VisorCentral.com - Fish or Cut Springboard

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-- Fish or Cut Springboard (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=23748)

Posted by Toby on 06-07-2002 03:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Madkins007
[...] Ah well. Springboards were, I believe, an important part of the evolution of the PDA. I think they helped force other companies to rethink THEIR expansion abilities.

Do you really think so? Which companies borrowed from Handspring's model? Wince PDAs have had CF expansion for a long time. Sony rolled their own expansion idea which was more borrowed from their memory stick strategy than anything else. Handera/TRG brought CF to the Palm world and supports CF peripherals which are more owed to the PPC world. The original TRG was also released practically at the same time as the Visor, so Handspring would have a hard time laying claim to influencing them. Palm uses their slot primarily for memory or software (with Sony and Handera influenced VFS). Expansion is almost exclusively still sled or UC based.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Plug-and-Play aspect of the springboard was a great idea, but I don't see how it really influenced any other companies.

Posted by dkessler on 06-07-2002 04:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Don't get me wrong. I think the Plug-and-Play aspect of the springboard was a great idea, but I don't see how it really influenced any other companies.

Plug-and-play was an "interesting" idea but the way Handspring did it doomed the Springboard's long term viability. Having driver software on the module the way Handspring designed things means that Springboard could only work on a device with a hardware architecture and operating system very similar to the Visor. Yes, emulation on other devices is possible, but the R&D required just can't be justified when there are other perfectly good expansion standards.

The only other really "unique" aspect of the Springboard was the "open" form factor. That too was an "interesting" idea but the problem is that as soon as Springboard developers started taking advantage of it, they seriously compromised the form factor of the device. Look back through the VC archives and count the complaints from users who were unhappy because module X wouldn't fit in such-and-such carrying case

If Springboard has influenced other manufacturers it's been to show them how not to do PDA expansion.

__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Posted by argent on 06-09-2002 06:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RedSoxPDAer
It really amazes me how some people want the best of both worlds. You want Handspring to release new devices with the Springboard expansion slot, but you'll be the first to complain when the device is so large and you have to lug this thing around on a daily basis while your coworker carries around a slim Sony Clie T650 or Palm M505.

That is a total straw man. A completely made up argument. Who exactly is it who's saying "we want the Springboard slot" and "we want thinner devices". The sales (or lack thereof) of the Visor Edge should be more than enough evidence that there's basically nobody who wants both, so why do you weven bring this up? Because it makes you feel good?

There is an alternative to the Springboard, it's called the Compact Flash 1e. Like the Springboard, it's relatively high speed (though not as high performance as the Springboard, it's faster than any other expansion slot) and it also has a way to mount bulky devices in the handheld without risk of a fragile "neck" in the middle being broken.

Unfortunately, the only handheld to use this slot was the HP Jornada 568, which has been discontinued as well.

This leaves those of us who want a USABLE exapansion slot (and, no, Memory Stick and SDIO don't count, unless you like having your expansion devices poking out at weird angles, breaking off at the neck, and falling out when the relatively weak ratchet holding them in breaks) in the lurch. You either need a device bulky enough for Compact Flash (which is still subject to the "neck" problem, but it's at least reasonably capable) or do without.

quote:
Why would Handspring seek to continue incorporating the dated and way-too-big Springboards slot when its competitors are starting to develop technology that takes up a fraction of the real estate.

How about "Handspring had 10% of the handheld market, more than any single Pocket PC manufacturer and most of the time more than all Pocket PCs put together, because of the Springboard slot. Since they announced the Visor's days were numbered, their market share has tumbled."

Is that a good enough reason?

quote:
Well I'm here to tell you that you are in the minority.

Yep, we're only 10% of the market. But we're a 10% that Handspring had to themselves, and it doesn't seem handspring has anything compelling enough to pick up enough sales in the other 90% to make up the difference.

quote:
HS will not stay afloat by continuing to produce bulky devices for the small number or salespeople and other professionals who use the Springboard on a daily basis and don't mid carrying around a brick-sized device.

Then, I guess, Handspring hasn't got a hope in hell of staying afloat. And the sales figures are already starting to reflect that.

quote:
Handspring recognizes that the general consumer wants a device that can do alot and fit smoothly in a shirt ot pants pocket.

You are significantly exxagerating the bulk of the Visor line here. Even the bulky Prism fits easily into a trouser pocket, and they're no more a burden on a shirt pocket than a Clie in its protective case.

quote:
So give up on the Springboard and support HS as it moves towards SD expansion technology.

Why? Is there any particular reason why we should have any particular loyalty to handspring? If I'm going to switch from my Visor to a different product line, it will probably be the new color Handera when it comes out. I don't buy anything according to its "brand label", I buy it based on what it'll do for me. I don't expect companies to feel any loyalty to their customers, and it's pretty obvious that handspring is no exception here... why do you imagine a visor user has any reciprocal responsibilities?

quote:
Soon, you will see SD GPS and other devices, in smaller packages for the Treo 90 and future Treo devices with the SD slot, after HS releases that patch, of course.

