VisorCentral.com - Lawsuits and cameras everywhere one day?

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
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-- Lawsuits and cameras everywhere one day? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=8954)

Posted by echinye on 10-26-2000 03:59 PM:

Heh.. this thread is funny. When everyone was waiting for Minijam to come out, the SoundsGood MP3 player came out unexpectedly. Now that SixPak WILL BE available in 2001, maybe we'll see an EIGHTPak from some company we've never heard off.

Go VaporGear!

__________________
What is new today will be old tomorrow..

Posted by PDAENVY on 10-26-2000 04:15 PM:

Re: Overwhelmed, incompetent etc

quote:
Originally posted by CaptainVisor
The sixpack story really tells all. The product has never made sense and will NEVER be released (at least not for $199).

Do the math: Modem + Vibe + memory Upgrade =
Handspring modem (129.00) + InnoPak (45.00)= $174.00

Your economics is wrong. A module combining Handspring Modem and Innopack would use only one case, only one connector, one set of buffers, etc. More importantly, much of the cost of these products is in one-time r&d, much of which is duplicated between the InnoPak and SixPak. And who knows what kind of profit margin each company aims for?

In this case $129 + $45 is less than $174.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that the SixPack may never come out.

__________________
Jeff

Posted by Bane on 10-26-2000 07:09 PM:

We should not be suprised by this ?

Innovapor must have some of the best mail filters that money can buy. Think now from all of the info requests and complaints and whatnot that just disapeared into the ether . That requires a pretty good filter. I wonder if the expense of maintaining the filter excedes the amount on money that they have made on the 2pak and what few minijams havent been returned ?

_______________________________________
evil is not a matter of perception
or a charactor flaw; it is is a simple
choice

Posted by VTL on 10-26-2000 08:11 PM:

I personally would love to hear from someone at Innogear - maybe Fullerton - with some type of explanation (or even just an apology) as to what the real problem is with the SixPak - an no, "component shortages" is not a sufficient explantion.

We know they used to monitor these discussion boards - there's an old thread on what cellphones people were using.

It's the least they can do. I figure they owe us that much for jerking us around on the release date.

Posted by fubar on 10-26-2000 08:24 PM:

Re: We should not be suprised by this ?

quote:
Originally posted by Bane
Innovapor must have some of the best mail filters that money can buy. Think now from all of the info requests and complaints and whatnot that just disapeared into the ether . That requires a pretty good filter. I wonder if the expense of maintaining the filter excedes the amount on money that they have made on the 2pak and what few minijams havent been returned ?

Nah, doesn't need a good filter....just 'IF {subject} contains {anything} THEN delete'

But honestly, who does Innogear think they're kidding. This time last year we were all looking forward to getting Visors and the SixPac was one of the first modules touted... Now it looks like it was just a pipe dream. We should have known when the TwoPac (2V) came out. I think that's as far as they're going.
And anyway... does the SixPac really have six functions..? It's got a modem (or you can use your cell phone as a modem), it's got a silent alarm (twice over), memory and a voice recorder.... Except the voice recorder was dropped from the MiniJam... And even if it does record voice... where is it going to play it out..???? The Visor has a mic but no speaker remember. If they can't get this function to work on the MiniJam which has all the transport and I/O for sound files, what hope on the SixPac....?

What a joke - I agree with the people above, boycott them.

[Edited by fubar on 10-26-2000 at 03:26 PM]

__________________
-------------------------
how did it all go so wrong?
--------------------------

Posted by dottcomm1 on 10-26-2000 08:34 PM:

six pack

why bother, innogear? i'm waiting for the visor phone. i'm tired of more false promises and delay dates!

Posted by Slacker on 10-27-2000 11:44 AM:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HA
HA

I feel so vindicated! NOW people see what I have been complaingin about all along. Thanks BottomGun for adopting my signature! I guess now everyone will listen when I say ...

__________________
Visor Enthusiast and Innogear/Geodiscovery basher.

Posted by Steve Chrysostom on 10-27-2000 05:39 PM:

Last year when the six-pack was 1st announced my immediate reaction was, "I really can't believe they can put all those features into that small package and have them all work, no matter WHAT they charge." My 2nd reaction was to wait and see. I am very disappointed to be proved correct. I hate to say it, but Innogear richly deserves to suffer the consequences for letting their marketing run away with them.

