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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
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Posted by John Nowak on 06-19-2002 02:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tantousha

That news company later admitted that that clip was shot before Sept. 11 took place and they only played because that was what they felt the "terrorists" would be doing back east. After the one channel broadcast it, the others followed not wanting to appear "slow" in the world of news. That's all.

I don't suppose you happen to have a link -- I work for the company that took the film, and I have never heard of an official retraction.

Posted by John Nowak on 06-19-2002 02:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi

It is a very brutal punishment, and it is unfortunately necessary.

That's kind of seriously evil, I think.

Posted by Toby on 06-19-2002 03:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tantousha
[...] Quick Question: What's the capitol of Canada? Alberta? and B.C.? Don't look it up on the net, that's cheating, answer honestly and truthfully. (oh well you will probably look it up anyhow)

Honestly and truthfully, I don't care. I might were it not for Le Grand Derangement.

Posted by terrysalmi on 06-19-2002 04:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

That's kind of seriously evil, I think.

Lets put this into context. These are people that blow themselves up and end their lifes, just so they can 'try' to take out any jew they can while they are at it, so their parents can recieve thousands of dollars from known terrorist leaders such as Saddam Hussein and they can be buried as a martyr for their cause, with a parade during their funeral that is broadcast on international television showing how great his action was.

And you are calling my viewpoint evil?

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Posted by Toby on 06-19-2002 04:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
Lets put this into context. These are people that blow themselves up and end their lifes, just so they can 'try' to take out any jew they can while they are at it, so their parents can recieve thousands of dollars from known terrorist leaders such as Saddam Hussein and they can be buried as a martyr for their cause, with a parade during their funeral that is broadcast on international television showing how great his action was.

And you are calling my viewpoint evil?

Yes, because it assumes that the family agrees with the whacko zealot. That may or may not be the case. For example, killing UBL's family would be counter-productive since they've all disowned him.

Posted by John Nowak on 06-19-2002 04:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi

And you are calling my viewpoint evil?

Yes, because it deliberately targets innocent people instead of regarding the deaths of innocents as something to be minimized as much as possible.

Posted by terrysalmi on 06-19-2002 04:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Yes, because it assumes that the family agrees with the whacko zealot. That may or may not be the case. For example, killing UBL's family would be counter-productive since they've all disowned him.

I am quoting from the Associated Press, and the story is available on a multitude of websites (Yahoo!, Washington Post, etc.):

Palestinian Bomber Left Suicide Note
By Mohammed Daraghmeh
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, June 18, 2002; 12:35 PM

quote:
His mother, Subhiya, sat sobbing with two of her daughters, holding pictures of her son and his diploma from An Najah. "My brother is a hero. I'm not sad," al-Ghoul's sister Samar said.

quote:
"He's a martyr," said his father, Haza. "We have only to ask our God to be merciful with him. ... Our sons want to die for our land, to get it back."

In his suicide note, he wrote this (same article):

quote:
In his note, which was found Tuesday, al-Ghoul didn't explain why he'd failed in his previous two attempts to stage attacks. "How beautiful it is to make my bomb shrapnel kill the enemy. How beautiful it is to kill and to be killed � not to love death, but to struggle for life, to kill and be killed for the lives of the coming generation," al-Ghoul said.

and this in itself is disturbing (same article):

quote:
Recent polls indicate that there is widespread support among Palestinians for attacks on Israelis. One poll cited an approval rating of 68 percent, and another of 54 percent

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

Yes, because it deliberately targets innocent people instead of regarding the deaths of innocents as something to be minimized as much as possible.

Unfortunately, sometimes death is required to make death stop. And these are not innocent people, these are people that train their children to die glorious deaths as suicide bombers. Notice it is always the children that blow themselves up, never the adult, the shop owner, etc... innocent people do not give their children this mindset.

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Posted by John Nowak on 06-19-2002 05:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi

Unfortunately, sometimes death is required to make death stop. And these are not innocent people, these are people that train their children to die glorious deaths as suicide bombers.

The bomber who exploded next to the bus was twenty-two. He was not a child. Very few suicide bombers are, and even Hamas has specifically denied using children.

Posted by terrysalmi on 06-19-2002 05:13 PM:

When I use 'children', I use it generally. Let me rephrase: Everyone who has blown themselves up has been well under 30, and is a teenager-young adult that has not yet had a life to live as an adult.

By my count, 70 suicide bombing attempts have resulted in over 240 truly innocent deaths since the 'uprising' has begun. (Source http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Jun19.html). Keep in mind that Israel is the size of New Jersey.

quote:
even Hamas has specifically denied using children.

How nice of them. Because they still allow their young children, 8-12 years old, to get close to Israeli tanks on the 'front lines' and allow them to throw rocks and shoot pistols at the tanks...knowing full well that when the child is killed as the soldier defends itself, they have a great television image that is shown on the International Media.

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Posted by John Nowak on 06-19-2002 05:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
When I use 'children', I use it generally. Let me rephrase: Everyone who has blown themselves up has been well under 30, and is a teenager-young adult that has not yet had a life to live as an adult.

If a parent strapped a bomb to their child of twelve then, yes, I would agree the parent had moral reponsibility for the child's action. However, almost every soldier who has died in service has been well under thirty. I do not in any way mean to imply that suicide bombers are legal combatants, but they are certainly old enough to take responsibility for their actions. Their families are not automatically to blame.

Posted by terrysalmi on 06-19-2002 05:24 PM:

There is breaking news that there has been yet another suicide bombing in Jerusalem, with no details as of yet. My numbers posted minutes ago are already out of date. The Israeli people are living in terror of these attacks, and they must stop...if this means killing the families, so be it. Israel is fighting the same enemy that America is currently fighting, and I urge President Bush to allow Israel to retaliate militarily against the Syrian and Lebanese Governments, as these governments are the active funders and organizers of Hamas and other terrorist agencies.

