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Posted by tialoc on 05-05-2002 05:13 AM:

Question What's to come of all this....?

Handspring is (I realize not for a while) getting out of the "organizer" biz, Palm is coming out with OS5 soon. I'm still using a HSD. I just bought a MemPlug (which I love). Where's all this heading? If HS is putting all it's resources in the Treo (a device w/o a SB slot), Is there going to be a nextgen device that supports the SB but takes advantage of the newer op system?

I'd like to upgrade to color one day but I understand battery life is not that great depending how often you use the device. I also like the idea of popping in fresh batteries when I need them and not relying on a recharge. What if I'm nowhere near my PC.

I'm not interested in letting Microsoft control my Palmtop as well as as my desktop so the pocket pc's are out for me.

This being my first post on VC I just wanted to put some thoughts out there.

-tialoc

Posted by jonecool on 05-05-2002 05:24 AM:

Legitimate Question

First of all, Welcome to VisorCentral! I hope you enjoy posting here and contribute frequently in the future.

The question you ask is one that many of us are asking too. Most of us either have a Visor, Used one in the past (and went somewhere else) or just like to see what Visor users's are saying (if only those people were Handspring).

I agree, I don't care to move to PPC. My PC has enough problems as it is, I don't want to bring those same problems with me wherever I go.

I believe the Springboard was (and still is) A super idea for the PDA. The TREO is a cute little device, but without expandability I'll likely NOT be carrying one myself (though, my wife is and loves it). I sure hope Handspring is planning a new device soon that is a non-TREO unit(or TREO Unit) and accepts a Springboard slot. If not, I'm afraid they will be in for a rude awakining when TREO sales don't pan out like they had hoped... Not to mention all those ticked off Springboard manufacturers that won't have a market to sell to!

Just my .02 worth.

__________________
My little girl is 3. She can already navigate my VisorPrism and knows where to tap! She has mastered TealPaint (including changing colors, tools, etc.), not to mention several games. In the Avatar, she is playing some tunes on the SoundsGood MP3 player. It's amazing how fast kids can learn if you give them a chance. Now if I could just keep her from making those long distance calls on my VisorPhone...

Posted by RedSoxPDAer on 05-17-2002 03:13 PM:

The Springboard is not a good business strategy. The same reason Nintendo got out of the catridge business for its console: its way too expensive! Not to mention that the Springboard is a designer's nightmare.

Look over at Palm & Sony and the designs they have been able to come up with by using more advanced expansion slots such as the Compact Flash and MemoryStick. A 16MB MemPlug costs $60 and I just picked up a 128MB Sony MemoryStick (about the size of a stick of gum) for $59. Can you see the disadvantage HS has put itself in?

The Springboard was a great idea a few years ago, but its the 8Track of the industry now. HS would be wise to move to either CF, MMC, or MemoryStick. And for those who purchased SB modules, join the ranks of BetaMax, 8Track, NeoGeo, and owners.

So if HS moves to CF, are you saying you would not buy another HS product? Why? Any other device you move to will use CF or MMC anyway so what is the difference besides personal animosity to HS?