Posted by timmins on 10-27-2000 07:41 PM:

Here's what I understand... I called up Innogear and refused to get off the line until I found out the information I needed.

I have never purchased anything from them.... ever. I never will, and think no one should. Although, I shouldn't seem as stark now considering that I was all gung-ho about the SixPack. My girlfriend even knew it was a pre-determined purchase of mine. Well, I had it one day... bought the SpringPort. Never been happier with such a reliable product.

SOOOO.... here's the info. Innogear is a very small company. There are only three programmers there that program the Springboards. From what I understand, there is only a handful of people outside the programmers. The programmers are at their wits end with debugging and developing. A lot of emails get deleted because they have no way of answering them.

GO FIGURE...

__________________
what?<br>

Posted by bottomgun on 10-27-2000 08:41 PM:

MiniJam Cancelation

Here is the email that I sent to Innogear's "Customer Fulfillment Agents" (really lack there of!!!):

Jason,
This is the second form email I received from you today. One from Innogear Customer Service and one under your name. What you didn't even investigate was the issue. I had to call last night from overseas on my dime to find out from Jen why I didn't receive my MiniJam in a reasonable time. It was because who ever does service fulfillment for Innogear (i.e. Rushorder???) screwed up the initial shipment and it was returned. NO NOTICE OF THIS ISSUE WAS EVER CONVEYED TO ME OR MY EMAILS RESPONDED TO BUT WITH FLUFF!!! On top of this, I receive notice last night that the competition is offering a $20 rebate and THEN I GET YOUR EMAILS!!! Jen did not offer any goodwill other than a 'sorry', I had to push hard to have delivery upgraded to Priority mail (all of $3).

Your emails were the final straw, I just wasted several dollars calling overseas to speak with Jen again and cancel my order. Please convey to Innogear that I will not be purchasing any further products from them (had been waiting a year for the vaporware Six-Pack besides the Six-Pack). I also intend to exhibit my displeasure concerning the firm (and Rushorder if it is a company) at every opportunity that I can to friends and through the web.

A VERY PISSED-OFF, FORMER CUSTOMER!!
Jay K. Jeffries

I have yet to receive feedback a day later and Innogear still shows my MinJam order through their web site as 'BACKORDERED'...not order canceled. If they send me a MiniJam now, I am putting them on notice as it being an unsolicted order and I will keep the unit and contest the credit card charge.

__________________
Innogear just plain sucks. Their marketing sucks, their development sucks, their public affairs suck, their management sucks, and their service fulfillment house RUSHORDER SUCKS. They just plain suck. I hope they go bankrupt. They deserve it.
__________________
(Courtesy of Slacker)

Posted by bkbk on 10-28-2000 03:30 AM:

CLASS ACTION SUIT

I think it's time.
I've never put together a Class Action Suit, so hopefully someone else out there has a better understanding of how to proceed.
I think just on the false advertising alone (esp. for the phantom "SixPack") we have grounds. They faked the image of the module for their site, of a non-existent prototype. And on top of it, they feed their customers nothing but lies.
I can't see where they have a leg to stand on.
Let's get to it. It's the least we can do.

Posted by Felipe on 10-28-2000 06:28 AM:

Re: CLASS ACTION SUIT

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
I think it's time.
I've never put together a Class Action Suit, so hopefully someone else out there has a better understanding of how to proceed.
I think just on the false advertising alone (esp. for the phantom "SixPack") we have grounds. They faked the image of the module for their site, of a non-existent prototype. And on top of it, they feed their customers nothing but lies.
I can't see where they have a leg to stand on.
Let's get to it. It's the least we can do.

you really think a class action suit can be filed on innogear missing shipping dates? If that were the case, most software companies would never get out of court.

hey, i was waiting for the six pack like a lot of ppl. it didn't come, i moved on. i suggest the rest of you do the same.

__________________
Felipe Garcia
Happy Treo 600 user, so far. Thanx Cingular for having an unlocked phone.

My Treo 600 is my phone, my PDA, my watch, and my MP3 player. Oh yeah, I take a picture once in a while with it. Convergence is such a great thing.

Posted by acajigas on 10-28-2000 05:08 PM:

Re: Re: CLASS ACTION SUIT

quote:
Originally posted by Felipe
quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
I think it's time.
...
I think just on the false advertising alone (esp. for the phantom "SixPack") we have grounds. They faked the image of the module for their site, of a non-existent prototype. And on top of it, they feed their customers nothing but lies.
I can't see where they have a leg to stand on.
Let's get to it. It's the least we can do.

you really think a class action suit can be filed on innogear missing shipping dates? If that were the case, most software companies would never get out of court.

hey, i was waiting for the six pack like a lot of ppl. it didn't come, i moved on. i suggest the rest of you do the same.

