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-- Powell (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=32028)

Posted by ToolkiT on 02-14-2003 05:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Umm weren't the Strict economic sanctions brought about through the will of the League of Nations (the Pre-UN) and consequently wasn't the same organisation responsible for letting Hitler get away with so much, setting up the atrocities of WWII?

<snap>

Back to the WWII analogy - If you want to play Chamberlain and stick your head in the sand because you refuse to see evil, do so, just don't expect others to stick their heads in the sand too. That way only leads to the slaughter of more innocents.?

BM, you are right it wasn't only the US involved my wording wasnt quite right...

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

America is the largest, powerful "free" country in the world right now. We have the responsibilty and the right to do what we feel is necessary and right, with or without the will of the UN. Since the UN can't seem to make any nation do anything without their agreement I can't really see an alternative.
?

So being the largest, most powerfull gives you that right??? interesting..
In highschool we had that issue too.. they call it bullying.. :/

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

As to your analogy on firearms and Texas. The result of such a predicament would be removal/restructuring of the law enforcement enforcement agency. So maybe it's time to disband the UN and try something else?

In not against replacing the UN if there is a better alternative...
Problem is, even though the UN is far from perfect, what would be better?

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Posted by ToolkiT on 02-14-2003 05:36 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Powell

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

Do you have any evidence that the United States has a chemical weapon arsenal?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/d...army/r10_16.pdf
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/cbw/cw.htm

Don't tell me you were going to deny the US has chemical weapons... they allready started making AND using it in WWI...

Next thing you are going to deny the US has biological weapons...
The antrax that was used post 9-11 was originally developped in the US...

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Posted by ToolkiT on 02-14-2003 05:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

That would be why something between one and two million Afghani refugees went home after the Taliban was removed, I suppose.

What were there other options?? did they have other options at all??

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Posted by KRamsauer on 02-14-2003 03:19 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Powell

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I think the U.S. is more a threat to world peace than Iraq ever will be.

Seems like you give no weight to the political systems of either country. As imperfect as it may be, the US is less of a danger to the world because of the way it is run internally. We have a responsible government. When you lose faith in democracy and think we are worse than a dictatorship, you're making a larger statement than I think you know.

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Posted by KRamsauer on 02-14-2003 03:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
So being the largest, most powerfull gives you that right??? interesting..
In highschool we had that issue too.. they call it bullying.. :/

Interesting choice of words. If the bully were to help the teachers in enforcing their rules, the situation would change. They would no longer be bullies, but enforcers. That is what this comes down to. You can whine all you want that we are bullies but the fact of the matter is the US is presently enforcing the UN's mandate because they are too scared to do it themselves. I am not sure if that is the right move, but that is what the US is doing. They are not bullying.

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Posted by K. Cannon on 02-14-2003 04:27 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Powell

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
When you lose faith in democracy and think we are worse than a dictatorship, you're making a larger statement than I think you know.

Hear, hear!!

quote:
Mr. Ramsauer againbut the fact of the matter is the US is presently enforcing the UN's mandate because they are too scared to do it themselves. I am not sure if that is the right move, but that is what the US is doing. They are not bullying.

Double hear, hear!!
(including the bolded portion)

Kelley

Posted by boardoe on 02-14-2003 07:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Interesting choice of words. If the bully were to help the teachers in enforcing their rules, the situation would change. They would no longer be bullies, but enforcers. That is what this comes down to. You can whine all you want that we are bullies but the fact of the matter is the US is presently enforcing the UN's mandate because they are too scared to do it themselves. I am not sure if that is the right move, but that is what the US is doing. They are not bullying.

So a kid is chewing gum in school, which is against the rules, and another kid comes up and swats him in the head with a baseball bat breaking his jaw (stopping him from chewing the gum) - and the bat wielder says "I was just enforcing the school's rules". I don't think this is what you meant to suggest??? I will agree that he is no longer a bully - he's a felon.

Posted by John Nowak on 02-14-2003 07:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

What were there other options?? did they have other options at all??

Gee, I dunno -- maybe staying in the same place they lived for the previous ten years?

