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Posted by Yorick on 06-12-2002 12:59 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
Isn't that why you join a party? You don't have to pay anything, just mark a box on a piece of paper. Should we change this? No.
That wasn't the point. You were being overly general.__________________
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Posted by Toby on 06-12-2002 01:50 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
[...] Those who are not members of either said party don't get to help pick the party's candidate.
Unless something's changed and I didn't get the memo.
Actually, it depends on the state you're in. Some states (at least at one time) did allow just that. Others are really lenient about party affiliations and changing them. I forget which state in the Southeast it was, but one of them had a lot of Independents and Democrats switch to Republican just to vote to nominate McCain (some for real reasons, and some just because they wanted anybody but Bush).
Posted by Madkins007 on 06-12-2002 04:02 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
All systems are a compromise... I'm not saying a 15 party is better, I'm just saying it is more democratic... one of the values that america prides itself for... But who does say a communist in the US vote for? is there a communist party? who does a 'green' person vote for?
The 2 party system only gives choise to rightwing voters... not very democratic if you ask me...
(and no I am NOT left wing, but I do believe all people should have a choice)
Actually, we DO have a Communist Party, a Socialist Party, a Green party (several of them, actually), libertines, anarchist parties (which I think is a real contradiction in terms;-)), and many more.
In fact, here is a list, links and a brief description of 51 (!!!) American political parties- most of which I have never heard of, and some of which have not yet run a candidate (and a few of which I hope never do, undemocratic as that might be! Check out the "Libertarian National Socialist Green Party, or the Pot Party- for real!)
By the way, the Libertarian Party hosts "The World's Smallest Political Quiz" at http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml- sorta fun, although 'perhaps slightly biased'! (No!, Really? ;-) )
Personally, I wish a couple of these would start to catch on each election. I would love to see a field of 5 or so strong parties coming about in the next several years- maybe then we would really have a CHOICE about who to vote for!
One of the oddities of our system is that people trying to vote for 'the other' parties are sort of penalized for even trying. In the primairies, they are told they are just 'throwing their vote away' by registering anything other than Democrat or Republican.
I can't help but wonder how many Amercians are registered as Dem or Rep just because they either don't know the other options exist or believe they would be wasting their vote registering otherwise.__________________
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Posted by ToolkiT on 06-14-2002 07:39 AM:
interesting link on the ICC issue..
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/fore...,736476,00.html
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Posted by John Nowak on 06-16-2002 01:11 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by tantousha
Also a two party system makes corruption a lot easier...you only have two parties to infiltrate.
Multi-party parliamentary systems are practically designed to be taken over by the lunatic fringe. Hitler came to power in a parliamentary system with about 35% of the popular vote.
It's remarkable that the United States has the oldest republican constitiution in the world -- older than all those in Europe put together -- and foreigners somehow imagine that we're doing it wrong.
Posted by terrysalmi on 06-16-2002 01:31 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
interesting link on the ICC issue..
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/fore...,736476,00.html
She mentions
"But it will also be a lost opportunity if a state with a long-standing commitment to human rights does not take a lead in shaping the work of the world's first international criminal court."
Funny she should mention this. Because this "state with a long-standing commitment to human rights" was recently kicked out of the UN Panel on Human Rights, despite America giving the most money and men to the UN cause. (And the UN is pressuring America to pay back dues...hmm...)__________________
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Victory 2002 - Republicans Win Control of the Senate
Now onto Victory 2004 - FOUR MORE YEARS
Posted by ToolkiT on 06-17-2002 05:48 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
Multi-party parliamentary systems are practically designed to be taken over by the lunatic fringe. Hitler came to power in a parliamentary system with about 35% of the popular vote.
In a 2 party system he probably would have had 60+% of the votes...
The fact he came into power was a mistake, but not due to the multiparty system...
quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
It's remarkable that the United States has the oldest republican constitiution in the world -- older than all those in Europe put together -- and foreigners somehow imagine that we're doing it wrong.
Mmmm holland was allready a republic in 17something... don't think the US was discovered by then yet....
Some of the scandinavian countries were allready republics in viking times (pre 1000 AD).
But older does not always mean better....
Do you honestly believe after last election that your system works?
Not only the fact that there was a lot of weird thing happening on who won, but more the fact a lot of people felt they had not real choice. They had to choose the lesser evil...
Nobody can claim Bush is president because the majority of the american people thought he was the right candidate.__________________
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Posted by Yorick on 06-17-2002 06:34 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Mmmm holland was allready a republic in 17something... don't think the US was discovered by then yet....
I think you mean "established" not "discovered." The continent was discovered by Europeans in 1492, remember? And by Iceland prior to that.