What, the patch that Handspring hasn't indicated any interest in producing? Remember when Handspring stated they would provide patches for the Visor Deluxe so they would remain compatible with new hardware and software, and then didn't even bother making sure they remained compatible with their own products? You can't depend on them to carry things through: the whole Springboard debacle is proof of that.

quote:
I know that the Treo 90 has made HS catch my attention again.

Really? Why? What's so exciting about a stripped down crippled Treo that doesn't even have a Graffiti option?

quote:
The point is that they have caught my attention again, and probably the attention of many other HS defectors.

Why do you think of yourself as a "defector"? You bought a visor, not a citizenship. To quote Dave haynie of Commodore/Amiga: "I am here to bring you a computer, not a religion".

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by argent on 06-09-2002 06:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Madkins007
Getting back on topic, I bought my first VDX because of the expansion ability, price, looks, and a few software features. I LOVED the Springboard, and invested heavily in modules.

I use all the modules I bought regularly. The serial port and modem modules are particularly critical, because they let me use the device as a terminal, with the keyboard in place, while online (either using the Thinmodem or the serial cable to a cellphone). This was critical enough that I got a serial CF card for my Jornada, again so I could use the keyboard while online.

The CDPD module work bought me hasn't been that useful, because I'm not in range of the CDPD data network unless I travel 15 or so miles downtown. That's not enough to justify it. I had them discontinue service even before Omnisky went under. But that's hardly a problem with the module... I'd be in the same position with the CDPD sleds and CF modules.

I got the Eyemodule by accident. My boss wanted one and when I ordered it he upped the quantity so the CFO and myself were included. I don't use it, but he apparently uses it regularly... mostly to document work that needs to be done, something he doesn't need exceptionally good resolution for, and the "stealth" nature of the Eyemodule lets him get shots he wouldn't manage with a more obvious device.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-09-2002 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by argent
...If I'm going to switch from my Visor to a different product line, it will probably be the new color Handera when it comes out. ...

The statement should be "...if it comes out."

There [apparently] has to be a total pre-order of 50,000 units before they're interested.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 06-10-2002 02:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
The statement should be "...if it comes out."

There [apparently] has to be a total pre-order of 50,000 units before they're interested.

Ever consider that this leak was orchestrated to see what sort of reception it might get? You think Handera isn't going to have NDAs with their partners for new products? As historically tight-lipped as they've been, I would be astounded if they didn't approve of this (if it's real). PCExpo is only a couple weeks away as well.

Posted by argent on 06-10-2002 04:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dkessler
Having driver software on the module the way Handspring designed things means that Springboard could only work on a device with a hardware architecture and operating system very similar to the Visor.

It wouldn't take much modification to change that, if Handspring had really decided they were in it for the long haul: you would only need to be able to read Palm databases off the module, and select the appropriate driver for your device. It's no different than the way Compact Flash works, with everyone providing an MS-DOS file system emulation.

You would probably need a 68000 emulator to start with, but it's not hard to update the drivers if the module has writable flash.

Like the Visor itself, there's nothing in the Springboard design that couldn't have been extended if Handspring had chosen to do so. Handspring didn't, and so that's that.

quote:
The only other really "unique" aspect of the Springboard was the "open" form factor. That too was an "interesting" idea but the problem is that as soon as Springboard developers started taking advantage of it, they seriously compromised the form factor of the device.

No more than any other expansion module that requires dongles or protusions. The only reason you don't see the same "complaints" about CF is that the CF module design isn't sufficiently rugged to leave a CF IO module in the device full time. CF Ie was an attempt to change that, but with the termination of the jornada 568 it's dead.

You *do* see such complaints about PCMCIA modules, which is why the dongle-less and extension-less "X-Jack" and "RealPort" modules have proven so popular. Springboard is even better suited to such designs.

quote:
If Springboard has influenced other manufacturers it's been to show them how not to do PDA expansion.

Unfortunately, abandoning viable products and designs is something most manufacturers need no training in.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by argent on 06-10-2002 04:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson

The statement should be "...if [the color Handera] comes out."

There [apparently] has to be a total pre-order of 50,000 units before they're interested.

This shows that, unlike some companies, Handera is reasonably cautious about spending large amounts of money before they have a market. Also, that they're unwilling to pull an Osborne and trash a viable product line before the new one's proven itself (or should we call that 'pulling a Compaq' these days?). It also means that 50,000 units is enough to make a new handheld design worthwhile... which means that companies that can't manage to make a living on much larger production runs have a lesson to learn from TRG/Handera.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by yardie on 06-10-2002 04:52 PM:

Hmmm

But aren't all the expansion solutions available for PDAs (with the exception of memory) like this? Is there any really useful expansion options available that fits flush with the PDA they are designed for?

quote:
Originally posted by dkessler

The only other really "unique" aspect of the Springboard was the "open" form factor. That too was an "interesting" idea but the problem is that as soon as Springboard developers started taking advantage of it, they seriously compromised the form factor of the device. Look back through the VC archives and count the complaints from users who were unhappy because module X wouldn't fit in such-and-such carrying case

If Springboard has influenced other manufacturers it's been to show them how not to do PDA expansion.

