VisorCentral.com - I just lost a whole 8m Springboard

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- Visor Prism (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=19)
-- I just lost a whole 8m Springboard (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=11603)

Posted by pixelator on 02-07-2001 06:36 AM:

I'm selling my Prism. The FileMover app crashed during a transfer and corrupted my module - now I've lost everything on the thing. This is the second time my Prism has wiped. The first time I was in Hawaii on vacation adjusting the brightness and POOF - - the system RAM was gone. Now it's the POS FileMover and Springboard Flash module.

I'm gone, Handspring. I can pull the CF out of a Cassiopeia until the cows come home and it won't even soft-reboot like the Springboard does to the Visors. I never had my old E-100 lose everything like this. It's poorly developed apps and a severely limited hardware architecture.

Check out the For Sale area to see a NICE Prism setup for cheap!

E-125, here I come.

b

__________________
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bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
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Posted by sagent on 02-07-2001 12:50 PM:

What about the backup? If you have the silimar experience before, then you should know the importance of backup.

Posted by Brianp on 02-07-2001 02:50 PM:

Well, given this situation, I would say no. Who backs up their flash module??? I keep a backup module with me at all times and use backup buddy, but who has a backup of their flash module? I keep, perhaps naively, leaving my flash module in and don't ever think about backing it up...

As far as the rest goes.. yeah - a backup module is the way to go and you shouldn't leave home without it. I see from the "forsale" posting, however, that he had one of these. (nice price, btw)

How about everyone else? Do you backup your flash module for an event just like this?

Bill: I can definitely identify with losing your visor on the go. My first fatal hard reset with my Vdx was in the car, leaving for a couple days. I was explaining to my wife how valuable a Palm was when *POOF* the reset loop started with no stopping it (except, of course, to hard reset).

Posted by Toby on 02-07-2001 02:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Brianp
Well, given this situation, I would say no. Who backs up their flash module??? I keep a backup module with me at all times and use backup buddy, but who has a backup of their flash module? I keep, perhaps naively, leaving my flash module in and don't ever think about backing it up...

If you have backup buddy, it should be trivial to back up your flash module. It's as simple as checking another box from what I understand.

quote:
Bill: I can definitely identify with losing your visor on the go. My first fatal hard reset with my Vdx was in the car, leaving for a couple days. I was explaining to my wife how valuable a Palm was when *POOF* the reset loop started with no stopping it (except, of course, to hard reset).

I notice that Bill didn't include a few things which he included on his Usenet post of this same rant. The main one being that he was running hacks off the springboard module. That was likely the root and total cause of his problems. Good luck in the PocketPC world, Bill. Hope you find things more to your liking there.

Posted by Winchell on 02-07-2001 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Brianp
How about everyone else? Do you backup your flash module for an event just like this?

Yes.
There is a setting in BackupBuddy that will archive the contents of the 8 meg flash ram.

There is such a thing as a Visor getting stolen or lost, you know. (along with the inserted flash ram)

__________________
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Posted by Fleabag on 02-07-2001 04:27 PM:

Back up module always a good solution

My Visor crashed (forgot the exact error message) while backing up to the back up module. Ok, only way around the crash was a hard reset. No big deal, I have a backup on the module. Nope, the crash wiped out all the data on the module and the hard reset wiped out all the data on the Visor. Nice!

Posted by pixelator on 02-07-2001 05:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

If you have backup buddy, it should be trivial to back up your flash module. It's as simple as checking another box from what I understand.

I do have Backup Buddy (and you apparently don't, so I'm confused as to why you're commenting that it should have been 'trivial' to activate it). I didn't see the Module backup portion, otherwise I would have. Besides, it's irrelevant. The FileMover should not be so unstable as to corrupt the module if a transfer is interrupted. PERIOD.

I notice that Bill didn't include a few things which he included on his Usenet post of this same rant. The main one being that he was running hacks off the springboard module. That was likely the root and total cause of his problems. Good luck in the PocketPC world, Bill. Hope you find things more to your liking there.