According to HollandHistory.com the current Constitutional Monarchy was established in 1815, which I gather was similar to the Batavian Republic set up in 1795 to replace the "Old Republic." Napoleon was in power between 1805-1813. My World Almanac concurs. This is all a) super-simplified and b) after the Constitution established the United States of America (written 1787 and considered in effect 1789).
Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland all have parlimentary governments with kings and/or queens. (it says here.)__________________
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Posted by BudPritchard on 06-17-2002 06:43 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Do you honestly believe after last election that your system works?
Yes.....Always has and always will ---- IN THE LONG RUN --- that is what counts!
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Not only the fact that there was a lot of weird thing happening on who won, but more the fact a lot of people felt they had not real choice. They had to choose the lesser evil...
Always happens here, for example, for me it was Clinton or Bush. The Christian Coalition's influence at the Rebublic convention is one example that swayed me into Clinton's camp.
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Nobody can claim Bush is president because the majority of the american people thought he was the right candidate.
HORSEHOCKEY!!!
Besides the fact that I thought he was a boob and didn't vote for him. He is our president and he has my support. However, I and all Americans can agree to to disagree.
Baseline is.... don't screw with us..Pearl Harbor and Twin Towers has shown twice not to awake the sleeping bear. Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid the ultimate price.
Posted by tantousha on 06-17-2002 07:05 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by BudPritchard
Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid the ultimate price.
There go the American's waving their nukes again...I think the world should take them away and send America to the corner for a time-out. It's the good ol' "my daddy could beat up your daddy" syndrom. And yes Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid the ultimate price but everyone, from the president to the scientists who created it, regretted what they had done. Nukes are (despite popular American belief) the deepest and darkest of all evils. They take warfare from the battle fields and unleash on thousands of innocent civilians. Civilians that may not be for "The bad guys" but get swallowed up anyhow. Imagine if Pakistan or India launched a Nuke at New York because of something Bush did. Most people in New York are Democrats and dislike Bush, but they still have to die even though they voted against him.
America please stop waving your nukes, we know they're there and we really wish they weren't
Alex.
P.S. Don't think I support France, Pakistan, India and Russia having nukes either. Convert them all into Nuclear Power, now there's a peaceful solution.
Posted by ToolkiT on 06-17-2002 08:12 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by BudPritchard
Baseline is.... don't screw with us..Pearl Harbor and Twin Towers has shown twice not to awake the sleeping bear. Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid the ultimate price.
The more I hear, the more you prove the US wants to be the bully of the world...
Sure use your nuke to proof your point, see how quick it comes back at you...
Don't you see that this attitude is the exact reason the Muslin extremist are PO'd about.... the more you enforce this attitude, the more terrorist you will create... look at Palestina, the more military actions Israel does, the more suicide bombers are created....
Peacefull coexisting and mutual respect is the answer.. not violence and nukes...
p.s. don't you just love the way Bush uses the war on terrorism to push any idea through:
http://news.com.com/2100-1033-935874.html?tag=fd_top
Yeah right, broadband against terrorism.. wasn't he saying a while ago the terrorists use the internet to communicate?
So now he wants them to communicat even easier?
Or is this step one (actually step x where x is a fairly big number by now) to the masterplan to spy on everybody?__________________
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Posted by Toby on 06-17-2002 03:03 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
[...] Nobody can claim Bush is president because the majority of the american people thought he was the right candidate.
Almost no President could make the claim that the majority of the USian people thought he was the right candidate, nor does it matter. The POTUS is no more a direct representative of my interests than Ted Kennedy is (even if the guy I vote for wins). That's why he's not elected by a popular vote. The electoral college is designed to give people the same say in the Executive branch which they have in the Legislative.
Posted by John Nowak on 06-17-2002 05:12 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Don't you see that this attitude is the exact reason the Muslin extremist are PO'd about.... the more you enforce this attitude, the more terrorist you will create... look at Palestina, the more military actions Israel does, the more suicide bombers are created....
Our attitude is why Australia is not part of Japan.
Posted by terrysalmi on 06-17-2002 06:53 PM:
quote:
Nobody can claim Bush is president because the majority of the american people thought he was the right candidate.
That's awfully funny you mention that, because have you looked at his approval ratings recently? They have been the highest of any president, and have not dropped below 70% in over 8 months. Not bad for a President that does not represent the people. Compare this to Clinton's hovering around 50% all the time, never getting too much higher (but a lot worse).
In a Parliament system, how often is the leading party getting 50% of the votes? Almost never. That is why a Government must be created out of a coalition. A majority then voted for the government, but sides still hate eachother within it!
