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Posted by clulup on 07-21-2003 03:52 PM:

Re: Re: Re: One would think time in the mountains would reduce passive-aggressivity

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
When such an experience leaves one believing that a world leader is simultaneously an idiotic, incompetent buffoon, and yet a diabolical mastermind capable of fooling and manipulating hundreds of millions of people, I'd say I'm glad I'm not sharing that particular experience. Perhaps you went too high and you weren't getting enough oxygen.

Now wait a second. I never said anything close to Bush being a mastermind (diabolical or not). And I also never said he can manipulate hundreds of millions. However, that does not rule out that the Bush administration has been trying to fool and manipulate people, successfully or not and to what extent remains to be seen.

I also did not say he is an idiotic, incompetent buffoon. But now that you mention it, he certainly looks and talks like one at times

I guess we have to distinguish between Bush and the people around and behind him. Some of them certainly are clever. Did you know that the majority of the US population thinks Saddam is the guy behind September 11? While the question whether there have been any significant contacts between Saddam's regime and Al Qaida at all is somewhat open and questioned even within the various US sectet services, it is clearly wrong that Saddam played a major role in September 11 (in contrast to some of the Saudi "friends" of the US, but that's another story). So why does the majority of the US citizens believe otherwise? Is it manipulation or just ignorance about the complicated world we live in?

Posted by Toby on 07-21-2003 04:14 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: One would think time in the mountains would reduce passive-aggressivi

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
Now wait a second. I never said anything close to Bush being a mastermind (diabolical or not).

And I never said anything which should lead one to believe I can't distinguish fact from fiction.

quote:
And I also never said he can manipulate hundreds of millions.

Your and ToolkiT's arguments mesh so closely sometimes, it's hard to remember who said what.

quote:
However, that does not rule out that the Bush administration has been trying to fool and manipulate people, successfully or not and to what extent remains to be seen.

Nope, and it also doesn't rule out that they may have actually believed the Brits' intelligence (and the recently released precedent-setting CIA IE), or at least considered it a safe enough risk. Granted, I may be following Ockham's and Hanlon's Razors to a fault, but I can live with that.

quote:
I also did not say he is an idiotic, incompetent buffoon. But now that you mention it, he certainly looks and talks like one at times

So do we all. So do we all. Luckily most of us don't have the press picking and choosing to show us at those moments.

quote:
I guess we have to distinguish between Bush and the people around and behind him. Some of them certainly are clever. Did you know that the majority of the US population think Saddam is the guy behind September 11?

Did you know that 97.34% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

quote:
While the question whether there have been any significant contacts between Saddam's regime and Al Qaida at all is somewhat open and questioned even within the various US sectet services, it is clearly wrong that Saddam played a major role in September 11 (in contrast to some of the Saudi "friends" of the US, but that's another story). So why does the majority of the US citizens believe otherwise? Is it manipulation or just ignorance about the complicated world we live in?

Or is it even the manipulation which you think it is? Wheels within wheels. Wheels within wheels.

Posted by clulup on 07-22-2003 08:54 AM:

The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
And I never said anything which should lead one to believe I can't distinguish fact from fiction.[B]Your and ToolkiT's arguments mesh so closely sometimes, it's hard to remember who said what. [B]Nope, and it also doesn't rule out that they may have actually believed the Brits' intelligence (and the recently released precedent-setting CIA IE), or at least considered it a safe enough risk. Granted, I may be following Ockham's and Hanlon's Razors to a fault, but I can live with that.[B]So do we all. So do we all. Luckily most of us don't have the press picking and choosing to show us at those moments. [B]Did you know that 97.34% of all statistics are made up on the spot?[B]Or is it even the manipulation which you think it is? Wheels within wheels. Wheels within wheels.

Dear Toby,

since you know pretty much everything, maybe you can explain me this (of course also others are invited):

Jessica Lynch got the Purple Heart for being wounded in action. Fair enough, I can understand that. But she also got the Bronze Star for meritorious service in combat. What I don't understand is, what exactly do her special merits consist of? After all, Lynch was sitting in her Humvee after taking a wrong turn, then the Humvee got blown up by a RPG, then the Iraqi brought her to a hospital, took care of her, and then the US carried her out of the hospital and back to the US. Is that meritorious? Or do all members of the US forces in Iraq get the Bronze Star?

