VisorCentral.com - Why blame handspring?

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Posted by adfleisher on 11-02-2000 08:18 PM:

First of all, all of this flamming of handspring is out of line.

While they did invent the technology and did tell us they would always support it, they didn't make the modules in question, and had no control over the contents of those modules. If we were running into incompatibility issues with Handspring manufactured modules I guaruntee I would be right here with everyone else screaming about being misled. But the fact of the matter is still that the company has to this point continued to support it's original product line, and I doubt that will change. Until it does, how about giving the company a break and limiting our flames to the people really responsible for our dilema?

Remember that the springboard specs are OPEN SOURCE. This means anyone with the know how can develop modules and bring them to market. While it is this factor that is causing the current problems with wireless connectivity, it is also the reason so many companys have been able to start up in this economy and make the springboard modules we all crave so veimently! How many of you actually think that SoundsGood, Global Access, or any of the new company's that ONLY manufacture springboards would have jumped on the development bandwagon so quickly if they had to deal with corporate interference and acceptance ALA Apple?

I too was an early adopter (recieved my IVdx 1 year ago today), and am now having to upgrade to the Platinum to get the wireless connectivity I crave, but that is the story told by every early adopter of a new product since high-tech became a houshold word. How many of you pissed and moaned this loud when you found out you needed to spend $200 for a new video card when the killer 3D apps started comming out for your PC? Very few I'm sure, because you realized as most sane people do that the need for speed and keeping up with the Jones' drive this economy and your purchasing decisions.

Would it be better if OmniSky had made their unit and service compatible with the VDx? Sure. And if that is what you want, the VisorPhone will give it to you without upgrading. But who among us would want a wireless module that prevented us from using all of the cool PQA's that our buddy's with the VII have had for months?

Well, I guess that is enough of a rant for today, but I hope everyone now understands that technology evolves, and just because you bought a handheld a year ago doesn't mean you are entitled to the same technolgical marvels as the people willing to pony up and feed their cravings.

Let the flames begin and end here.

BigDrew

__________________
"Whoever said bigger isn't better...Lied!"

Posted by Gameboy70 on 11-02-2000 08:43 PM:

It's true that Springboard manufacturers, not Handspring, are responsible for the incompatibilities, but I've always thought it was odd that Handspring chose to include OS 3.1 rather than the Palm VII's 3.3 -- which was available before the Visor was released and could certainly support PQAs. That's like selling a new PC with Win98 instead of WinME. Some Handspring reps I've talked to have said that the whole reason for the Springboard slot was wireless expandability (MP3 players, digital cameras, etc. were afterthoughts), so it's strange that they chose to go with an OS that didn't support PQA content.

If I had known then what I know now, I would've gotten a Palm Vx and waited to see what Handspring offered next. But I'm going to upgrade to a Prism, since color and full wireless support is the only "upgrades" I'll need in the foreseeable future.

__________________
Eye of Gameboy

Posted by Visorholic on 11-02-2000 08:44 PM:

I don't think the flaming is out of line at all. I think that some people on this board are genuinely ticked at Handspring. I don't think its out of line to voice your frustations, and I don't think that Handspring bears NO responsibility because Omnisky developed the service. I think what people are concerned about is the way Handspring assured us that flash was not going to be a big issue one year ago, yet now, Palm V's are using omnisky with no problems because they have flash, meanwhile we are stuck upgrading to Handspring newer line. How nice. And Handspring is also plugging Omnisky service for them in their accesorries brochure. Handspring does have control in this situation. Its not a one sided issue.

Posted by DanJ on 11-02-2000 09:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Gameboy70
That's like selling a new PC with Win98 instead of WinME.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Posted by raptor on 11-03-2000 02:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Gameboy70
I've always thought it was odd that Handspring chose to include OS 3.1 rather than the Palm VII's 3.3 -- which was available before the Visor was released and could certainly support PQAs.

Maybe it had something to do with the licensing agreement they had with Palm? Maybe the agreement sets forth which version of the OS Handspring has access to for certain members of their product line. It's been done before, primarily to prevent the licensee from overshadowing the provider.

Or maybe they (Handspring) weren't too sure that the whole PQA thing would take off as it has. I mean, on paper, (to me, at least) 'web clipping' versus 'full access' seems like a no-brainer. On impulse I'd choose full access browsing over the limited type. Of course, closer study shows that PQAs have their advantages.

Just musing.

__________________
-Richard Powell

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

Posted by yardie on 11-03-2000 05:19 PM:

Agree 100%

Adfleisher:

I agree with you 100%. The "mob" is chasing the wrong the man.

Posted by bnjacobs on 11-03-2000 10:36 PM:

I agree, sort of. I think many of us bought the blind marketing line about being able to plug and play the modules.

Of course, the reality is, VDx users can use SOME Springboard modules.

It may not be Handspring's fault, but for them to simply wash their hands of the issue is a slap in the face of people who've invested hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's not a character flaw simply because we don't fall into line with those who just pony-up the extra money for a Prism.