Posted by Toby on 05-17-2002 04:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RedSoxPDAer
The Springboard is not a good business strategy.
Only in retrospect.
quote:
The same reason Nintendo got out of the catridge business for its console: its way too expensive!
Funny. Conventional outlook is that most console manufacturers sell the hardware at cost or even a loss because the software is where the money is (give away the razor, sell the blades).
quote:
Not to mention that the Springboard is a designer's nightmare.
How so? It's the only technology that allowed fully enclosed solutions. All of the other expansion tech requires warts on any module of significant functionality.
quote:
Look over at Palm & Sony and the designs they have been able to come up with by using more advanced expansion slots such as the Compact Flash and MemoryStick.
I think you mean Secure Digital. Palm doesn't use CF (although I wish they would).
quote:
A 16MB MemPlug costs $60 and I just picked up a 128MB Sony MemoryStick (about the size of a stick of gum) for $59.
What exactly is a '16MB MemPlug'? The MemPlug is the adapter. You add whatever size card you want. In most cases, people are buying them because they already have the expansion (I bought a CF one because I already had CF cards for my camera).
quote:
Can you see the disadvantage HS has put itself in?
No, I see how they squandered their inherent advantage.
quote:
The Springboard was a great idea a few years ago, but its the 8Track of the industry now. HS would be wise to move to either CF, MMC, or MemoryStick. And for those who purchased SB modules, join the ranks of BetaMax, 8Track, NeoGeo, and owners.
Who created BetaMax, and why wasn't it successful? How many people other than Sony use memory stick in their devices?
quote:
So if HS moves to CF, are you saying you would not buy another HS product?
I wish they would move to CF. It'll never happen, though.
quote:
Why? Any other device you move to will use CF or MMC anyway so what is the difference besides personal animosity to HS?
If Handspring was going to switch to CF and support it like Handera, I think they'd have a differentiator that would make them competitive again. They would have a standard expansion slot with a real availability of peripherals and memory options. They'd also have the existing retail channels which Handera doesn't. Unfortunately, I doubt if they'll do it. They're too focused on their 'communicator' line to do expandable 'organizers' anymore.

Posted by RedSoxPDAer on 05-17-2002 06:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
[B]Funny. Conventional outlook is that most console manufacturers sell the hardware at cost or even a loss because the software is where the money is (give away the razor, sell the blades).

Nintendo abandoned the cartridge format because developers & publishers started jumping ship because it was too expensive to produce games for the system, reducing margins.

quote:
How so? It's the only technology that allowed fully enclosed solutions. All of the other expansion tech requires warts on any module of significant functionality.

CF or MMC ad-ons are just as functional as Springboard slots and take up far less space in the overall design of the handheld.

quote:
I think you mean Secure Digital. Palm doesn't use CF (although I wish they would).

Your correct, I misspoke, although SD is a pretty good technology as well. Actually, HS is rumored to be moving towards SD. (see below)

quote:
What exactly is a '16MB MemPlug'? The MemPlug is the adapter. You add whatever size card you want. In most cases, people are buying them because they already have the expansion (I bought a CF one because I already had CF cards for my camera).

Excuse me, I meant the 16MB Backup module which sells for $59.99 at Handspring.com. Sony sells twice the storage in its smaller and thinner MemoryStick for about the same price.

quote:
Who created BetaMax, and why wasn't it successful? How many people other than Sony use memory stick in their devices?

Sony created the Betamax and I would imagine learned a lot from that negative experience. Sony does not need to sell its proprietery storage technology to other PDA or Electronics manufacturers. Why? Because Sony is a leader in the sales of most digital cameras, video cameras, cd players, walkmans, etc etc etc. Sony can incorporate its MemoryStick technology into all of these devices if it wanted to. Where can I find a camera that accepts Springboards storage cards? Handspring does not have the massive marketshare in the electronics industry as Sony does. Sony can buck the market trend of CF and MMC and SD cards because it has the marketshare to push its own technology, which is a great one. And it's a good business decision. I have a Clie, and I was considering purchasing a Canon A20 Powershot digital camera. Now, I've decided to purchase a Sony Cybershot camera because all I need to do is swap the MemoryStick from my Sony camera into my Clie and view the images. This is what Sony is seeking to accomplish: to spark sales within all of its products lines.

quote:
If Handspring was going to switch to CF and support it like Handera, I think they'd have a differentiator that would make them competitive again. They would have a standard expansion slot with a real availability of peripherals and memory options. They'd also have the existing retail channels which Handera doesn't. Unfortunately, I doubt if they'll do it. They're too focused on their 'communicator' line to do expandable 'organizers' anymore.

Handspring is all but sure to soon be releasing the Treo 90, which will offer a color screen, SD slot, thumbboard, and NO WIRELESS. It may not be a CF slot, but at least Handspring is showing signs that the Springboard is on its wasy out. Besides, Palm Inc. uses the SD and it has had mild success with it.

