VisorCentral.com - More Memory !

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show 20 posts from this thread on one page

VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Springboard Modules (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10)
-- More Memory ! (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=9700)

Posted by Skyray on 11-30-2000 10:41 PM:

Actually, guys, it's not a planned obsolescence strategy. Rather, the Motorola processors used in Palms and Visors can only address a fixed amount of memory. The way the memory is mapped out with RAM and ROM, that only leaves 8MB.

Probably seemed like plenty back when the 128K Pilot 1000 was designed. (Hardware designers never learn...)

So a move past 8MB of memory will require a new CPU. I get the impression Palm plans to move away from the Dragonall eventually. The RAM limitations and the 160x160 screen are both due to the Dragonball CPU designs.

Posted by yucca on 12-01-2000 02:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Skyray
So a move past 8MB of memory will require a new CPU.

While I'm in agreement with most of your post, the quoted statement is not entirely true. You can access storage that is larger than 8MB. I believe that there is a performance hit in accessing non-system board memory, but you can even run a properly designed app from off mainboard memory (but will this work for >8MB SBMs?). For examples of Palm compatible storage that is larger than 8MB, see Thincom's upcoming 16MB module, and the exploits of the TRGPro. I would reference the MiniJam, but that feature is not yet supported . . .

Posted by zelchenko on 12-01-2000 04:22 AM:

you just proved my point

quote:
Originally posted by Skyray
Actually, guys, it's not a planned obsolescence strategy. Rather, the Motorola processors used in Palms and Visors can only address a fixed amount of memory. The way the memory is mapped out with RAM and ROM, that only leaves 8MB.

Probably seemed like plenty back when the 128K Pilot 1000 was designed. (Hardware designers never learn...)

So a move past 8MB of memory will require a new CPU. I get the impression Palm plans to move away from the Dragonall eventually. The RAM limitations and the 160x160 screen are both due to the Dragonball CPU designs.

Nice illustrations of the planned obsolenscence strategy while simultaneously denying that it exists. Way cool!

Posted by Babylon5 on 12-01-2000 03:24 PM:

Re: yes, i know about the cf adapter

quote:
Originally posted by zelchenko
Yes, I am aware of the CF adapter project--but it is plagued by the same memory management limitations of any flash module on the visor. Plus, the power constraints on the SB slot prohibit you from using power hungry CF modules like the microdrive.

The Dragonball processor is the problem, not HS or Palm. Once they move out of that processor things will improve. We are using grand fathered technology that they had to use so that all software would run on it.

My point is HS added an extra 8 megs using the flash module and that was nice but was limited to only that 8 megs. This project means you can have tons of information stored right there in CF. Right now it is like the TRGPro in you have to copy the software to RAM first but once (if?) they get the FAAutomover program working it will allow you to have all your documents and databases right there read only. You won�t have to manually copy anything. I know it isn�t perfect but it is REALLY close to having that in pure RAM. I mean even now I have tons of documents in my 64 meg CF card and just do a simple copy to RAM, read it and then delete it if I want to. It is all there right with me.

I had a few games I keep on it but not taking up RAM space and just yesterday at the doctors I was bored waiting for my appointment so copied a few over and played them. If I didn�t have the CF card I would not have been able to easily have software available like that. 64 MEGS will hold a LOT of stuff. I don�t have to download it. I also bought a USB CF reader so just pop it in that and read/write to it like any disk right on the PC, Mac would be the same. I don�t have to download them into the Prism�s RAM then copy it over. I can download a ton of things and just copy the .prc and .pdb files over to it direct.

Also the Microdrive is what 350 megs? That is nice but you can buy CF cards approaching that now and CF is cheaper from what I read. You can just carry a few CF cards if you need even more, they are small, to swap. Wow I filled my 64 meg card, pop in another one and off you go. Also Microdrives draw way too much power and I don�t trust anything with moving parts like that. CF is solid state and won�t die if you drop it.

I guess I am just saying that this is the next best thing.

I have nothing to do with this project except following it as it works for me. I think Kopsis is doing a GREAT job of letting us expand our Visors beyond what was thought possible.

__________________
I don't NEED color, I crave it!
<BR>Just a fan! <A HREF=" http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/ "><IMG SRC=" http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/nav/foot-station.gif "></A><BR>

Posted by potter on 12-01-2000 03:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Skyray
Actually, guys, it's not a planned obsolescence strategy. Rather, the Motorola processors used in Palms and Visors can only address a fixed amount of memory. The way the memory is mapped out with RAM and ROM, that only leaves 8MB.

That may have been the case with the original Dragon Ball processor used in the 1000, 5000, Personal, Professional and the original Palm III. Actually I know that it is not completely true, for I remember TRG produced some prototypes of a 12Meg card for use in those Palms. They never brought it to market. I assume because of high production cost vs. low demand (at that time). I do know more about the Dragon Ball EZ processor, used since the IIIx and V (and in the Visor and Visor Deluxe). The EZ has (after a little decoding logic) 8 chip select lines. The first 4 can select 16Meg each, and the last 4 4Meg each. I would assume one is used for the system ROM and one for the system RAM. I know that 2 of the 16Meg lines are used for the Springboard. One would thus assume that the Palm architecture could easily be expanded to 16Meg of main system memory.

quote:
Probably seemed like plenty back when the 128K Pilot 1000 was designed. (Hardware designers never learn...)