As a marketing and PR tool, it wouldn't be a bad idea for Handspring to find a way to soothe the betryal felt by some very loyal customers.

However, as inquiries from Handspring indicate, the company simply doesn't care. Does that make their product bad? Of course not. But it does make me take note, and I'm more likely to think before I buy into the promises of a PDA future filled with synergy.

Like I've said in other forums, if you agree that it would be nice for Handspring to offer even token empathy, send them a note. If you don't... don't. After all, it's a free market economy.

As for me, before I shell out an additional $449, I'll take a serious look at the Pocket PC.

Posted by JHromadka on 11-04-2000 01:50 AM:

What do you call a $100 rebate or the exchange? Sounds like HS is thinking about its past customers to me.

How's this for an analogy? If you bought a Nintendo Pocket GameBoy the year before the Color GameBoy came out, you were out of luck when those GBC-only games started coming out. Did Nintendo offer any exchange so you could play GBC games in mono on your Pocket GB? Nope. Did any game manufacturers offer rebates if you bought a GBC? Not that I'm aware of.

At least you have an upgrade option.

__________________
James Hromadka
Old Friend

Posted by zelchenko on 11-04-2000 02:36 AM:

you ARE that dense

JHromadka said:
What do you call a $100 rebate or the exchange? Sounds like HS is thinking about its past customers to me.

==
We knew of the Minstrel S (or at least >I< did) long before we knew of Prism/Platinum. I'd bought the VDX specifically in anticipation of THAT module. They >announced< the module LONG before they >announced< the compatibility issues. Why? So they can pocket some extra cash. I bought 2 VDXs--not because I couldn't wait. I WOULD'VE waited had I known that I needed the NEXT model. Do NOT give me this crap about rebates. I still have to pony up bucks. It's a HUGE inconvenience. For that same reason, don't give me this crap about being able to recoup my bucks on e-bay.

I cannot understand how you people can defend Handspring's position on this. Well, whatever. It really sucks because I LIKE Handspring and they have to go and screw up like this.

Posted by Toby on 11-04-2000 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JHromadka
What do you call a $100 rebate or the exchange? Sounds like HS is thinking about its past customers to me.

Considering that the exchange still doesn't solve the issues with the OS, it seems like a token effort at best.

quote:
How's this for an analogy? If you bought a Nintendo Pocket GameBoy the year before the Color GameBoy came out, you were out of luck when those GBC-only games started coming out. Did Nintendo offer any exchange so you could play GBC games in mono on your Pocket GB? Nope. Did any game manufacturers offer rebates if you bought a GBC? Not that I'm aware of.

Three things keep it from being a good analogy. First is that not everyone bought their VDx a year before the VPl or VPr. I bought mine in July and my wife's in September (they were announced less than a week outside of the 30 day return period for hers). The second, and more important, is that Nintendo likely never made a commitment to the Gameboys being "infinitely expandable" and excused their lack of "OS" upgradability by saying that they be able to release patches or springboard based upgrades to overcome this. Third is that Nintendo couldn't have driven sales by announcing color games which wouldn't be compatible with existing units. Handspring did drive sales by announcing springboards which wouldn't be compatible with existing units.

Ultimately the question seems to be, "were they acting in good faith when doing this?" I'm not sure either way at this point, but given the replies I've gotten to several "CustomerCare" inquiries, my thoughts are definitely leaning to the unfavorable side on that matter.

quote:
At least you have an upgrade option.

quote:
Handspring is a technology company constantly developing and releasing new products. We do not offer upgrade or side-grade paths from one to another, nor will we be accepting trade-ins. Technology companies must revise and improve their product lines on an ongoing basis. Handspring cannot pre-announce releases for competitive reasons like any other innovative retailer. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

I think if they had been more public about this attitude, they'd have not had as many customers to keep them around to revise and improve those products.

Posted by MarkEagle on 11-04-2000 03:37 PM:

I'm just thinking out loud here...

While I am sympathetic to those who feel betrayed by Handspring, I wonder why everyone is so vocal here at VisorCentral. Wouldn't we collectively be better off voicing all of these concerns directly to Handspring? I'm sure they monitor these forums... but unless they are contacted directly, they may choose not to do anything. Just think what might happen if they starting receiving hundreds, or possibly thousands, of emails or phone calls about topics like this. Flaming Handspring and others here is worthless (while it may be very theraputic ) unless you flame them directly as well.

I admit that I'm pro-Handspring. I own a VDx... and I really believe in the company and its products. However, if and when I'm unhappy about something they (or any other manufacturer for that matter) have done (or not done), I contact them about it. Granted, some of the responses I've received from HS and others have been rather non-committal or just plain evasive of the question, but sooner or later, a chord will be struck.