Posted by Toby on 05-17-2002 07:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RedSoxPDAer
[...] CF or MMC ad-ons are just as functional as Springboard slots and take up far less space in the overall design of the handheld.
I think you missed my point. They don't reduce the overall space _of_ the handheld, though when you have a module of any significant functionality. They also don't tend to look very stable unless the add-on is a sled.
quote:
Your correct, I misspoke, although SD is a pretty good technology as well. Actually, HS is rumored to be moving towards SD. (see below)
If they're only using it for memory, they're signing their death warrant.
quote:
Excuse me, I meant the 16MB Backup module which sells for $59.99 at Handspring.com. Sony sells twice the storage in its smaller and thinner MemoryStick for about the same price.
And one can get [a|several] MemPlug(s) which allows you to use any of the available memory technologies.
quote:
Sony created the Betamax and I would imagine learned a lot from that negative experience.
Not really. It still made the Memory Stick.
quote:
Sony does not need to sell its proprietery storage technology to other PDA or Electronics manufacturers. Why? Because Sony is a leader in the sales of most digital cameras, video cameras, cd players, walkmans, etc etc etc. Sony can incorporate its MemoryStick technology into all of these devices if it wanted to.
Sure, but unless one has those Sony things, there really isn't much advantage to it. Trust me, I understand Sony's idea here. I'm just saying that it's not necessarily for people who already aren't on the Sony bandwagon.
quote:
Where can I find a camera that accepts Springboards storage cards?
Who cares? I've got a camera that supports CF. Where can I find a Clie that supports CF? (That's rhetorical.) A Visor could support it fine with a Memplug. Same with an SD, MMC, SM _or_ MS camera. The Visor's differentiator was flexibility and price. This new device has neither.
quote:
Handspring does not have the massive marketshare in the electronics industry as Sony does.
Nope, but it's got more marketshare where it counts in this case: the PDA space. PDA accessory manufacturers couldn't care less about how many cameras Sony sells if they're making a PDA case. They care about how many PDA cases they can sell. By the way, how many non-Sony expansion options exist for the Clies? Sony can't keep a product line on the market long enough to build support for it, it seems.
quote:
Sony can buck the market trend of CF and MMC and SD cards because it has the marketshare to push its own technology, which is a great one.
Only if one already has investment in that space or none.
quote:
And it's a good business decision.
Sure, and so is selling small runs of soon-to-be-obsolete devices.
quote:
I have a Clie, and I was considering purchasing a Canon A20 Powershot digital camera. Now, I've decided to purchase a Sony Cybershot camera because all I need to do is swap the MemoryStick from my Sony camera into my Clie and view the images. This is what Sony is seeking to accomplish: to spark sales within all of its products lines.
Yes, I realize that. I'm just not buying into it at the moment.
quote:
Handspring is all but sure to soon be releasing the Treo 90, which will offer a color screen, SD slot, thumbboard, and NO WIRELESS. It may not be a CF slot, but at least Handspring is showing signs that the Springboard is on its wasy out. Besides, Palm Inc. uses the SD and it has had mild success with it.
Where are the non-Palm expansion options for it?

Posted by ubik on 05-18-2002 05:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Who created BetaMax, and why wasn't it successful? How many people other than Sony use memory stick in their devices?[



Wow, the damned Beta argument again!

I have said it a million, times, so what is one more time?

Do you realive that BetaCam SP/SX and DigiBeta are still THE industry standard for professional video? Beta and ED Beta might not have taken off in the consumer space, but to this day Sony is still doing extremely well with $30,000+ Professional Beta decks and $40,000+ Beta camcorders. S-VHS on the other hand never managed to gain any real market acceptance in either the professional or consumer space, and now with DV and DVD taking off, all those VHS manufacturers are having to blow out their products at bargin-basement prices to stay afloat.

While it might sound like a great argument to compair Beta to the 8-track, the fact is that no single VHS manufacturer has made anywhere near the ammount of money off of VHS, as Sony has, and still is, off of the Beta line of products.

