VisorCentral.com - Universal Health Coverage: Side-by-Side

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Posted by LaughingMan on 05-14-2003 05:19 PM:

Universal Health Coverage: Side-by-Side

Dear fellow Americans. Since last year, my health insurance premiums have gone up 20 percent. My benefits have been reduced, and some of my relatives have lost coverage as a result of layoffs. What in the world is the Congress doing fighting over the Patients Bill of Rights!? The Patients Bill of Rights is a good bill, but not one more person gets coverage nor is it 5 cents cheaper. Why hasn't Congress start talking about getting the 41 million uninsured people covered so that the United States can join other industrialized nations around the world having universal coverage? This is ridiculous! Even the iraqis had it when they were under Sadaam.

Desperate for answers, I searched for recent health plan proposals made by the democrats. So far, Dick Gephardt and Howard Dean made theirs public. From the side-by-side comparison, I like Howard Dean's proposal. I would like more feedback from you.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/...hcaresidebyside

joe

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joe

Posted by Yorick on 05-15-2003 12:53 AM:

"Health coverage" ? what's that? sounds like a commie plot. Or something Canadians would do. It unAmerican!

heh heh. Sorry. I haven't had any health insurance in years, and since fees for uninsured patrons have tripled over the past couple of years, I can't afford to go to a doctor, even were I bleeding to death. Any reform would be fine with me.

Posted by MarkEagle on 05-15-2003 01:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
I haven't had any health insurance in years

Ahhhhh... that explains the lack of... um... skin!

quote:
even were I bleeding to death

Given your lack of skin, is that an issue?

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-15-2003 02:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
I haven't had any health insurance in years, and since fees for uninsured patrons have tripled over the past couple of years, I can't afford to go to a doctor, even were I bleeding to death. Any reform would be fine with me.

Are you serious?
If so that is scary... kind of strange that the world richest country cant take care if this basic need...
Sometimes I dont understand the american way of thinking...

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-15-2003 02:06 AM:

ps. your link didnt work..

this one seems to be it:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/hcsidebyside.cfm

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Posted by Yorick on 05-15-2003 05:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Are you serious?
If so that is scary... kind of strange that the world richest country cant take care if this basic need...
Sometimes I dont understand the american way of thinking...

yeah, I'm serious.

I recently discovered an advantage to having a low income, tho. I need a tooth extracted and it's being handled for free by a nonprofit help group because I make so little.

Posted by dannoz on 05-15-2003 09:03 AM:

<rant>

As it stands, in America, if someone goes into an ER with a problem... they will be helped.

Secondly, from my POV I'd say trial lawyers have gone a long way towards make our society so litigious (read, "no one has a sense of personal responsibility'). My rational goes like this, EVERYONE sues at the drop of the hat (please pardon the generalization), therefore insurance companies (for profit organizations) have to raise their premiums so that their CEO's can still make their exorbitant salaries. This is passed on to both the physicians, some pay more than $250,000 / year in premiums and also to the patient.

Heck, an OB-gyn who delivers the deformed or mentally deficient baby of an underweight drug abusing mother who's been shooting up for 9 months against doctors recommendations WILL BE SUED FOR SOMETHING HE HAD NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR!! I see this in every aspect of life every day. People suing over hot coffee, mothers suing becuase McDonalds "made" their kids obeise, etc.

Folks... have some pride and personal responsibility.

Just one more thing I'd like to say is that after having some lengthy discussions with some folks from Canada... I hope we NEVER have socialized health care here. Apparently that was one of the things which led to them all leaving Canada. They told me it can take MONTHS or Years for something as simple as an MRI or a surgical procedure, and don't even think about elective or preventative medicine.

Sorry I'm stepping off the `ol soap box now

</rant>

Yeah, there may be some things I would change with America... but there is not even ONE other country in the world I would rather live in.

Posted by Yorick on 05-15-2003 02:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dannoz
As it stands, in America, if someone goes into an ER with a problem... they will be helped.

yes, but they'll also be expected to pay for it after, whether that's possible or not. For some of us it's not possible. that's what I have issue with.

Posted by ToolkiT on 05-16-2003 02:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dannoz

Yeah, there may be some things I would change with America... but there is not even ONE other country in the world I would rather live in.

Try Australia... you'd be surprized..

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-16-2003 12:04 PM:

I have been on my own (responsible for myself) for over 20 years and have never felt left out because I didn't have coverage. I think it's highly over rated myself. I don't believe poor coverage is better than none either.

My partner is Norweigian (as is his wife). They constantly are hearing from their relatives back home in Norway about how they (the relatives) have to come to the US for surgery/medical proceedures because the wait list is too long in Norway.