I think we have people from Innogear on this board. Hello, Felipe (From LIERGEAR). Please tell us, "Do you feel proud being part of that company?"

On the other hand, if I'm mistaken then I have to say that you are shaking the wrong hand.

And what do you mean by MOVE ON? "Me" as a VDX user can't really move on as much as a Prism or Platinium user. We are "DOOM..!" with Lots and Lots of LIES not only from LIERGEAR but also from BADSPRING (handspring in the past)who promised us the so called wireless modules.

Now I'm really MAD... I wish I had buy a PALM

__________________
It all started way back in February 2000 with a Blue VDX.

Posted by Felipe on 10-28-2000 08:22 PM:

Re: Re: Re: CLASS ACTION SUIT

quote:
Originally posted by acajigas
quote:
Originally posted by Felipe
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bkbk
[B]I think it's time.
...

I think we have people from Innogear on this board. Hello, Felipe (From LIERGEAR). Please tell us, "Do you feel proud being part of that company?"

On the other hand, if I'm mistaken then I have to say that you are shaking the wrong hand.

And what do you mean by MOVE ON? "Me" as a VDX user can't really move on as much as a Prism or Platinium user. We are "DOOM..!" with Lots and Lots of LIES not only from LIERGEAR but also from BADSPRING (handspring in the past)who promised us the so called wireless modules.

Now I'm really MAD... I wish I had buy a PALM

Eventhough I don't work for innogear or handspring, I too wish you went with palm.:-) j/k

Move on, there are other modems that are out not. That work now.

BTW, the wireless modules are out.

Posted by CallmeGoof on 11-13-2000 08:03 PM:

Hey Bottomgun

Dear Slacker,

You know, I read this email and I was thinking you really have no clue what you are talking about! I was waiting on my MiniJam the same as you and I found that even though they delayed things a lot, I finally got it. And I am very pleased with it.

Working in the Customer Service area myself, I know that things do not always go as planned and you have no right to blame people for things that are out of there control. (i.e. Jason, Jen and Rush Order.) Do you think that they were holding your order hostage or something?

I think that you are just Grrr and want to blow off some steam and will ***** to anyone who will listen.

I have found InnoGear (all parts) to be as helpful as they possible can be. When I needed technical assistance, I got it quickly and the matter was resolved without problems. The distribution center (i.e. Rush order???) tried there best to get me the most accurate information.

In short, everyone on here just wants to ***** and moan so that people will feel sorry for them. If you all were that Grrr with the company none of you would have bought anything from them! Duh, you all probably did.

Those of us with patience and understanding know that things happen that can not be avoided. Delay is shipping is common with a new product. I think that InnoGear has done an ok job for a new company!

CallmeGoof

Posted by bkbk on 11-14-2000 08:43 AM:

The subject at hand is NOT MiniJam...
...it is the PHANTOM "SixPack."

It has NEVER existed, but from the start (over 1 yr. now) InnoGear fraudulently "pretended" it did -- with an IMAGE of said phantom "SixPack," as if it had been PROTOTYPED ALREADY.

Then phony "release date" after phony "release date."

This goes way, way, way beyond "deceptive advertising," I believe to the level of fraud, and I think meriting a Class Action Suit.

And, by the way, it SHOULD be illegal for the SW industry as a whole to "perpetually deceive the public about release dates." Sadly, it's time for the U.S. gov't. to step in and levy SERIOUS FINES against companies that play this "unrealistic" game.

Either your product is READY, or shut up about it.

That's why SoundsGood has earned such immense goodwill, not just from Visor owners, but Jeff Hawkins himself.

ASK JEFF HAWKINS WHAT HE THINKS OF INNOGEAR.

Posted by dkessler on 11-14-2000 02:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
This goes way, way, way beyond "deceptive advertising," I believe to the level of fraud, and I think meriting a Class Action Suit.

Really?! And just how exactly were you "damaged" by this "deceptive advertising"? Did your company go out of business because your product couldn't compete with the phantom six-pak? Did you sell one of your internal organs to raise money to buy one on the promise that it would be available soon?

