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-- SONY CLIE VS. VISOR DX (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=8296)
Posted by John Nowak on 09-29-2000 04:22 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by kalaban
Foo Fighter:
Is it me, or do you stir emotions in most threads you post in? 
Betcha in two months he'll be screaming the Clie is a piece of garbage and anyone who buys one is an idiot.
Posted by Gameboy70 on 09-29-2000 04:35 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by MIKE STH
I am glad you found a unit that pleased you, but the Clie DID feel cheezy to me and I did not enjoy it in the hand. It is much thinner(good) but the plastic/silver rails DON'T appeal to me and it did feel cheap ~ TO ME
I agree 100%. I really like the design of much of the Cli�, but I hate the rails, and unfortunately, they're too prominent to be ignored. Because of those rails, I can't agree that the style and design are superior to the Vx -- obviously an opinion, not a fact. The Vx is smaller, lighter, more elegant looking and, to me, feel more natural in my hand. And the main reason I don't like the jog dial is that I'm left handed. It's probably a much different experience when scrolling with your index finger, but it's an uncomfortable strech for the thumb.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but doesn't the Cli� have 8MB on board, with the other 8MB coming from the Memory Stick? Frankly, I'm the wrong audience for being seduced by additional memory, since I haven't even used 1/4 of my Visor's memory after a year.
As far as Sony adding MP3 capability to a later model, I wouldn't bet the farm on that. As a content provider as well as a manufacturer, Sony is, to put it generously, ambivalent about MP3. Right now they're trying to block one of their bands, The Offspring, from releasing their new album in MP3 on the net before the CD is released. Sony executives have scored some notoriety lately for the facist lengths they're willing to go to stop the flow of MP3: "We will develop technology that transcends the individual user. We will firewall Napster at source -- we will block it at your cable company, we will block it at your phone company, we will block it at your [Internet-service provider]. We will firewall it at your PC," says Sony VP Steve Heckler. I imagine they'll put some codec in the second generation Cli�, but I doubt it'll be MP3.
Posted by foo fighter on 09-29-2000 05:17 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by kalaban
Foo Fighter:
Is it me, or do you stir emotions in most threads you post in?
Guilty as charged! I just love stirring the pot, in fact I keep a giant wooden spoon by my side just for that purpose. 
quote:
I would much rather spend the same dollar for a color Visor (Prism) than a grayscale Clie.
Color makes a huge difference, but I would never spend $450 for a color Palm OS based device. Your just throwing your money away. The resolution is simply too low. As I've said before, its like sticking your face right up to your monitor and staring at each individual pixel. If color is really something you lust for, your much better off with an iPAQ. Unlike the Palm IIIc and the Prism, you can use the iPAQ (has a reflective TFT display) both indoors and outdoors
And if the Prism doesn't have built-in MP3 playback capabilities its as good as dead. Especially when you take into account that you can buy an HP Jornada for $400 or an iPAQ for $460 online. Think about it, who the hell is going to spend $450 for a Prism, then turn around and spend nearly $300 for an MP3 add-on module? Sorry guys, it ain't gonna happen. Consumers aren't THAT stupid. One of the reasons for the iPAQ's success lies in its features. Obviously Palm and HS have underestimated the publics acceptance of these devices. Unless Handspring builds some compelling features into this device it will become roadkill on the information super highway. Contrary to what Palm may claim, the primary reason why the IIIc isn't selling well is because the low-res display look awful! Since the Visor will also operate at the same 160x160 pixel depth I don't see how it will fare any better. The frightening solution that Palm and its partners seem to have come up with is to.....shrink the screen!!! This is a suicidal move! They did it to the Palm M100, Sony did it to the Clie (although I like the unit, the display is too small) and I suspect Handspring will do it to the Prism to overcome the low resolution issue. Needless to say, the entire Palm economy will collectively shooting themselves in the foot. People don't want tiny screens, they want smaller devices that still have larger easy to read displays. It's a paradox. Even the latest market data shows that Microsoft's market share is very slowly increasing (up from 5%). Their share would be growing faster if it weren't for the limited availability of all Pocket PC devices. But even still I wouldn't think Microsoft's take of the handheld market will go beyond 15-25% If it does I'll be surprised.
Gameboy:
quote:
I thought you sold your iPaq because it didn't support the Mac you were planning to get. Now you've got a Palm OS product with no Mac support?
Long story short....I'm not going with a Mac. I might post something in the Off Topic area about my exploits on a Mac, but suffice to say...you can have it, thank you very much. Actually, I am going back to an iPAQ. My buddy at Circuit City said he may have one for me by the end of the week. I needed an interim device to hold me over, so I chose the Clie. When the iPAQ comes in I will simply return the Clie as defective (which this one is) and grab the iPAQ. I
MIKE STH:
quote:
If you really want to get nit-picky, the RX-7 was a MAZDA and the Lexus SUV is a LX 470 or RX 300...