As CNN notes, "Staff members at the Iraqi hospital said later that no Iraqi troops were in the facility by the time U.S. forces arrived.
They also said they had earlier tried to turn Lynch over to American forces but turned back when their ambulance was fired upon" What do you think, are they lying?

Sometimes I have to fight really hard not to think the Lynch story is attempt in creating a certain effect in the public. I have to admit that at times I lose this fight. What do you think about the Lynch story? Thank you very much for your answers to my questions.

Posted by KRamsauer on 07-22-2003 02:14 PM:

Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by clulup

Jessica Lynch got the Purple Heart for being wounded in action. Fair enough, I can understand that. But she also got the Bronze Star for meritorious service in combat. What I don't understand is, what exactly do her special merits consist of?

If there was a time when military medals reflected 100% the service on the battlefield it has long since passed. She is getting it because of the story and collective will of America to reward her. Those are not bogus reasons and may not diminish the meaning behind the Bronze Star. A kind of "strict constructionist" will probably disagree with that (I kind of do), but that's why.

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Posted by clulup on 07-22-2003 03:13 PM:

Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
She is getting it because of the story and collective will of America to reward her. Those are not bogus reasons and may not diminish the meaning behind the Bronze Star.

A rather dubious story that made the collective will act as you describe, but I see what you mean.

Since I still cannot see her special merit, I think it does diminish the meaning behind the Bronze Star. I think giving her a bogus PR show Bronze Star is unfair to those who got one for real reasons.

Did the guys who carried her out of the Iraqi hospital also get an award? Not that there were any enemies in the hospital, but what they did was still more meritorious than sitting in a car that is hit by a RPG (she got the Purple Heart for that). Giving the rescue team also a medal in public would probably raise too many questions about the background of the rescue.

Posted by KRamsauer on 07-22-2003 03:47 PM:

I guess it should be noted the cynic in me wants to say we give special treatment to young white women caught by the enemy while males or black women (Shoshana Johnson--is that the name? My lack of recollection enforces my point) hardly recieve such treatment.

Of course this is just the cynic in me, and I really don't want to believe it. I'm hardly a new-age touchy-feely liberal professor of Mallard Fillmore fame, but still....

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Posted by MarkEagle on 07-22-2003 04:24 PM:

Re: Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
Since I still cannot see her special merit, I think it does diminish the meaning behind the Bronze Star. I think giving her a bogus PR show Bronze Star is unfair to those who got one for real reasons.

I'm no military expert, but I think the Bronze Star is due to the fact she was a POW, and I think ALL the POW's will receive one.

Since the media is really playing up the whole Jessica Lynch story, I think it's been a bit sensationalized (which is not fair to the others, especially those that didn't make it home).

__________________

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Posted by clulup on 07-22-2003 05:53 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
I'm no military expert, but I think the Bronze Star is due to the fact she was a POW, and I think ALL the POW's will receive one.

Since the media is really playing up the whole Jessica Lynch story, I think it's been a bit sensationalized (which is not fair to the others, especially those that didn't make it home).

"The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party." http://www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm#BronzeStar

The more I think and know about it, the more obvious is the sillyness of giving Jessica Lynch a Bronze Star. Her convoy got lost, a rocket-propelled grenade hit her Humvee, she was wounded, that was it. No heroism, no meritorious achievement, just the desperate need for a nice and touching story. Who gives a damn about facts, heroism, merits anyway? Some people sure love being manipulated, it will certainly create some votes for Bush.

Posted by MarkEagle on 07-22-2003 10:21 PM:

WMD

It appears that at least 2 of Iraq's WMD have been found:

quote:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's sons, Qusay and Uday, were killed Tuesday in a gunbattle with U.S. troops in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, the commander of U.S. ground forces in Iraq said.