By the same token, Memory Stick is being used for a lot more than just PDA storage. There is no other form of memory on which I can keep PDA data, store images from a digital still camera, store the configuration files and color correction settings for an HD camera, store music for a walkman, use for the media in a digital frame, print to a video printer, and dump still images for color checks from a professional DVCam.

Even if Memory Stick completely fails in the consumer market, there will still be media around for ten years, if for nothing else, for storing HD camera settings.

It is quite true that you aren't likely to find non-Sony products supporting MS, but then in some markets, there aren't that many products that aren't Sony to begin with.

__________________
The goal is to overcome the deliberate nature of the process.

Posted by Madkins007 on 05-19-2002 12:14 AM:

Sony's Beta WAS the superior technology- anything the clunky VHS could do, Beta did better. Standard Beta was better than SuperVHS, and the newer BetaMax rose the bar again. The machines were competetively priced- so why did Beta fail in the consumer arena?

One reason has GOT to be the lack of licensing- Sony only allowed Sears to stick their label on the devices, so they had a comparatively small share of the shelf space- dozens of VHS models compared to a few Beta ones.

This is one of the things that appears to have contributed to Apple's failure to thrive in the desktop world several years ago when they chose to not license Apples or early Macs.

It APPEARS that holding one's license too tightly causes problems- Palm's selling its license seems to have helped them.

I sort of wonder, though, about the relatively proprietary Memory Stick. Is this going to be another case of holding the license too tightly?

__________________
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!

Posted by harrisupstate on 05-19-2002 02:55 AM:

I had heard that the main reason Betamax didn't succeed was that Sony either disallowed or discouraged the use of it for porno movies. And we all know how these movies really drove the initial sales of VCRs, so... that could easily explain the huge early proliferation of VHS devices among the consumer population.

Posted by mojo_yugen on 05-20-2002 02:57 PM:

Springboard, I knew you well.

I don't think anyone should be holding their breath for a new device that accepts Springboard modules. OK, maybe some minor upgrade, but nothing more than that. When Handspring first started producing Visors they talked a lot about licening the Springboard technology to other companies. Well guess how well that went over. I think that their business plan involved getting a significant amount of money off those licening fees. Since that fell through, why keep beating a dead horse? Handspring has now put it's chips on the Treo, they'll keep manufacturing Visors as long as they make some money off them, they need the money for R&D for the Treo.

Posted by Madkins007 on 05-20-2002 03:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by harrisupstate
I had heard that the main reason Betamax didn't succeed was that Sony either disallowed or discouraged the use of it for porno movies. And we all know how these movies really drove the initial sales of VCRs, so... that could easily explain the huge early proliferation of VHS devices among the consumer population.


I have not heard this idea before, but I do not recall that being a problem when we had a Beta- not that we rented or watched porn (I know no one will believe that, but it is true!), just that I do not recall any discussions about that topic from the machine vendors or the tape rental places.

One of the places we rented (this was before Hollywood, Blockbuster, or the other big chains) had TONS of Beta, and the proprieter really liked that technology so we often discussed why VHS was outselling the Beta- and even though I know he had a 'back room' of adult tapes, I do not recall that reason ever coming up.

