-21-2001 03:32 PM:

Can we outlaw hose, too, if we do away with high heels? Those things suck.

Posted by K. Cannon on 09-21-2001 03:38 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to trivialize what happened.
<SNIP>Are you with me?

Soul Raven:
Your points are well-made (very well-made...are you a writer?...) and I even agree with some of them.

I have said in another post, part of America's problem right now (or maybe just mine) is that we are such babies, so new, so inexperienced in anything like this happening that none of us exactly knows what we want to do about it....

like homer and yardie say, yes, we need to investigate the causation of why some other countries hate us, but as VTL says, even if we figure out why, is there any realistic way to change attitudes about the US? If we stop supporting Israel, won't fanatics find something else to get pissed off about? Can we reason with fanatics? Can this act ever be excused? Maybe a combo of the two: kill the people that did this (assuming we can do that) while trying to understand why they did it?

I hate to say this, but I am glad I don't have to make the decision.

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