Before anyone assumes that I'm rich, or have never had to go to the hosipital, neither is true. Hospitals are very accomadating to you if you tell them the situation and let you pay as you can. I would rather pay for stuff I need than stuff I don't, which is what happens when the Governmant "foots" the bill. As a taxpayer that means I foot the bill.
Now before anyone calls me heartless (you don't care about others, etc.) I'd just like to say that I believe it isn't the Governments place to provide social services to it's people. That should remain in the private sector. Everytime the Governmant gets involved into social services it fails miserably.

I think it's impossible for bureaucrats to adminster social services in a way that is actually helpful and efficient.

But that's just my opinion.

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Posted by LaughingMan on 05-16-2003 03:20 PM:

quote:
I haven't had any health insurance in years, and since fees for uninsured patrons have tripled over the past couple of years, I can't afford to go to a doctor, even were I bleeding to death. Any reform would be fine with me.

This is from what I understand (thanks tooltip for correcting the link). With Gephardt's plan, if you are not eligible for medicaid and are unemployed, then you will not get covered (that's a lot of people). I like Howard Dean's plan because it doesn't depend on my employment status nor my medicaid eligibility.

quote:
They told me it can take MONTHS or Years for something as simple as an MRI or a surgical procedure, and don't even think about elective or preventative medicine.

This is something that Canadians and Norwegians (and other nations with similar dilemma) should reform. My point is your government have already taken a huge step by bringing its citizen into coverage. The United States is more than 50 years behind(Harry Truman proposed it in 1948).

quote:
I would rather pay for stuff I need than stuff I don't, which is what happens when the Governmant "foots" the bill. As a taxpayer that means I foot the bill.

I don't understand the issue with your bill. The proposed plans are all to be paid for by repealing part of(Dean) or all(Gephardt) of Bush's tax cut back in 2001. The repealing of the tax cut is only for people making over 200k per year.

quote:
Now before anyone calls me heartless (you don't care about others, etc.) I'd just like to say that I believe it isn't the Governments place to provide social services to it's people. That should remain in the private sector. Everytime the Governmant gets involved into social services it fails miserably.

Do you believe that education should be privatized as well? I believe healthcare, like education, is a moral responsibility of our governments. It's not a policy issue or fiscal matter. It's a moral responsibility.

__________________
joe

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-17-2003 12:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LaughingMan
I don't understand the issue with your bill. The proposed plans are all to be paid for by repealing part of(Dean) or all(Gephardt) of Bush's tax cut back in 2001. The repealing of the tax cut is only for people making over 200k per year.

I don't believe reditribution of wealth through taxation is ethical or fair. The repealing of the the tax cut is an interesting issue. Bush wants to take less out of the peoples pockets, the Democrats want to take more. I don't actually think that the issue is even about that, it's about fiscal responsibilty - which Congress (and the Governments bureaucracy) has little to none. If I pay a dollar into a health care plan and only 2 cents actually go towards patient care, why should I want to see "more" coverage?
They can't responsibly use they money they get now, why should they get more?

quote:
Originally posted by LaughingMan
Do you believe that education should be privatized as well? I believe healthcare, like education, is a moral responsibility of our governments. It's not a policy issue or fiscal matter. It's a moral responsibility.

Actually I don't think that's a bad idea (but then I homeschool my kids) Then we might actually see proper preformance from the schools and their adminstrations. That's why vouchers systems are so scary to the NEA and other teacher/school organization. Right now the States and Federal Governments are doing a completely sucky job at educating the American child. If they actually had to have children leave school with a good education, or lose their jobs, they would stop screwing around and do it.
When you have public school teachers say that they plan on homeschooling their kids because they want them to have a decent education, you know there are problems.
The government has a moral obligation to protect it's citizens from other nations and to do it's part with trade treaties. I don't think huge bureaucracies do well when it comes to health and education. In fact they waste enormous amounts of money (through fraud, inaction and plain stupiness) and accomplish little to nothing.

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Posted by yardie on 05-17-2003 09:27 PM:

Isn't it funny that the U.S is spending hundreds of billions of dollars on defending the sick, rather than spending the money to treat them?

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Are you serious?
If so that is scary... kind of strange that the world richest country cant take care if this basic need...
Sometimes I dont understand the american way of thinking...

__________________
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Posted by yardie on 05-17-2003 09:34 PM:

No party who advocate an American style medical system would get elected in Canada. If it was as bad as your acquaintances told you it is, do you think that this would be the case? The wait time for an elective surgery is a couple of weeks to a couple of months. I know thid from experience. Emergency surgery is handled as such. The bottom line is that it is free.

quote:
Originally posted by dannoz
<rant>

Just one more thing I'd like to say is that after having some lengthy discussions with some folks from Canada... I hope we NEVER have socialized health care here. Apparently that was one of the things which led to them all leaving Canada. They told me it can take MONTHS or Years for something as simple as an MRI or a surgical procedure, and don't even think about elective or preventative medicine.