Americans feel they made the right choice in November 2001. Ask almost any democrat that voted for Al Gore how the country would be if he was President during 9-11. They all say they are glad they didn't have to find out.
That is what is great about the American system. We might not immediately agree with who won, but when the decision is made, we all stick to it and pledge our full support to the President. There are no riots, there are no killings. There is no burning the White House. That is because of the faith we have in our system, and that is the ultimate sign that our Democracy works.
Our country has stuck to one form of Government for 213 years. There has only been one large movement of anyone that wanted to break away from our Union, and that is because Slavery is such a strong issue, it could break apart any form of Government. Compare this to Argentina, or Yugoslavia, or almost anywhere else in the world that elects a Government.__________________
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Victory 2002 - Republicans Win Control of the Senate
Now onto Victory 2004 - FOUR MORE YEARS
Posted by John Nowak on 06-17-2002 11:36 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
In a 2 party system he probably would have had 60+% of the votes...
The fact he came into power was a mistake, but not due to the multiparty system...
Wrong. Hitler was able to set up a coalition with majority Centrist parties.
It was exactly the same situation which put LePen in the runoff in France.
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Mmmm holland was allready a republic in 17something... don't think the US was discovered by then yet....
Some of the scandinavian countries were allready republics in viking times (pre 1000 AD).
But older does not always mean better....
Do you honestly believe after last election that your system works?
Not only the fact that there was a lot of weird thing happening on who won, but more the fact a lot of people felt they had not real choice. They had to choose the lesser evil...
Nobody can claim Bush is president because the majority of the american people thought he was the right candidate.
Yes, our system did work; although almost by accident. I was pretty ambivilent until Election Night when a news agency called Bush the winner prematurely. Then we got to see Al Gore under pressure. Not being bright enough to understand that projections are flawed, he panicked and conceded the election unneccessarily. He lost his nerve, chickened out, quit, and then went back on his decision.
Posted by John Nowak on 06-17-2002 11:42 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
The more I hear, the more you prove the US wants to be the bully of the world...
Wow -- kill three thousand people, and we get all grumpy. I feel so guilty now.
Posted by John Nowak on 06-17-2002 11:50 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Don't you see that this attitude is the exact reason the Muslin extremist are PO'd about.... the more you enforce this attitude, the more terrorist you will create... look at Palestina, the more military actions Israel does, the more suicide bombers are created....
Wrong again. There have been fewer successful suicide bombers in Israel since the incursion.
Also, the Muslim extremists are motivated by a hunt for scapegoats for their own utter inability to govern countries.
Posted by ToolkiT on 06-18-2002 01:19 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
Our attitude is why Australia is not part of Japan.
Newsflash!
US did not win WWII, the allied forces did, and mainly because of the eastern front.
If it wasn't for the rusians europe would be speaking German now, asiapacific would be speaking japanese and the US would be an island under constant attack...
Get your history right...__________________
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Posted by ToolkiT on 06-18-2002 01:31 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
Wrong again. There have been fewer successful suicide bombers in Israel since the incursion.
Don't know the statistics on that, but there may be less succesful suicide bombers, but there definately will be more attempts....
And now you will probably say: but what does matter? attempts or succesfull ones?
The answer is both, if you take away the root of the problem you have none...
Same story with US and its international politics... if this keeps up they will isolate themselves from the rest of the world, forcing themself to use more force, which will result in people retaliating stronger etc etc.. its a vicious circle..
To me it looks like the US is looking for new 'russians' now with the cold war over they have no enemy.. this scares a lot of people in the US since their source of income depends on that...
A lot of people benefit from having an enemy again...
Why doesnt the US just try to get allong with the rest of the world?__________________
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Posted by ToolkiT on 06-18-2002 01:40 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
In a Parliament system, how often is the leading party getting 50% of the votes? Almost never.
Finally somebody picks this up... it was the achilles heel.
But, the parliament system is not designed to do that, while a 2 party system is...
quote:
Originally posted by terrysalmi
That is why a Government must be created out of a coalition. A majority then voted for the government, but sides still hate eachother within it!
Maybe in Israel they hate the coalition partners, I don't know, but in most other countries they choose the coalition so the parties involved feel the same about key issues.
Coalitions are a good thing, it forces people to work together and see other peoples views and negociate...
This way more people get involved in the governement and things aren't black and white...
Besides that... people have the choise to vote for parties through the whole spectrum en not just 2 rightwing parties...
(and no I'm not a lefty, but I do feel people should have the choice to vote for the party they feel is right, even if I think that party is insane...that is the basis of democracy...)__________________
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