This has nothing to do with 'not liking' the Palm world. I believe I am very well qualified to say that I like the PalmOS just fine, having owned a IIIe, V, two Vx's, two IIIc's and now a Prism. I've also owned a Casio E-100 and E-115. The latter two devices were more reliable, easier to use and better designed to take advantage of extra memory. The Springboard 8MB Flash module smacks of a garage-built rig by comparison. You can't even write to records and databases from inside many applications when they're stored on the module. The new CF adapters are a joke... Can't even run anything from them at all.

And by the way, the hacks were NOT the cause of the problem. Why then would this error never have come up before? All I'm running is Afterburner. I find it highly unlikely that hack is in any way responsible - especially since nobody has mentioned having any such incompatibilities before now. What was likely the culprit was me running out of RAM on the module... Which OUGHT to have triggered a failsafe aborting of the transfer and NOT a fatal crash corrupting the module. In other words, sorry, but this is hardly a 'User Error' situation.

b

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by VM on 02-07-2001 06:45 PM:

I had Afterburner on my Prism (not on the flash module) and used to get crashes on removing the module and more annoyingly, couldn't hotsync more than once without a soft reset. I have a shedload of hacks running but was too lazy to eliminate them one by one, so put up with it.

I also experienced the Filemover wipeout you described, especially with failed compacting with <1Mb space free on the module. This was a pain, but Backupbuddy and the backup module made restoration of my 14Mb of stuff easier than restoring my 3x in the old days after a hard reset.

I ditched Afterburner for ClockupDA and have a perfectly running Prism now with none of the niggles mentioned above for about 3 weeks now. I hear what you're saying but I'm chuffed to bits with my Prism and my PPC mates remain jealous at the programmes I can get for PalmOS for the medical (and gaming) world.

Posted by purplemd on 02-07-2001 07:09 PM:

My Prism crashed every single time I tried to the scroll buttons more than 3 times in the FAF application when I was using Afterburner.

I posted to this group...disabled then deleted afterburner and have had no difficulty with the 8 meg module...until that compacting thing...but again, I posted to this group, learned what to do and have had no problems.

How much you selling that Prism for? ;-)

Posted by homer on 02-07-2001 07:23 PM:

quote:

If you have backup buddy, it should be trivial to back up your flash module. It's as simple as checking another box from what I understand.

In otherwords, if you purchase an additional 3rd-party application for $30, THEN you can back up your 8mb Flash Module.

I agree that this is just poor software/hardware engineering. Handspring should have made the flash module both read and writeable from the syncing process AND have it back-up by default without having to purchase 3rd party applications.

I use my 8mb module mainly for items that I could live without if they ever were to become corrupted (a dictionary and some maps). Which really isn't the best use of it, IMO.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by pixelator on 02-07-2001 08:26 PM:

Thanks for an informative reply.

I should have set BB to backup the module, but I didn't notice it could do that. Too late now. I still shouldn't have to use a third party app to backup my module, IMHO.

I never had any problems with AB 3.0t and the FileMover or the module before. I had carefully set it to 42MHz so as not to interfere with HotSync or other functions like beaming. It did have less than 1M free, which I am thinking is part and parcel of the failed compacting you describe on the module. Again, I do not think AB has anything to do with that.

I had problems with ClockupDA - primarily beaming and sync. I also preferred AB's wide range of options and ease of use. It's all a moot point now, anyway. I was looking forward to upgrading the internal RAM to 16MB and getting a 16MB Springboard, but I'm sick of this.

Again, thanks for the post. Were I to stick with the Prism (which is a cool machine, yes), I'd take much of your advice to heart.

b

quote:
Originally posted by VM
I had Afterburner on my Prism (not on the flash module) and used to get crashes on removing the module and more annoyingly, couldn't hotsync more than once without a soft reset. I have a shedload of hacks running but was too lazy to eliminate them one by one, so put up with it.

I also experienced the Filemover wipeout you described, especially with failed compacting with <1Mb space free on the module. This was a pain, but Backupbuddy and the backup module made restoration of my 14Mb of stuff easier than restoring my 3x in the old days after a hard reset.

I ditched Afterburner for ClockupDA and have a perfectly running Prism now with none of the niggles mentioned above for about 3 weeks now. I hear what you're saying but I'm chuffed to bits with my Prism and my PPC mates remain jealous at the programmes I can get for PalmOS for the medical (and gaming) world.