__________________
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!

Posted by Toby on 05-20-2002 04:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ubik
Wow, the damned Beta argument again!
It should be noted that I'm not the one who brought up Betamax.
quote:
I have said it a million, times, so what is one more time?
Sure.
quote:
Do you realive that BetaCam SP/SX and DigiBeta are still THE industry standard for professional video?
Yes, and that's wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
quote:
Beta and ED Beta might not have taken off in the consumer space, but to this day Sony is still doing extremely well with $30,000+ Professional Beta decks and $40,000+ Beta camcorders.
Wonderful, we're talking about the consumer space at the moment, though.
quote:
S-VHS on the other hand never managed to gain any real market acceptance in either the professional or consumer space, and now with DV and DVD taking off, all those VHS manufacturers are having to blow out their products at bargin-basement prices to stay afloat.
OK, so you think he should have compared Springboard to S-VHS instead, then?
quote:
While it might sound like a great argument to compair Beta to the 8-track,
First of all, he didn't specifically compare Beta to the 8 Track. He compared both of them (and NeoGeo) to the Springboard and its acceptance in the consumer space.
quote:
the fact is that no single VHS manufacturer has made anywhere near the ammount of money off of VHS, as Sony has, and still is, off of the Beta line of products.
And it's quite possible that no one will make more than certain Springboard manufacturers in certain niche markets (just like Sony is with commercial Beta). That's not what was being discussed though. From a general consumer standpoint, both BetaMax and Springboard are dead. I was just curious as to the original poster's understanding and reasoning behind the comparison.
quote:
By the same token, Memory Stick is being used for a lot more than just PDA storage.
Yes, it is, but we're talking about the PDA space.
quote:
There is no other form of memory on which I can keep PDA data, store images from a digital still camera, store the configuration files and color correction settings for an HD camera, store music for a walkman, use for the media in a digital frame, print to a video printer, and dump still images for color checks from a professional DVCam.
Wonderful, but the discussion at hand dealt with standards within the PDA space. As it is, there is only one medium that would allow one far more flexibility with such various devices, and it's the Springboard which could interface with that same memory stick, and then the card from your buddy's CF Kodak or Canon camera and the SM card from your sister's Olympus and then the SD from your coworker's Panasonic
quote:
Even if Memory Stick completely fails in the consumer market, there will still be media around for ten years, if for nothing else, for storing HD camera settings.
And as I said, that's only relevant if one already has an investment in Sony's products.
quote:
It is quite true that you aren't likely to find non-Sony products supporting MS, but then in some markets, there aren't that many products that aren't Sony to begin with.
But in the _PDA_space_, there are, and arguing that Springboard is the 8 Track or Betamax when compared to the Memory Stick (in the PDA space, which is the only way that the argument makes any sense) is rather shaky.

Posted by Toby on 05-20-2002 04:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Madkins007
[...] One reason has GOT to be the lack of licensing- Sony only allowed Sears to stick their label on the devices, so they had a comparatively small share of the shelf space- dozens of VHS models compared to a few Beta ones.
No, it wasn't for lack of trying. Sony _wanted_ to license Beta. The problem was that JVC and Panasonic (whom they first approached) already were working on VHS, and they weren't going to pay their competitor for a format which they considered lesser than that which they were already working on. I'm pretty sure this was already discussed in another thread long ago, but I can't find it. The old Sony refusal to license Betamax is an urban legend.
quote:
This is one of the things that appears to have contributed to Apple's failure to thrive in the desktop world several years ago when they chose to not license Apples or early Macs.
Apple is a whole other set of issues.
quote:
It APPEARS that holding one's license too tightly causes problems- Palm's selling its license seems to have helped them.
How so? It has definitely cost Palm its marketshare and has caused it to engage in a wounding price war with the number two (Handspring). Handspring is unlikely to be able to stop the bleeding. The jury is still out on Palm itself.
quote:
I sort of wonder, though, about the relatively proprietary Memory Stick. Is this going to be another case of holding the license too tightly?
No, but it'll probably be a case of people choosing more widely available standards over a more closed format. Sony's CF sled in Japan seems to be a bow to that direction. Anybody want to start a pool on when Sony will cave and include either SD or CF [in addition to|instead of] MS just like they did with VHS?

Posted by ubik on 05-20-2002 08:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
It should be noted that I'm not the one who brought up Betamax.


I was not trying to pin the Beta argument on anyone in particular. I was simply commenting on the use of the Beta argument in general


quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Yes, and that's wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


Not really (more below)

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Wonderful, we're talking about the consumer space at the moment, though.


See, I thought that we were talking about the survivability of a format in the real world, not arbitrarily divided abstract market spaces.


quote:
Originally posted by Toby
OK, so you think he should have compared Springboard to S-VHS instead, then?