Posted by John Nowak on 02-14-2003 08:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
just to show I'm not the only person who shows things out of context to get the point across:

Oh, yeah -- that would be the neighbor who broke into two of his neighbors' houses, beats his wife, gets large packages from ANTHRAX-R-US, and the local cop who claims he sees no reason to be worried?

And anyway, if he were worried, all he can do do is send you in anyway, because you're the only person in the neighborhood who spent the time and money so you can?

It's amazing to me how much of this boils down to comparing Hussein to a disobedient child and bleating, "We want to control America's military."

Posted by MarkEagle on 02-14-2003 10:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by boardoe
So a kid is chewing gum in school

...an interesting analogy that makes sense on its own merits. However, the reality is that weapons of mass destruction can hardly be compared to a piece of Doublemint! It's apples and oranges. What if that same gum-chewing student were pointing a gun at the teacher? Would you still call the bat swinger a felon?

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Posted by KRamsauer on 02-14-2003 11:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by boardoe

So a kid is chewing gum in school, which is against the rules, and another kid comes up and swats him in the head with a baseball bat breaking his jaw (stopping him from chewing the gum) - and the bat wielder says "I was just enforcing the school's rules". I don't think this is what you meant to suggest??? I will agree that he is no longer a bully - he's a felon.

Please don't stretch things out of proportion. In such a situation you make no reference to authorities being afraid to enforce the rules.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 02-15-2003 12:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
...an interesting analogy that makes sense on its own merits. However, the reality is that weapons of mass destruction can hardly be compared to a piece of Doublemint! It's apples and oranges. What if that same gum-chewing student were pointing a gun at the teacher? Would you still call the bat swinger a felon?

I agree that the chewinggum one is too weak (unless you live in Singapore), yours however is too strong...

Its more like one (or a few) teachers/kids think the kid may have a gun at home it may use one day... searching his locker and room hasn't shown any solid evidence...

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Posted by ToolkiT on 02-15-2003 02:13 AM:

[off topic]
BTW just wanted to say how much I appreciate it how we can have this discussion without it turning into namecalling etc.
I really appreciate that the VC/TC users show respect to other members even in their political views sometime seem to be 100% reversed...
Also like the fact that we actually having an discusion.. it would be really boring if we'd all agree...
[/off topic]

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Posted by BobbyMike on 02-15-2003 04:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

So being the largest, most powerfull gives you that right??? interesting..
In highschool we had that issue too.. they call it bullying.. :/

Or you could call it the kid who goes and pulls the bully off a smaller kid while the rest of the kids look on sheepishly....

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Posted by boardoe on 02-15-2003 04:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
...an interesting analogy that makes sense on its own merits. However, the reality is that weapons of mass destruction can hardly be compared to a piece of Doublemint! It's apples and oranges. What if that same gum-chewing student were pointing a gun at the teacher? Would you still call the bat swinger a felon?

Actually, its more a case of oranges and tangerines. Under your scenario, the bat swinger might still be charged with felonious assault. He could try to beat it by invoking the defense of justification. In most jurisdictions, the use of deadly physical force (which hitting someone in the head with a bat probably is) is restricted to extreme situations, e.g - where there is the threat of imminent deadly physical force against you or another and usually requires a showing that there was no viable retreat possible (draw your own analogies with the Iraq situation). Under your scenario, there are not enough facts to know how that would play out (e.g., was the gun an obvious fake?). My original exagerated example was only to counter the idea that inaction by the authorities justifies vigilanteism. Our system of jurisprudence rests on the premise of rule of law (objective), not man (subjective). The UN is an attempt to apply those principles to international relations. To the extent that this whole episode might prove that to be a pipe dream is IMHO very sad.

Posted by yardie on 02-15-2003 01:21 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Powell

Democracy has nothing to do with a powerful country imposing its will on another country. The U.S. government always turn a non-threat into a threat to get the American people on board... and the have the media to do the brainwashing. Ever notice that the word terrorism is linked to everything the U.S. government hates or disagree with now?

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Seems like you give no weight to the political systems of either country. As imperfect as it may be, the US is less of a danger to the world because of the way it is run internally. We have a responsible government. When you lose faith in democracy and think we are worse than a dictatorship, you're making a larger statement than I think you know.