Oops...sorry. Your absolutely right. I was referring to the RX 300 not the RX 7. Personally, I hate these bar code like naming schemes. What ever happened simple names like; Mazda Miata, Ford Explorer, Honda Prelude? Now its; RX X 125B, R21 ZxT. Damn imports!
Yes, to each his own. You think the Clie feels cheesy and that's fine. I agree that it doesn't have the metal feel of the Palm V, but it still feels VERY solid. There is not perceptible flex or creaking associated with the Visor.
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Posted by ejacobs on 09-29-2000 06:05 PM:
Im joining this post kindof late, but i have something to add about the VDX getting 2/5 from ZDnet and the CLIE getting 3/5. I havent seen the review of the CLIE, but I have seen a review of the VDX at ZDnet, and it was in an article about wireless connectivity. They gave it a low score because it had very little wireless upgradability at the time. i think they gave ALL palm os based units 2/5 exept for the Palm 7, which got a higher score. very little was focused on the other features of the VDX. Maybe your talking about a different review of the VDX, but if the wireless article is what your talking about, its not a very fair comparison
Posted by MIKE STH on 09-29-2000 07:49 PM:
FOO- Dang, my earlier (much earlier in the am) post bothered me all morning. I regret that I took that tone and an thankful you didn't jump on it and continue. Guess I just got miffed at being told....In any case, you have always brought up valid points while stirring the pot and I, for one have enjoyed the insite you have provided...
Your quote "People don't want tiny screens, they want smaller devices that still have larger easy to read displays" hit the nail on the head. I see no reason why the whole face of the device can't be the active screen. Would take some engineering, but would be a huge step foreward. EX: what if the whole PDA device were the depth of the Clie and the face was the size of the VDX screen and it was ALL screen...you could put it to sleep and if you wanted *colors*(case) you could choose between default colors that were on the screen itself...havn't figured a way around the battery drain, but solar or ambiant light chargers could drive the "sleeping" unit, just require a flat battery sheet(rechargeable) with emergency backup regular AAA attachable pack for normal operation...*sigh* guess I'm just wishful thinking, but you can bet that these units will get smaller AND easier to read or they will not dominate the market and successfully take on the laptops.
As for cars ~"Oops...sorry. Your absolutely right. I was referring to the RX 300 not the RX 7. Personally, I hate these bar code like naming schemes. What ever happened simple names like; Mazda Miata, Ford Explorer, Honda Prelude? Now its; RX X 125B, R21 ZxT. Damn imports!" AGAIN we agree! Let me throw in NORMAL tire sizes like 50's and 60's and what the heck is up with metric engine displacement? I want to drive a 454 not a 5.4"
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Posted by kalaban on 09-29-2000 08:41 PM:
Foo Fighter:
I read your response and it peaked my interest in the IPAQ.
I went to The Gadgeteer and read her review and one by ZDNET and it is IMPRESSSSSIVE! You're absolutley right about wasting money on a Visor Prism. For $50.00 more, you get a built in Microphone, Pocket Word, Excel, awesome processing speed 206 Mhz and 32mb Ram. Did I forget to mention BUILT IN MP3 player.
PLEASE keep me up to date when you get yours as I think I may be sold on this product.
Ok, so I'm a PDA slut!
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Posted by Gameboy70 on 09-29-2000 09:30 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by foo fighter
And if the Prism doesn't have built-in MP3 playback capabilities its as good as dead. Especially when you take into account that you can buy an HP Jornada for $400 or an iPAQ for $460 online. Think about it, who the hell is going to spend $450 for a Prism, then turn around and spend nearly $300 for an MP3 add-on module? Sorry guys, it ain't gonna happen.
It doesn't happen now. Most Visor owners aren't getting an MP3 module. It's not a priority. People buy Visors as organizers, not portable audio players.
At 8MB, the Prism most likely won't have MP3 playback. The only thing it will offer, IMO, is color and a faster processor. Some people will inevitably make comparisons to PPC strictly on the basis of color and price, but there's an intangible dimension that has to be accounted for: this is a Palm OS device, not a WinCE-based model. It's the same principle behind Mac fans paying $1200 for an iMac when they could buy a PC with a lot more hardware for the same price. If it doesn't run an OS they like, the bang-for-the-buck factor is largely irrelevant. So the answer to "Who the hell is going to spend $450 for a Prism" is: Palm OS users. But it'll probably still be a hard sell, regardless. I certainly don't expect it to be a blockbuster.
Posted by Gameboy70 on 09-30-2000 02:04 AM:
PDABuzz has an excellent, informative review of the Cli�, giving it an 8.8 out of 10.
Posted by yardie on 09-30-2000 06:23 PM:
MP3 what?
I fail to see how the Prism will fail if it doesn't have built in mp3. MP3 in a PDA is a novelty IMO. Only geekazoids like ourselves want mp3 and other frills built into a device that is suppose to be an organizer.
I agree with Gamebot, in that people will buy the Prism because they like the Palm OS over Wince. I for one *will* be spending the money on the visor prism because I prefer the superior (IMO) Palm OS over the pocket windows (which it basically is).