No, my entire point is that it is a mistake to try and view this in any kind of Beta vs. VHS context. The Beta vs. VHS myth has become kind of a rallying call for people who feel that everything should be based on open standards, and it is a truly false analogy. People have this vague, but powerful, memory of Beta being a Sony proprietary format that failed miserably due to the fact that it was proprietary. The fact is that VHS was a proprietary format as well. However, JVC wanted half as much for their licensing fees as Sony did, so VHS won in the consumer market where the largest concern at that time was which unit had the lowest price.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Wonderful, but the discussion at hand dealt with standards within the PDA space. As it is, there is only one medium that would allow one far more flexibility with such various devices, and it's the Springboard which could interface with that same memory stick, and then the card from your buddy's CF Kodak or Canon camera and the SM card from your sister's Olympus and then the SD from your coworker's Panasonic


There is no argument that Springboard is the most flexible of the formats. But SB was abandoned by its parent leaving it an orphaned technology barely two years into its development. The reason SB failed is because it was aborted along with the Visor line of products.

However, the real point is that none of this Beta/8track/Neo Geo stuff is a really valid as it applies to the "PDA space." This is really more of a fountain pen vs. ballpoint vs. felt tip kind of argument. You see, if they stop putting out new tapes for your Beta, or 8track, then the machine that plays those tapes is no longer of any real use. By the same token, if they stop putting out new games for your Neo Geo, then it is also of no real use. However, if they stop coming out with new expansions for whatever your particular PDA expansion slot, then you still have a fully functional PDA.

All of these arguments would all be fine if people were really that concerned about expansion technology, however they aren't. To most people that slot is just a place where you keep extra memory. Even those who have a wonderful expansion technology like Springboard, typically just use it to stick in a memplug, and then use the storage slot type they personally prefer.

No handheld is going to "win" or "lose" the PDA market based on what kind of expansion slot the device has. It is that simple. People are buying PDAs based on a different set of personal preferences, and then they will go out and buy whatever type of memory they need to in order to fill their expansion slot.


quote:
Originally posted by Toby
And as I said, that's only relevant if one already has an investment in Sony's products.


Fine, however there are thousands of companies worldwide that HAVE already invested MILLIONS of dollars in Sony's products. That means that there is no concern that Sony is one day going to unexpectedly orphan MemoryStick in a conference call to investors. That is a major differentiation between MS and Springboard.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
But in the _PDA_space_, there are, and arguing that Springboard is the 8 Track or Betamax when compared to the Memory Stick (in the PDA space, which is the only way that the argument makes any sense) is rather shaky.


I am not trying to say that any of these technologies are the Beta! In fact, I am trying to point out that even Beta wasn't really the Beta people think of. My whole point has been that this Beta vs. VHS thing is an oversimplified false dichotomy massaged over the years to make a great sounding argument for one particular point of view, and is not a realistic way to view a tech market.

__________________
The goal is to overcome the deliberate nature of the process.

Posted by ganoe on 05-20-2002 09:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
No, it wasn't for lack of trying. Sony _wanted_ to license Beta. The problem was that JVC and Panasonic (whom they first approached) already were working on VHS, and they weren't going to pay their competitor for a format which they considered lesser than that which they were already working on. I'm pretty sure this was already discussed in another thread long ago, but I can't find it. The old Sony refusal to license Betamax is an urban legend.


Whoa! This is getting off topic on my part, but...

I've usually found reasonable accuracy in the stuff on that urban legends website, but I'm going to have to raise a red flag on this one. I have never read anything other than the above article claiming that, "Technologically, the two formats were each other's equal" or "qualitative differences between the two formats were less than the differences between any two samples from the same manufacturer."