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by Toby on 02-07-2001 08:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pixelator
I do have Backup Buddy (and you apparently don't, so I'm confused as to why you're commenting that it should have been 'trivial' to activate it).

I don't own it, but I did try it out briefly and did see the check box. I just had no way to verify that it worked (since I don't own the flash module). If I noticed it in the brief time that I tried it out, I'd think someone who actually had a stake in noticing it would have.

quote:
I didn't see the Module backup portion, otherwise I would have. Besides, it's irrelevant.

Well, it was one of your complaints.

quote:
The FileMover should not be so unstable as to corrupt the module if a transfer is interrupted. PERIOD.

Why shouldn't it be? If I'm trying to write to many removable storage devices and something interrupts the process, there can be corruption.

quote:
This has nothing to do with 'not liking' the Palm world.

I didn't say that you disliked the Palm world. I said that I hoped the PocketPC world was more to your liking.

quote:
I believe I am very well qualified to say that I like the PalmOS just fine, having owned a IIIe, V, two Vx's, two IIIc's and now a Prism.

I never said you were unqualified for anything. You seem to show a definite fickleness where PDAs are concerned, though.

quote:
I've also owned a Casio E-100 and E-115. The latter two devices were more reliable, easier to use and better designed to take advantage of extra memory.

Well, our anecdotal differences vary obviously. I'm happy with my Visor Deluxe, and hopefully you'll be happy with your E-125. Considering that you're already looking to the M-505, though, I'm sure that's not likely.

quote:
The Springboard 8MB Flash module smacks of a garage-built rig by comparison.

Some of the best inventions have been garage-built rigs.

quote:
You can't even write to records and databases from inside many applications when they're stored on the module.

This is a limitation of flash memory as a whole, not just the springboard implementation.

quote:
The new CF adapters are a joke... Can't even run anything from them at all.

I don't believe anyone claimed that one could yet. If they don't meet your expectations, then maybe you're better off looking elsewhere.

quote:
And by the way, the hacks were NOT the cause of the problem.

That seems to conflict with what was said on Usenet.

quote:
Why then would this error never have come up before?

Dumb luck?

quote:
All I'm running is Afterburner.

LOL...and an overclocker couldn't possibly causing any problems.

quote:
I find it highly unlikely that hack is in any way responsible - especially since nobody has mentioned having any such incompatibilities before now.

Why should anyone have to mention that something which hooks into the hardware and OS at a low level might cause problems if removed unexpectedly? People have crashes with hacks onboard all the time. Why should sticking them on removable media make them any more stable?

quote:
What was likely the culprit was me running out of RAM on the module... Which OUGHT to have triggered a failsafe aborting of the transfer and NOT a fatal crash corrupting the module. In other words, sorry, but this is hardly a 'User Error' situation.

I think it was definitely a "User Expectation" situation combined with somewhat of a "User Error" situation.

quote:
Originally posted by homer
In otherwords, if you purchase an additional 3rd-party application for $30, THEN you can back up your 8mb Flash Module.

In this case, more of a "you already own software which can back up the module, so don't complain that the software can't back up the module" thing.

quote:
I agree that this is just poor software/hardware engineering. Handspring should have made the flash module both read and writeable from the syncing process AND have it back-up by default without having to purchase 3rd party applications.

Have you tried suggesting it to them? What was their response?

Posted by homer on 02-07-2001 10:12 PM:

quote:

Have you tried suggesting it to them? What was their response?

The ONLY personal response I get from Handspring is when I email Donna Dubinsky. And, for the record, she has always gone out of her way (especially considering her job isn't to handle customer support) to make things better.

I'd imagine that allowing the module to hotsync was always a feature that they would have liked to add. For whatever reason (technical, Palm OS...what have you) they couldn't.

I have an 8mb module and it is nice. It is useful, but it really isn't as useful as it could be. The fact that it does not hotsync means that it really isn't the same as just having a 16mb visor.

Oh well.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by Jon Etkins on 02-07-2001 11:02 PM:

Re: Back up module always a good solution

quote:
Originally posted by Fleabag
My Visor crashed (forgot the exact error message) while backing up to the back up module. Ok, only way around the crash was a hard reset. No big deal, I have a backup on the module. Nope, the crash wiped out all the data on the module and the hard reset wiped out all the data on the Visor. Nice!