__________________

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Posted by ToolkiT on 07-23-2003 01:20 AM:

Re: WMD

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
It appears that at least 2 of Iraq's WMD have been found:

hehehe, I dont think they mean that with WMD mark

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Posted by BobbyMike on 07-23-2003 02:36 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by clulup

"The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party." http://www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm#BronzeStar

The more I think and know about it, the more obvious is the sillyness of giving Jessica Lynch a Bronze Star. Her convoy got lost, a rocket-propelled grenade hit her Humvee, she was wounded, that was it. No heroism, no meritorious achievement, just the desperate need for a nice and touching story. Who gives a damn about facts, heroism, merits anyway? Some people sure love being manipulated, it will certainly create some votes for Bush.

I believe everbody in her unit received the same medals, example
"Slain soldier's mother will get his Purple Heart, Bronze Star .

Your need to be right about Bush is leading you to beat some strange drums. It's very hard to be a soldier in the US Army and get wounded or killed in action without receiving at least the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart.

As to the inserted rescue team, I would be surprised if their unit hadn't received at least a Presidential Unit Citation for their participation.

The US Army is notorious for not giving any thought whatsoever to whether or not foreigners believe it's soldiers deserve certain medals.

__________________
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Posted by MarkEagle on 07-23-2003 02:11 PM:

Re: Re: WMD

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
I dont think they mean that with WMD

True, but with their history, you can't deny that they were WMD.

__________________

God bless America, my home sweet home...

Posted by clulup on 07-23-2003 05:13 PM:

Re: Re: Re: WMD

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
True, but with their history, you can't deny that they were WMD.

A biological WMD variety, undoubtedly...

Posted by Toby on 07-26-2003 04:29 PM:

Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
Dear Toby,

Aww...I feel so special.

quote:
since you know pretty much everything,

You haven't been paying attention. There isn't much that I claim to _know_. That's also why I'm skeptical of what others claim to _know_.

quote:
maybe you can explain me this (of course also others are invited): [...] What do you think about the Lynch story? Thank you very much for your answers to my questions.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about Jessica Lynch. She's like Baby Jessica AFAIC. She's a feel-good story for the evening news, and ultimately unimportant to the big picture. I think that Odai and Qusay supposedly being killed is a much more important story. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if you think the whole story is made up and that Bushie really just staged their deaths so that they could escape the country because they're really old friends.

Posted by clulup on 07-28-2003 06:10 AM:

Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
There isn't much that I claim to _know_. That's also why I'm skeptical of what others claim to _know_.

Funny, I feel the same. I am also skeptical of what others claim to know, e.g. what the Bush administration claims/claimed to know about the Iraqi WMD, or Saddam's link to Al Qaida, or what they claim/claimed to know about post war Iraq... Talking about skepticism: www.csicop.org - join the club!

quote:
Originally posted by Toby Bushie really just staged their deaths so that they could escape the country because they're really old friends.

You really think that's what Bush did - I didn't think of that yet, but if you say so... Or did I get you wrong there?

Posted by Toby on 07-28-2003 06:57 AM:

Re: Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
[...] Talking about skepticism: www.csicop.org - join the club!

No thanks. It doesn't surprise me though.

quote:
You really think that's what Bush did - I didn't think of that yet, but if you say so... Or did I get you wrong there?

Yes, you totally missed it.

Posted by clulup on 07-28-2003 08:48 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Yes, you totally missed it.

You know, Toby, I didn't REALLY think you thought Bush is a friend of Uday and Qusay (hence the smiley). Thank you for explaining anyway.

Posted by clulup on 07-28-2003 08:51 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Lynch Story

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
It doesn't surprise me though

Why doesn't it surprise you?

Posted by yardie on 02-18-2004 01:44 PM:

The American people and the world were lied to. There was never really any WMD in Iraq and Bush's Necon government knew it. Why didn't wait until the UN team finished its job? Because they knew nothing would be found. Folks a bigger agenda is at play. It would be delusional to think otherwise. Its crock to say that The US is doing it for the Iraqi people. If Iraq was in Africa and didnt sit one of the largest oil reserves in the world, the U.S wouldnt give a damn -- WMD or no WMD.

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Posted by clulup on 02-18-2004 11:01 PM:

It is a bit surprising that a country like Pakistan, where major parts of the regime strongly supported the Taliban, was allowed to develop and build nuclear bombs and even pass on nuclear secrets to rogue states like Iran or Libya, while Iraq was attacked because of inexistent WMD.

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