Beta was performance/quality-wise superior to VHS every step of the way (outside of recording time), period. The urban legends article unfortunately seems to dwell on its own inaccuracy instead of discussing licensing terms and manufacturing costs to build the components which were the major issues. I'd steer clear of using that article as the basis of any statements. A more accurate, though Sony biased, reading can be found here:
http://www.sony.co.jp/en/Fun/SH/1-14/h1.html

Posted by Toby on 05-20-2002 09:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ubik
I was not trying to pin the Beta argument on anyone in particular. I was simply commenting on the use of the Beta argument in general
Then perhaps you should be more careful what you quote before going off on a rant?
quote:
See, I thought that we were talking about the survivability of a format in the real world, not arbitrarily divided abstract market spaces.
No, the original poster was saying basically that Springboard was going to become the Beta of the PDA world when compared to 'standards' like SD, CF, or MS.
quote:
No, my entire point is that it is a mistake to try and view this in any kind of Beta vs. VHS context.
And my point was that you're directing that at the wrong person if that's your point.
quote:
The Beta vs. VHS myth has become kind of a rallying call for people who feel that everything should be based on open standards, and it is a truly false analogy. People have this vague, but powerful, memory of Beta being a Sony proprietary format that failed miserably due to the fact that it was proprietary.
Gee I could have sworn that I posted a link which clearly illustrated that I most certainly did not think that.
quote:
The fact is that VHS was a proprietary format as well. However, JVC wanted half as much for their licensing fees as Sony did, so VHS won in the consumer market where the largest concern at that time was which unit had the lowest price.
If you'll go to the link which I posted, you'll see that price was also not the reason why Beta didn't succeed. Fact is that JVC was not the only player. Panasonic (Matsu****a) was also in the game. Ironic that Panasonic is also apparently picking the leading horse with SD also.
quote:
There is no argument that Springboard is the most flexible of the formats. But SB was abandoned by its parent leaving it an orphaned technology barely two years into its development. The reason SB failed is because it was aborted along with the Visor line of products.
Actually, it hasn't totally been abandoned yet. There's still time for Handspring to change its mind (although I don't see it happening). However, there will likely still be niche markets for Springboard in the PDA space (there's a line of Auto diagnostics that comes to mind) for a few years at least.
quote:
However, the real point is that none of this Beta/8track/Neo Geo stuff is a really valid as it applies to the "PDA space."
Why not? If one can accurately construct the analogy, it's quite valid.
quote:
This is really more of a fountain pen vs. ballpoint vs. felt tip kind of argument. You see, if they stop putting out new tapes for your Beta, or 8track, then the machine that plays those tapes is no longer of any real use.
Well, its useful life will certainly be limited, but considering that there are still Palm Pilots in use, 'real use' is an elusive term.
quote:
By the same token, if they stop putting out new games for your Neo Geo, then it is also of no real use. However, if they stop coming out with new expansions for whatever your particular PDA expansion slot, then you still have a fully functional PDA.
And I still have a fully functional 8 Track (along with media), so...?
quote:
All of these arguments would all be fine if people were really that concerned about expansion technology, however they aren't.
If the people involved in the conversation are concerned about expansion, how can it not be valid? No, Sony isn't going to change its direction because of me, but I'm not going to change my expectations or usage because of Sony's assumptions either.
quote:
To most people that slot is just a place where you keep extra memory.
Source?
quote:
Even those who have a wonderful expansion technology like Springboard, typically just use it to stick in a memplug, and then use the storage slot type they personally prefer.
Source?
quote:
No handheld is going to "win" or "lose" the PDA market based on what kind of expansion slot the device has. It is that simple. People are buying PDAs based on a different set of personal preferences, and then they will go out and buy whatever type of memory they need to in order to fill their expansion slot.
That's the problem with anecdotal evidence. Our anecdotal experiences differ _drastically_. I tend to see the opposite extremes. Either people couldn't care less about expansion and likely won't use the thing beyond its PIM functionality (I got this free card with my Palm, do you want it?), or they're looking for a specific functionality which may only be available via one option.
quote:
Fine, however there are thousands of companies worldwide that HAVE already invested MILLIONS of dollars in Sony's products.
And what exactly is the difference when it comes to PDAs?
quote:
That means that there is no concern that Sony is one day going to unexpectedly orphan MemoryStick in a conference call to investors.
Perhaps not on a grander scale, but there is most certainly the possibility that they'll orphan all sorts of products within the PDA space.
quote:
That is a major differentiation between MS and Springboard.
Ahh, but not a major differentiation between the Visor and Clie lines. Sony could just as quickly doom their users to having no Stowaways or other such accessories by discontinuing a line.
quote:
I am not trying to say that any of these technologies are the Beta!
What a coincidence. Neither was I. RedSoxPDAer was though.
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In fact, I am trying to point out that even Beta wasn't really the Beta people think of.
Yes, and if you'll notice, I gave you some real ammunition for that very point.
quote:
My whole point has been that this Beta vs. VHS thing is an oversimplified false dichotomy massaged over the years to make a great sounding argument for one particular point of view, and is not a realistic way to view a tech market.
Lemme guess, you didn't bother clicking the link I had in my post.