Lets be realistic, unless you have paid up front to fund the development of a product, then you are not out anything if that product doesn't ship on time (or ever). If a company says "we are working on X and hope to have it ready for you to purchase by Y", then it means just exactly that. Not that they will have it ready or are committing to features or a delivery date. If you read more into a statement than what is actually there, then the fault lies with you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Innogear or take any stand at all on how their marketing of the six-pak should affect the public view of the company. Condem, boycott, protest, express your displeasure any way you please ... but don't even think about litigating unless you can prove physical damages! Law suits cost money (win or loose) and just who do you think pays the cost of insuring against frivalous suits? You do! Those costs get passed straight on to the consumer.

quote:
And, by the way, it SHOULD be illegal for the SW industry as a whole to "perpetually deceive the public about release dates." Sadly, it's time for the U.S. gov't. to step in and levy SERIOUS FINES against companies that play this "unrealistic" game.

Of course. Why just make everything more expensive, lets waste a bunch of the taxpayer's money on top of that! Lets get real here. We're talking about a $200 PDA accessory ... its not like they promised a cure for cancer or an unlimited alternate fuel source. The only thing that kind of nonsense would accomplish is to make it even harder to get any kind of real information out of a company. In a free market economy, the market will punish companies that screw up. Let's let the lawyers spend their time helping the people who are really injured.

__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Posted by CallmeGoof on 11-14-2000 05:07 PM:

Jeff Hawkins

Jeff,

You really don't have a clue do you? SOUNDSGOOD????? Uggg! Have you checked out the features compared to the MiniJam??? Read the charts:

1. Price! InnoGear $199 (32mb) $259 (64mb); Good Tech $269 (64mb)
2. Max Storage! InnoGear 128mb, Good Technology 64mb. Did I neglect to mention that you can not even upgrade with the Soundsbad (opps, slip of the tongue, Sounds not so Good!)?
3. Hardware buttons! More buttons and functionality with the MiniJam.
4. System Requirments! The MiniJam is the only product that is MAC OS compatible!

I personally think we should call it Soundsbad!!! Besides I thought that we were discussing the SixPak!

As far as the SixPak is concerned, I am willing to wait for this product! It has more functionality than most things on the market. Everything I need to do will be done with one little device. Try to find a substitute for that!

Besides Jeff! I have called InnoGear, they have not released the product due to testing for cellular capability! At least they are trying to get the facts straight before releasing. (You could learn from them.)

My first reply was to Slackerboy anyway! He was bashing some other company and names of people in the company. If you are going to be getting upset and talking smack, you should point fingers on the ones who are really to blame. I am sure that the other company and the distribution center employees have no control of when a product can be shipped.

How about calling InnoGear and blaming the owner rather than people who have no control? In short, blame the right people so that you don't make yourself look so ignorant!

CallmeGoof

Posted by Gameboy70 on 11-14-2000 05:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bkbk
The subject at hand is NOT MiniJam...
...it is the PHANTOM "SixPack."

It has NEVER existed, but from the start (over 1 yr. now) InnoGear fraudulently "pretended" it did -- with an IMAGE of said phantom "SixPack," as if it had been PROTOTYPED ALREADY.

While it pains me to defend Innogear, they did show a physical prototype of the SixPak at Internet World in Oct. '99. VC had coverage of the even, complete with pictures of the SixPak.

Posted by Gameboy70 on 11-14-2000 05:40 PM:

quote:
And, by the way, it SHOULD be illegal for the SW industry as a whole to "perpetually deceive the public about release dates." Sadly, it's time for the U.S. gov't. to step in and levy SERIOUS FINES against companies that play this "unrealistic" game.

Not only is regulation of software deadlines unrealistic; it's impossible. Anyone who's written anything longer than a couple of thousand lines of code know the First Law of Software Engineering: A programming project takes twice as long as you expect it to, even if you factor in that possibility. Programming is an art, not a science, and there's often too much complexity involved to prevent things from easily getting out of hand.

Unfortunately, you can't get away with telling a customer, "I have no idea when this will be done," which would only make the customer even more upset. All you can do is make an educated guess and insist that your projected date is tentative. I'm not upset at Innogear for shipping late, but for not keeping us apprised of the product's current status, and for providing no explanation or apology for the slipped release dates. Even the Evil Empire went out of their way to communicate with the public when ship dates slipped for NT5/Win2K.

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