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Posted by yardie on 05-17-2003 09:37 PM:

I am sure that you had would feel the same way if you live another first world country like say -- Sweden,

quote:
Originally posted by dannoz
<rant>

Yeah, there may be some things I would change with America... but there is not even ONE other country in the world I would rather live in.

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-18-2003 02:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I am sure that you had would feel the same way if you live another first world country like say -- Sweden,

Yikes, but you're much more likey to commit suicide there!

NATIONAL RATIOS BY AGE OF FEMALE/MALE SUICIDE RATES

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Posted by yardie on 05-18-2003 02:17 AM:

Year after year the Scandinavian countries and Canada usually get the top UN ranking for the best countries to live in. Nevertheless, the suicide rate is interesting... the burning question is why is it high?

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Yikes, but you're much more likey to commit suicide there!

NATIONAL RATIOS BY AGE OF FEMALE/MALE SUICIDE RATES

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Posted by dannoz on 05-18-2003 04:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
The bottom line is that it is free.

Hrm... "Free� I�m not positive of the exact percentage of the Canadian "dollar" earned that each individual gets to keep...

However, I do imagine that it is something more than... zero. If some portion (or majority) of your earned income is confiscated, perhaps a strong word, then NOTHING on which it is spent should be considered free.

Posted by dannoz on 05-18-2003 05:17 AM:

quote:
Are you serious?
If so that is scary... kind of strange that the world richest country cant take care if this basic need...
Sometimes I dont understand the american way of thinking...

Folks... sorry to have to weigh in on this issue also. ANYONE in the United States of America can take care of their own needs. Billions of dollars are poured in to social welfare programs. EVERYONE with the mental facility to do so (and those who don't also have programs setup to aid them) can find some benefit through the system which is in place. If you're "living on the street" it is either due to unfortunate innate disablility and someone, probably your parents, didn't care enough to take care of you.... or you simply refuse to recognize that the world does not OWE YOU A THING.

Furthermore, despite what you see on ER very few, if any be they citizens or OTHERWISE, fall through the cracks. A summer ago, I helped build a Immigrant worker Clinic (top of the line) which serves that population FREE OF CHARGE. As more anecdotal evidence, in GB someone suffering from a nonemergent cholecystitis has roughly a 6 month period of intense pain while waiting their place in line.

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Isn't it funny that the U.S is spending hundreds of billions of dollars on defending the sick, rather than spending the money to treat them?

See above statement.... the United States ALSO SPENDS billions on "treating" the sick. However, how many more billions to we spend on "treating" the sick of other nations who's governments are too corupt to do it themselves.

Some may see this as being a "bully" and forcing our (evil) western ways upon them. Yet the second we pause before handing out further billions we are condemned and villified in the court of world opinion.

Either your want our help or you don't... the double standard has to end.

(Since I've already gotten up on this pulpit... I may as well continue. On to our tax structure)

Currently our taxing system is setup to spare coorporations (who provide JOBS), spare those below an arbitrarily assigned poverty level, tax the middle class, and place (percentage wise) the largest burden on the upper class. Wether or not it truly works out according to this plan is obviously questionable - if you see my earlier statement about lawyers you'll probably figure out my point of view.

I believe we should move to a consumption tax. Repeal all income/property/inheritance/etc taxes and pass an across the board sales tax. Therefore, the MORE YOU SPEND.... the MORE YOU'RE TAXED! Simple. Save coorporations billions on tax preparation and more evenly distribute the tax burden.

[From the Room Mate]

Just look where everyone else in the world goes when they want quality healthcare. I personally know the surgeon who did Boris Yeltsin's bypass surgery.

[/From the Room Mate]

Posted by MIKE STH on 05-18-2003 02:53 PM:

There should be no "entitlements". It's very simple, you work and are compensated for your efforts. If you do not agree with the compensation, then find another job or get off your duff and learn new skills. I am not my brother's keeper, nor should I expect to be. I have my plate full bearing the responsibility of raising my family and contributing to society. One of these days, you that believe so much in entitlements should that the time to read ATLAS SHRUGGED 1957/Ann Rand. There are doers and those that whine, gnash the teeth and ride on coattails. You have a choice as to which group you belong. Can you even begin to imagine the wealth and prosperity that would be generated in this country if only 20% of the 'entitlement junkies' started to contribute to the GNP?

You have bootstraps for a reason.

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