Actually I think I would blame the OS designers. If one has a limited memory space, there is only so much you can squeeze in. (So much for this, so much for that ... How much is left for the system memory? 12Meg, okay.) However the OS designers should have put in a hardware abstraction layer for the time when the memory map will change.

quote:
I get the impression Palm plans to move away from the Dragonall eventually.

Last rumor I remember was the Strong-ARM Palms would be available 2002.

quote:
The RAM limitations and the 160x160 screen are both due to the Dragonball CPU designs.

quote:
From the Dragonball EZ's spec sheet:
LCD Controller[LIST]
Software programmable screen size ( up to 640*512 )[...]
[/LIST]

Posted by potter on 12-01-2000 05:21 PM:

P.S.
After a little poking around on the net, I found a copy of the Memory Map of the Palm 1000. RAM starts at x1000,0000 and the system ROM starts at 0x10C0,0000. From that, there is space for 12Meg of RAM. A quick check on my VDX shows that this has not changed. Looking at the "Visor Rom with USB - HOWTO discussion", it appears to have change on the Prism. Note: The Prism and the Platinum are the first Palm devices to use the Dragon Ball VZ. Also someone mentioned seeing a database by the name of "Hal". Possibly the Hardware Abstraction Layer I said was needed. Quick check ... a "HAL" file is on my VDX, with a creator ID of 'HsEx' which would indicate that this is a Handspring Extension.

Posted by MPM on 12-01-2000 09:50 PM:

Dragonball EZ is limited to 8MB of RAM

potter is correct: The 8MB limit is due to the Dragonball EZ processor. I just checked the data sheets for the original Dragonball, the MC68328, and the newer Dragonball EZ, the MC68EZ328.

The orginal Dragonball did NOT have a DRAM controller built into it. Palm used psuedo-static DRAM which is DRAM that refreshes itself, but looks to processor like SRAM (static RAM). This coupled with the memory map of the Palms gave room for 12MB of RAM total. Hence TRG's 12MB upgrade.

Now the Dragonball EZ does have a DRAM controller. BUT it is limited to 8MB of RAM total. NO MORE! Hence any Palm unit based upon the Dragonball EZ is limited to 8MB of DRAM, period.

I also checked the Dragonball VZ datasheet. It does say that the VZ supports up to 32MB of SDRAM. It also says that it supports up to two banks of DRAM. This seems to indicate suppport for up to 64MB of RAM but I'm not sure. The datasheet also does not indicate a limit for EDO type DRAM. The VZ datasheet is not very detailed here.

So maybe the Prism and Platinum can go to 32MB or even 64MB of RAM, if they used SDRAM. Anybody have any more details here?

Posted by zelchenko on 12-02-2000 04:17 AM:

uh, no

The Microdrive currently maxes out at 1 gig, and that came out a couple months ago. I wonder how much IBM can squeeze out of that form-factor for a non-solid-state design.

Posted by bkbk on 12-03-2000 04:25 AM:

FWIW, I think a 2Gb PCMCIA Microdrive was just released (though I know no SB is looking at supporting PCMICA right now).
FWIW, I think per-Mb cost is always better on Microdrive than on the solid-state cards, but you take a hit w/moving parts.
FWIW, I think when the Palm III was released, I remember reading a PC Mag. article about the Palm OS's ability to address up to 4Gb of memory.

I guess, yeah, we're all a bit spoiled by the usu. frugal Palm OS, and now that a few apps are closing in on 1/2Mb (DateBk4 is the VERY largest Palm OS app right now, isn't it? At like 400kb?).
So, it may not really be a "need," but...
Yeah, having access to CF, etc. ought to be fine for another year or so. If the largest on-board app is 1/2Mb, and you can fit 8 of them into 1/2 of the VDX's RAM, and leave 4Mb to move stuff back & forth (even though all you'd really need is 1/2Mb, since it's the largest app) ... I guess it's not REALLY "planned obs." by HS.
It just seems a little "user un-friendly" esp. from HS, again, because they spoiled us by being first to mkt. w/a 8Mb Palm OS device for $250...
But also because of the SB, and the reality that not all SBs come w/extra memory, even though SOME definitely should. (I'm mostly thinking of the E.M., which requires 187k per photo, on the device (only about 100k when converted on the PC - whuzzup wit dat?) for color photos, which are almost the E.M.'s only usable resolution.)

I just think that for $450 HS had a good oppty. to create a lot of goodwill (and inspire a LOT of people to upgrade) if they made the Prism (and maybe the Plat?) 16Mb ... even if we didn't really "need" it ... we kinda "deserve" it, no? I mean, a lot of us have supported HS since they 1st went public.
But they are in biz., to make a profit, of course...

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:47 AM.

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show 20 posts from this thread on one page