It's for exactly this reason that one should never rely on a single backup medium. If the machine crashes while you're overwriting the only backup you have, then you're toast. For this reason, I use both a backup module and BackupBuddy (and I backup my Palm directory to tape every night.)

If I was going anywhere where a backup module was my only available medium, then I'd be sure to take TWO and alternate between them so that the worst-case scenario of a crash during backup would not leave me without at least one copy of my data.

Perhaps this may sound a little paranoid, but several years as a mainframe storage administrator taught me to prepare for the worst, and I've never once in 10+ years of PC and PDS ownership lost more than 24 hours' worth of updates even after total hardware failures.

If it's important to you, back it up. If it's critical, back it up more than once.

Posted by Jon Etkins on 02-07-2001 11:07 PM:

Sorry, but I have to say that all this whining about the inability to update data in flash is a load of hooey. Flash memory is an entirely different animal from system RAM, and the very differences that make it non-volatile in the case of power failure also mean that it cannot be updated directly as RAM can.

The Palm units that feature flash memory are subject to the same restriction - you can move stuff to and from, and access it while it's in there, but you can't write to it directly.

It's not a Handspring failing, it's the nature of the beast.

Posted by Paul Biba on 02-08-2001 03:19 AM:

I'm a bit surprised that anyone would ever try to do a backup while running an overclocking program, no matter how stable that program seems to be. I run an overclocked computer (Pentium III 750 running at 1.008 GHz) and have become well aware of the stresses overclocking puts on various parts of the machine. Not only on the processor, but on the various system busses that transfer information within the machine. I'm not sure how the Palm programs work, but if they also increase any system bus speed then there is a siginificant probability that the unit at the end of the buss (in this case the Springboard module) won't be able to communicate properly. Sometimes the tolerances for these things are minimal. With overclocking the fact that a program runs normally does not at all mean that some other part of the system will fail when put under stress.

Posted by Mingfinity on 02-08-2001 05:43 AM:

I am suprised too

Someone try to blame the software or hardware on his Visor and he is running over clock software!! If the CPU is really stable in 40MHz then the CPU in Visor should be 40MHz but not 33MHz. It runs at 33MHz coz Motorola already tested and certified. If you run at 33MHz and crashes, it is software or hardware problem, but at 40MHz, it's at your own risk.

Posted by pixelator on 02-08-2001 07:44 AM:

Originally posted by Toby

quote:

...if I noticed it in the brief time that I tried it out, I'd think someone who actually had a stake in noticing it would have.

Unless like me, you had an old version of the software that didn't have the feature.

"The FileMover should not be so unstable as to corrupt the module if a transfer is interrupted. PERIOD."

quote:

Why shouldn't it be? If I'm trying to write to many removable storage devices and something interrupts the process, there can be corruption.

The file in question, sure. The entire module? No. Does your entire hard drive blank every time you get a corrupted file transfer? No. Neither should a file being moved by FileMover. I do not consider that a pipe dream by any means.

quote:

I didn't say that you disliked the Palm world. I said that I hoped the PocketPC world was more to your liking.

Which implies that I am liking the Palm world less. Again, I will state that the Palm world in general has been very good to me. But I've painted myself into a corner with the Prism and with this ultimate failing, I am sick of the rinky-dink quality in both hardware and software -- Especially considering the price point.

quote:

I never said you were unqualified for anything. You seem to show a definite fickleness where PDAs are concerned, though.

And I feel especially qualified to be fickle when I am plunking down $450 for a handheld computing device.

quote:

Well, our anecdotal differences vary obviously. I'm happy with my Visor Deluxe, and hopefully you'll be happy with your E-125. Considering that you're already looking to the M-505, though, I'm sure that's not likely.

Unless the m505 possesses a more sophisticated file transfer system, costs under $550 and has at least a modicum of improvements over the previous Palm devices to set it apart graphically and capability-wise, I doubt my enjoyment of my E-125 (or whatever I get) will be diminished. Many of the rumored capabilities of the m505 (playing movies, more efficient memory storage, 16-bit color screen) have been present on the Cassiopeia E-series for literally years.

quote:

Some of the best inventions have been garage-built rigs.