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Posted by Toby on 06-19-2002 05:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
I am quoting from the Associated Press, and the story is available on a multitude of websites (Yahoo!, Washington Post, etc.): [... article snipped...]

So, I should slap your parents due to your poor statistical understanding?

quote:
Unfortunately, sometimes death is required to make death stop.

That's not necessarily evil.

quote:
And these are not innocent people, these are people that train their children to die glorious deaths as suicide bombers.

That viewpoint _is_ evil. I doubt that they _all_ train their children for such things. To make such a patently ludicrous statement is prejudice and bigotry at its finest.

quote:
Notice it is always the children that blow themselves up, never the adult, the shop owner, etc... innocent people do not give their children this mindset.

Actually, the people that are usually blowing themselves up are rarely children. They're usually young adults...much like yourself. Think about that. If _they_ have no control over their actions, and are just engaged in brainwashed zealotry because they were programmed to do so, why should we take you seriously either?

Posted by Toby on 06-19-2002 05:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
There is breaking news that there has been yet another suicide bombing in Jerusalem, with no details as of yet.

Don't let that stop you from making definitive statements about it, though.

quote:
My numbers posted minutes ago are already out of date. The Israeli people are living in terror of these attacks, and they must stop...if this means killing the families, so be it.

You do realize that such statements hurt the cause more than any suicide bomber could, right?

quote:
Israel is fighting the same enemy that America is currently fighting, [...]

Ignorance? Stupidity?

Posted by ToolkiT on 06-20-2002 01:02 AM:

Thanx toby, I'm trying real hard not to post in this topic anymore but some of the postings realy deserve a reply... You saved from a lot of work...

ok, while I'm braking my own rule of not posting here I might as well use the opportunity:
-above 18 is adult, while many 16 yearold feel they are not a kid anymore. Saying that all the suicide bombers were kids below 30 is offensive to any adult under the age of 30.. I am 29 and defenately not a kid, I've seen more of the world than many others and experienced enough to make very adult decisions. Terry, you are 15 or 16 right? what would you call youself if you call 30yr olds 'kids'? The suicide bombers are all brainwashed, what makes you think you are not? what you call brainwashing is what they call education and vice versa... your upbringing gives you a certain perspective of the world and based on your posting a very narrow minded one...
-saying they put kids with rocks infront of tanks who only kill them to defend themselfs...mmm where are those tanks? Tanks against rock, need I say more, I would hardly call that defending yourself...
-how innocent is a civilian when he supports an oppressing governement? You are pro nukes and approve on the nukes on Japan in WWII, those people were just as innocent as the jews that got blown up, it is all about politics... since we trew the nukes on japan, bombed germany, afganistan to rumvble is ok, since we do it, the fact we kill milions of innocent people in the process does not matter. but when somebody from the other side does the same thing he is murdering innocent people.. kind of strange isn't it? mind you I don not aprove suicide bombing, or any kind of bombing for that matter, but sometimes (like in Japan) it is an neccesary evil. lets just me honest about it and not use false sentiments. the jews use tanks and guns to kill both innocent and guilty palisinians, the palestinians use suicide bombs to kill what they see as their oppresor... on WWII that happened in europe by the resistance too... nowadays they are heroes.. the winning party apperently decides who is good and who is wrong... that's why none of the parties is backing down and thats why there probably will never be a sollution in Israel untill people smart up...
-the suicide bombers don't do it for the money...the money may be the thing that tips the scale, but the bomb the israeli because they feel they are oppressed by them... money is not as important in their culture as in yours..

ok, that is enough for today, hopefully this will not turn into a flame war, my posting was not intended as flamebait, but I felt the recent statement needed some more perspective since they were seen from 1 viewpoint only...

Let's face it the world is a mess, but if we try to see all the conflicts and put them in our own cultural perspective we will get nowhere... only if we try to see the other side too we can understand what is really happening...
Ever wondered why the muslim extremists hate the US so much they did 9-11? because they are jealous of hollywood? I doubt it...
With Bush's current intenational politics I'm afraid things will only get worse and 9-11 was only the begining.. I sincerely hope not but I am very afraid...

p.s. funny how a discussion on Bush suddenly became a discusion on the israel situation...

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Posted by Yorick on 06-20-2002 01:54 AM:

Originally posted by ToolkiT
-above 18 is adult, while many 16 yearold feel they are not a kid anymore. <snip> Terry, you are 15 or 16 right?
According to his profile, Terry is 18 and therefore this Nov. will be the first election he can vote in. (Terry, I assume you will register?)

Let's face it the world is a mess, but if we try to see all the conflicts and put them in our own cultural perspective we will get nowhere... only if we try to see the other side too we can understand what is really happening...
aye.

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Posted by terrysalmi on 06-20-2002 02:16 AM:

I am actually 17, turn 18 this September 18, and this November will be the Second election I will vote in. Nebraska allows you to vote in the Primary election if you are not yet 18, but will be by the November election date. I am registered as a Republican in Nebraska (very uncommon... (every county in Nebraska voted for Bush)) but will be changing my registration to Kansas in August as I will be going to college in Topeka, and I will attempt to establish residency in order to save many thousands of dollars.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 06-20-2002 03:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
I am actually 17, turn 18 this September 18.

My appologies...

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Posted by terrysalmi on 06-20-2002 04:12 AM:

This is amazing! We have gone two or three posts without saying anything bad, and actually being nice!

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Posted by John Nowak on 06-20-2002 04:13 AM:

Posted by terrysalmi on 06-20-2002 04:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

That's probably the most intellegent thing said so far...

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