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Posted by yardie on 02-15-2003 01:29 PM:

The UN is becoming irrelevant in the world because it is increasinlgy being viewed has an arm of the U.S goverment and the West. I often wonder if this is the case myself. When the U.S doesn't get what it wants from the U.N it start to harp about the U.N risks becoming irrelevant. It does the same thing at NATO. I suppose a teenager can tell their parents they are irrelevant when they do not get to do what they want to do.

quote:
Originally posted by boardoe

Actually, its more a case of oranges and tangerines. Under your scenario, the bat swinger might still be charged with felonious assault. He could try to beat it by invoking the defense of justification. In most jurisdictions, the use of deadly physical force (which hitting someone in the head with a bat probably is) is restricted to extreme situations, e.g - where there is the threat of imminent deadly physical force against you or another and usually requires a showing that there was no viable retreat possible (draw your own analogies with the Iraq situation). Under your scenario, there are not enough facts to know how that would play out (e.g., was the gun an obvious fake?). My original exagerated example was only to counter the idea that inaction by the authorities justifies vigilanteism. Our system of jurisprudence rests on the premise of rule of law (objective), not man (subjective). The UN is an attempt to apply those principles to international relations. To the extent that this whole episode might prove that to be a pipe dream is IMHO very sad.

__________________
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Posted by BobbyMike on 02-15-2003 03:02 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Powell

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Democracy has nothing to do with a powerful country imposing its will on another country. The U.S. government always turn a non-threat into a threat to get the American people on board... and the have the media to do the brainwashing. Ever notice that the word terrorism is linked to everything the U.S. government hates or disagree with now?

So the possibility exists that the guys caught attempting to smuggle explosives into the USA from Canada (at Niagra Falls) might not be terrorists? Did you know it's easier for people to smuggle things over the Canadian border than it is for them to smuggle things over the Mexican border? Maybe it's because the Mexicans, even though they often disagree with the US over policy, take the idea of terrorists more seriously? It can't be because they have more money to spend on the problem.

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
The UN is becoming irrelevant in the world because it is increasinlgy being viewed has an arm of the U.S goverment and the West. I often wonder if this is the case myself. When the U.S doesn't get what it wants from the U.N it start to harp about the U.N risks becoming irrelevant. It does the same thing at NATO. I suppose a teenager can tell their parents they are irrelevant when they do not get to do what they want to do.

The first problem with this analogy is that the UN is no-ones parent. It's the child. Not only that, it's the bastard stepchild built from the dead parts of several corpses whining in the corner about being ignored. The UN has never taken part in the formation of anything that everybody, nor even a majority, could agree on. It was irrelevant from it's inception.

The second is that you could assert (at least that's what I'm getting) that Saddam is a non-threat when he himself has continually asserted that he opposes the USA, supports action against the USA and wants to destroy our allies (Israel). He also has tried to commit genocide on people living within his country (the Kurds) and has harbored people who the UN term terrorists.

Here in the USA we often view the UN as being an arm of disenfranchised third world nations and post colonial European nations with no real power. Kinda of like those cranky old people in nursing homes who have an opinion on everything but still need help feeding themselves and cleaning up after they wet themselves.

It really frustrates a lot of people around the world that America doesn't just collapse and implode. It constantly proves that their theories and opinions on how life should work are just that, theories and opinions.

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Posted by dick-richardson on 02-15-2003 03:41 PM:

Where does (or would) the UN get its teeth? Where does (or would) it get its brain?

Hilarity ensues.

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Posted by KRamsauer on 02-15-2003 08:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
[off topic]
BTW just wanted to say how much I appreciate it how we can have this discussion without it turning into namecalling etc.
I really appreciate that the VC/TC users show respect to other members even in their political views sometime seem to be 100% reversed...
[/off topic]

Alright, I can't take it any more. You're such a goody little **& &D(*&(*D &(&()((*)(&(* (^&*^%&*% &*%*&^&*(%&(*^(&% )*(^% &(*^*&%^&*(*)%(&*&()& .

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