Posted by kalaban on 09-30-2000 10:42 PM:
Re: MP3 what?
quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I fail to see how the Prism will fail if it doesn't have built in mp3. MP3 in a PDA is a novelty IMO. Only geekazoids like ourselves want mp3 and other frills built into a device that is suppose to be an organizer.
I agree with Gamebot, in that people will buy the Prism because they like the Palm OS over Wince. I for one *will* be spending the money on the visor prism because I prefer the superior (IMO) Palm OS over the pocket windows (which it basically is).
Yardie:
I will be taking the money I would have spent on the Prism and get the IPAQ. No need for voice recording module, mp3 module, 8mg flash module. Not to mention saving money on having to purchase a word processor or spreadsheet seperately.
If those frills are available for the same cost, why not get them?
I have never seen the wince OS, is the Palm OS that much better?__________________
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Therefore I am cool!
Posted by yucca on 10-01-2000 07:17 PM:
Originally posted by kalaban
quote:
I have never seen the wince OS, is the Palm OS that much better?
The answers to that question are part factual and a whole lot of personal preference. So, before starting yet another pointless OS holy war, can we agree to just focus on the key differentiators between the two OS? Even better, state what your requirements are; and I think you'll get more enlightenment and alot less wasted heat.
If your requirements include MP3, color, tight integration with MS Word and voice recording, then WinCE devices are really the most cost effective way to go. The downside? You'll have fewer software options, an interface that is less efficient than the Palm OS, and no Mac support (what about Linux support?).
Posted by Gameboy70 on 10-01-2000 08:40 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by kalaban I have never seen the wince OS, is the Palm OS that much better?
Rather than pretend to be objective, I'll give you my reason for choosing the Palm OS over WinCE. I used to own a Newton 110 and wasn't happy with the handwriting recognition, which ostensibly wasn't optimized for lefties. My first thought was to get a Palm III, but the PalmPC (as the first versions of pen-based CE devices were called) was announced.
On paper, I couldn't see any reason why anyone would choose a Palm III over one of the WinCE handhelds. The WinCE models had higher screen resolution, more RAM, more software and a bunch of other advantages. So one day I went into Staples and tried one of the Casio products. I thought it was OK, but not enough to justify a $499 purchase.
Then I tried the Palm III and liked it immediately, especially for $369. The main difference for me is in the interface. WinCE uses hierarchical menus to navigate to a particular file or application, just like the desktop versions of Windows. I don't think it works on a 3" screen: it looks and feels awkward. While there are other complaints about PocketPCs, this is the one thing that's kept me from adopting them, regardless of how many features Microsoft and OEMs add. The interface is, for me, too irritating.
I hoped the PocketPC would significantly streamline the interface from CE 2.0, but it turned out to be a fairly minor update. I would've had a lot more respect for Microsoft if they had chosen to write a new PDA OS from the ground up instead of trying to squeeze a desktop OS into a handheld. Unfortunately, there's an upper limit to how much MS can simplify CE without fundamentally breaking the underlying Windows architecture.
You really should go into a store and try one of the PPCs. Only you can decide from your own experience whether the criticisms or exaggerated or right on target.
Posted by scc4fun on 12-01-2000 10:05 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by kalaban
Foo Fighter:
For $50.00 more, you get a built in Microphone,
All Visors (DX, Platinum and Prism) have built-in microphones. That's why the VisorPhone only needs a speaker for use w/o a headset.
Posted by vbing on 12-01-2000 10:27 PM:
For those that talk about the need for MP3 ability, they should be aware that there are many tech-evangelists that even question the long term viability of the format.
Between the low-res quality and the lack of secure delivery, MP3 could be a short-lived format. Compression continues to improve, especially with media formats and the possibility of better sonic quality with similar or better compression is on the horizon. As well, once a secure delivery format that works is adopted by the major labels, will people be willing to translate to another format??
Posted by thorin on 12-02-2000 02:55 AM:
mp3
That's why you're supposed to buy mp3 players with firmware upgrade capabilities(flash upgrade). I assume you could do this with the pocket pc machines(just upgrade the media player software). all this, provided the compression scheme doesn't get so complex that your player can't handle the processing reqs...
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Posted by Visorholic on 12-02-2000 05:22 AM:
I don't think you have anything to worry about with the MP3 format. There's alot of music out there now in the MP3 format. As for its quality, I think don't its a big concern fore most users. Its not the highest quality but users don't seem to mind, its comparable to FM. There are so many songs out there in the MP3 format that I think it will be a while until the format changes significantly. The secure format you bring into question is already in place in most MP3 players. But its not even taking as well as the labels would like it to. In fact it has hardly taken at all.
I own a rio 500 and I recently upgraded the firmware on it to support secure audio books. Any MP3 player that is upgradable should stay current for the next couple years. The next advancement I would like to see is cheaper and more plentiful solid state memory. Other than that, I think that if you buy a quality MP3 player today you'll not have to worry about it being obsolete for a long time.
-Visorholic
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