Posted by yardie on 06-10-2002 05:00 PM:

Sony ran Handspring through the door

Handspring decided to get out of the PDA space and fast because of Sony. While Palm can survive for now based on their very strong brand name, Handspring has to make new and exciting products in order to gain marketshare. There is no way that Handspring could have competed with Sony.

As for the artilcle, I think its irrelevant. I think it is very obvious where Handspring is heading. They are no longer interested in expansion. Their objective is to build smartphones. The Treo 90 is released as a stop gap measure so that they can bring in some needed cash.

Posted by argent on 06-10-2002 05:13 PM:

Re: Hmmm

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
But aren't all the expansion solutions available for PDAs (with the exception of memory) like this? Is there any really useful expansion options available that fits flush with the PDA they are designed for?

Several Springboard modules: SoundsGood, Thinmodem, Red-M, Springport Cellular/Modem, most of the audio modules, OmniRemote, lots of the sensor and reader modules...

Whether they're "really useful" is a question I'll leave up to you, I'll just note that almost all of the modules that aren't flush are the ones that require an antenna. If your definition of "really useful" means "wireless" then I guess you're right...

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by argent on 06-10-2002 05:15 PM:

Re: Sony ran Handspring through the door

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Handspring decided to get out of the PDA space and fast because of Sony.

Maybe. So far I don't see Sony as even targeting the same market as Handspring. If they were, they would have a real expansion strategy... or at least the same hotsync connector on every device!

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-10-2002 07:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Ever consider that this leak was orchestrated to see what sort of reception it might get?

Entirely, though the effective difference between the 'leak' and truth would be negligable (IOW, handera would have to have a commitment of 50k).

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-10-2002 07:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by argent
...It also means that 50,000 units is enough to make a new handheld design worthwhile...

I agree with everything you mentioned excepting this. It means that 50k units is enought to make a new handheld design worthwhile for a company with 47(?) employees and a small advertising budget.

It is still an intelligent move, regardless of the number of pre-orders needed to make it profitable.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by argent on 06-10-2002 08:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I agree with everything you mentioned excepting this. It means that 50k units is enought to make a new handheld design worthwhile for a company with 47(?) employees and a small advertising budget.

It would never do to suggest, of course, that a company like Handspring may have a bit more overhead than they really need.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by HindeR on 06-10-2002 08:36 PM:

Re: Dead as a doornail

quote:
Originally posted by alanf
Dead as a doornail (Whatever that actually means )

Nails used to be very hard to come by and very expensive. If you had them, you were rich. Pounding nails through your door was a way to display your wealth (you had money to burn). Bending the nail downward on the back side made it useless and therefore, the doornail was dead.

So should I nail my SB modules to my office door?

Posted by argent on 06-10-2002 08:42 PM:

Re: Re: Dead as a doornail

quote:
Originally posted by HindeR

So should I nail my SB modules to my office door?

Anyone who wants to mail their "useless" SB modules to me is welcome to email me, I'll be mor e than happy to donate reasonable postage to save you from cluttering up your wastebasket or office door with them.

__________________
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC 
<a href=http://www.taronga.com/~peter/>Ar rug t� barr�g ar do mhact�re inniu?</a>

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-10-2002 08:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by argent
It would never do to suggest, of course, that a company like Handspring may have a bit more overhead than they really need.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by HindeR on 06-10-2002 09:19 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Dead as a doornail

quote:
Originally posted by argent
Anyone who wants to mail their "useless" SB modules to me is welcome to email me, I'll be mor e than happy to donate reasonable postage to save you from cluttering up your wastebasket or office door with them.

On the contrary, I still use most of my SB modules all of the time. Despite how much I have whined about the lack of a Prism upgrade in the past, I actually bought another Prism when the digitizer on the old one broke down. I looked around for another PDA that could replace my Prism and the functionality of my SB modules and found NOTHING. OK, maybe some of you PDA guru's could have found something, but the combination of color (16bit), modem, presenter-to-go, camera, GPS (not often used , but enjoyed), and full-sized keyboard was hard to find. Also, the cost of replacing the functionality of my SB's started to look too stagering. As I said in another thread, I hope my Prism lasts and lasts and lasts.

With respect to the "personal attacks":
Not everyone is as good at debating a point as some of the regular members of this community. In fact, some folks rattle of seemingly senseless statements sometimes just to have said something. Regardless of which set of folks you may be in, folks is folks, and folks have feelings.
Also, not even these cute little smilies can fully relate your intent. Some posts intended to point out the folly of someone's logic can come across as just plain mean. So please take the time to calm down and re-read the post before you fire off a counter-attack.

So I hope no one feels hurt or insulted by this, and I hope no one dissects my post to strip me down to my naked ignorance.

Posted by dick-richardson on 06-10-2002 09:44 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dead as a doornail

quote:
Originally posted by HindeR
So I hope no one feels hurt or insulted by this, and I hope no one dissects my post to strip me down to my naked ignorance.

I sincerely wish it wasn't looked upon as a dissection.

The admonishment is nicely put, but, as is the nature of proof-reading, the intent gets read as often (if not more so) than what is actually there.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

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