Posted by Toby on 05-20-2002 09:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
[...] Panasonic (Matsu****a) [...]
Dear Lord, please deliver us from clueless censorship software... LOL

Posted by Toby on 05-20-2002 10:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ganoe
[...] I've usually found reasonable accuracy in the stuff on that urban legends website, but I'm going to have to raise a red flag on this one. I have never read anything other than the above article claiming that, "Technologically, the two formats were each other's equal" or "qualitative differences between the two formats were less than the differences between any two samples from the same manufacturer."
From that URL...
"Sony took a closer look at the VHS format and everyone was aghast. The technology and know-how that Sony had willingly disclosed when it proposed the unification of the U and Beta formats was incorporated in the VHS format. Although Sony had freely given the two companies access to its basic, patented technology, it was impossible for Sony to hide its shock and surprise.

Even though Sony's Beta format and JVC's VHS format were technologically similar, the cassette sizes were different."
Any 'clearly superior' qualitative judgements, I'd have to take with a grain of salt.
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Beta was performance/quality-wise superior to VHS every step of the way (outside of recording time), period.
In a market where recording time matters, though, that's nothing to sneeze at.
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The urban legends article unfortunately seems to dwell on its own inaccuracy instead of discussing licensing terms and manufacturing costs to build the components which were the major issues.
That's not their purpose. Their purpose is to refute the legends, not to conduct business analysis.
quote:
I'd steer clear of using that article as the basis of any statements. A more accurate, though Sony biased, reading can be found here:
http://www.sony.co.jp/en/Fun/SH/1-14/h1.html
And the Sony bias is enough to take it with a big grain of salt. This reminds me of a person at the office who refuses to get a DVD player since HD Video is going to be 'so much better'. Beta was subjectively better in many respects than VHS, but ultimately, if it isn't 'better enough' to make a difference to the average Joe, then that's all she wrote. Much like Springboard was technically 'better' than CF/SD/MS, but CF or SD will likely win in the end since they're good enough for the average Joe not to care about the 'betterness'.

Posted by dick-richardson on 05-21-2002 12:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
...Much like Springboard was technically 'better' than CF/SD/MS, but CF or SD will likely win in the end since they're good enough for the average Joe not to care about the 'betterness'.

I'd take an exception to this statement. CF/SD will likely win because HS decided the best things for themselves in the pda market were evergreen needles stuck in their @$$ and urine dribbling down their thighs.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Rogocop on 05-21-2002 01:52 AM:

I've invested in several modules and I like them, although I've never quite figured out how to use the memplug with smartmedia card. The visor kinda reminds me of those toys out a few (several?) years ago, the Transformers? Remember those, you moved arms and legs and stuff and they were trucks and tanks etc. Well anyway, they were a fad or faze and I don't think are around much anymore. Anyway, I view the visor similarly, yet hope it won't soon go the same route. I would like to see a smaller color visor along the lines of the edge before they go the way of the dinosaur, just to see some of the modules I have work in color! The prism is a bit bulky for me to lug around.

I like the Sony idea of using the same card in a lot of devices, although I don't own Sony equip so won't go that route. How long before you guys think support will dry up for visor modules? I see the soundsgood is already out of production.

BTW, does Handspring have a 30 day price guarantee? I replaced my broken platinum 2 weeks ago with a new edge direct from Handspring and now the price is down another $30. Thanks!
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