While still in the garage phase. We're talking about expensive electronics products you can buy in stores. The distinction between the two goes without saying.

"You can't even write to records and databases from inside many applications when they're stored on the module."

quote:

This is a limitation of flash memory as a whole, not just the springboard implementation.

Only on the Visors/Palms. On a PocketPC, Compact Flash and SD cards can be accessed just like system RAM. On my E-100, I can write, copy and erase files from within applications such as Pocket Artist.

quote:

I don't believe anyone claimed that one could yet. If they don't meet your expectations, then maybe you're better off looking elsewhere.

Hello, my name is Bill. Welcome to the thread. Since you've obviously just suffered a lapse of short term memory, allow me to invite you to re-read the last couple of messages from me on this subject clearly stating that "looking elsewhere" is exactly what I am doing...

quote:

That seems to conflict with what was said on Usenet.

Uh, how does it conflict? None of my hacks were on the module. Nobody can really state with any authority how Afterburner could have caused a compression failure or even an interruption of the transfer. It never happened before. More likely, it was an artifact of the module being almost full and the FileMover software failing to check compression routines properly.

"Why then would this error never have come up before?"

quote:

Dumb luck?

That's charming. Well, I suppose that's as scientific as you can get in the face of the fact that it's never happened before, so feel free to be rude.

"All I'm running is Afterburner."

quote:
LOL...and an overclocker couldn't possibly causing any problems.

It never did before. It was set to run at 42MHz, and allowed beaming and syncing with no problem. If you can tell me exactly why it would have caused a problem, feel free. Otherwise, you're just looking like an ass blaming my use of an overclocker for whatever problems I might have. Sorry, I'm not going to sit here and let you blame ME for losing all that data. But do remind me to do the same for you the next time you have a similar loss.

quote:

Why should anyone have to mention that something which hooks into the hardware and OS at a low level might cause problems if removed unexpectedly? People have crashes with hacks onboard all the time. Why should sticking them on removable media make them any more stable?

If you actually read the Usenet thread, you'd see that it wasn't on the module after all. And again, my Prism ran FINE with AB set @ 42MHz.

quote:

I think it was definitely a "User Expectation" situation combined with somewhat of a "User Error" situation.

Congratulations, you are now officially behaving as a child would who has been told his favorite toy isn't as good as he thought. Must be ME, yes? Can't possibly be the FileMover or the compression of data. Yep, I broke my own module and I deserve my data loss.

The "User Error" here is that I picked the Prism and module to begin with and left my E-100 at home. The "User Expectation" was certainly at fault insofar as I expected it to FUNCTION PROPERLY. Sort of like my other failed "User Expectation" of my fellow Visor owners being sympathetic to my situation rather than pointing a finger of blame at my 'reckless' use of an overclocker as the cause apparent of the problem.

b

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by pixelator on 02-08-2001 07:48 AM:

All the people blaming the overclocker: If you can come up with an actual theory as to how running my Prism at 42MHz (with fully operational sync and beaming and NO prior crashes at that speed) would cause the FileMover to give me a chunk-related error and corrupt my Module, feel free.

Otherwise, you're blaming me for something that may certainly not have actually caused my loss.

But hey, thanks for the support. Why am I suddenly glad to be leaving the Visor fold? We prey on each other should one of us dare blame the product? "Shh! Must be his fault! Blame Afterburner!"

b

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted by pixelator on 02-08-2001 07:51 AM:

Strange then, how WinCE devices have no problem writing, deleting, copying and updating to Compact Flash RAM from within applications...

b

quote:
Originally posted by Jon Etkins
Sorry, but I have to say that all this whining about the inability to update data in flash is a load of hooey. Flash memory is an entirely different animal from system RAM, and the very differences that make it non-volatile in the case of power failure also mean that it cannot be updated directly as RAM can.

The Palm units that feature flash memory are subject to the same restriction - you can move stuff to and from, and access it while it's in there, but you can't write to it directly.

It's not a Handspring failing, it's the nature of the beast.

__________________
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
bill s.
lead artist, the 3do company
visor prism / casio e-100
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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