Another thing that I think about frequently is this: since Springboard technology is only a year old, isn't it conceivable that there are (and will continue to be) unforseen factors that limit certain capabilities? Granted, many of the incompatabilities seem to be OS-related to the point where the lack of flash ROM is a bigger factor than originally thought... but then again, Springboards should be able to provide the necessary code updates for their own use (at least that's what the specs all say).

As I said, I'm just thinking out loud here. Since I am not currently interested in any of this wireless stuff (simply because the monthly fees don't make it feasable for me), I'm not directly affected by this whole thing. Tomorrow might be another story... there's bound to be some app or module that I want that won't work on OS3.1H... it's inevitable... just like all those neat apps that came out for Win95 and left the 3.1 users in the dark, etc, etc, etc...

__________________

God bless America, my home sweet home...

Posted by yardie on 11-04-2000 03:53 PM:

<QUOTE>
Considering that the exchange still doesn't solve the issues with the OS, it seems like a token effort at best.
<QUOTE>

A token effort is better than NO Effort at all. This "token" effort shows that Handspring has not forgotten its old customer base. They didn't have to make the effort.

<Quote>
Three things keep it from being a good analogy. First is that not everyone bought their VDx a year before the VPl or VPr. I bought mine in July and my wife's in September (they were announced less than a week outside of the 30 day return period for hers).
<Quote>

I am sure people bought the old GameBoy version weeks before the old version as well. Don't see your point here.

<QUOTE>
The second, and more important, is that Nintendo likely never made a commitment to the Gameboys being "infinitely expandable" and excused their lack of "OS" upgradability by saying that they be able to release patches or springboard based upgrades to overcome this.
<Quote>

The expandability of the Visor is a fact -- NOT a commitment. The Visor was designed with a springboard slot to accomodate potential third party modules just like how USB is built into newer computers to accomodate potential third party peripherals.

<Quote>
Third is that Nintendo couldn't have driven sales by announcing color games which wouldn't be compatible with existing units. Handspring did drive sales by announcing springboards which wouldn't be compatible with existing units.
<Quote>

The only springboards I saw Handspring announced were there own. All the other springboards were announced by their respective developers in press releases (See VC's module page). Needless to say, all of Handspring's modules work with all the current Visors.

<Quote>
Ultimately the question seems to be, "were they acting in good faith when doing this?" I'm not sure either way at this point, but given the replies I've gotten to several "CustomerCare" inquiries, my thoughts are definitely leaning to the unfavorable side on that matter.
<Quote>

Acting in bad faith doing what? I haven't seen Handspring do anything different from what other technology companies do.

*********************************

quote:
Handspring is a technology company constantly developing and releasing new products. We do not offer upgrade or side-grade paths from one to another, nor will we be accepting trade-ins. Technology companies must revise and improve their product lines on an ongoing basis. Handspring cannot pre-announce releases for competitive reasons like any other innovative retailer. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

*************************************

<Quote>
I think if they had been more public about this attitude, they'd have not had as many customers to keep them around to revise and improve those products. [/QUOTE]

I am not too sure about that. I do not know of any PDA company which offers upgrades or trade-ins. Had Handspring totally left out its old customer base (ie discontinue older modules and offering no support), I would agree with you. But they have not. I am sure that most people are still buying the regular and deluxe models KNOWING that these newer models exist.

Posted by cptncelchu on 11-04-2000 10:03 PM:

Didn't Casio allow you to send in your CE 2.11 machine and $200 and send you a E-115 with CE 3 preinstalled? Sure $200 is a lot of money, but it's a lot less that what it would cost if you sold the E-100 online and bought an new E-115.

Posted by yucca on 11-05-2000 02:49 AM:

Why complain here?

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
Wouldn't we collectively be better off voicing all of these concerns directly to Handspring

Judging by the responses folks have been getting from Handspring, a complaint to Handspring is wasted energy, and only guaranteed to raise the blood pressure. In addition to blowing off steam, at least a post here may warn a potential buyer that they should pay more attention to the OS upgradeability issue. Contrary to the conclusion you can easily reach by consulting Handsprings' website (or VisorCentral), the evidence is accumulating that OS deficiencies are not correctable via the SBM. If a Palm OS capability is not there in your Visor's ROM, you should not expect a SBM to fill the void.

Posted by zelchenko on 11-05-2000 04:02 AM:

yardie lacks perspective

Quoted from Prism/Platinum General Forum, yardie said:
"Me too. I plan to upgrade every year if Handspring decides to come out with a new model every year."

==

It's pretty clear to me that yardie lacks perspective and has never learned the value of money. Although I didn't purchase my Visors until July, I had been following all of the announcements by Handspring and its licensees. Handspring has been the whole time cultivating the image of a product that is supposed to delay the "upgrade cycle". If this had been two years after VDXes release and say, there were 20 useful Springboards available for purchase, I'd agree that it is a reasonable time to start marketing products that are incompatible with VDXes. But this is barely 1 year later and there are maybe 20 available Springboards and a fewer number that falls into the "useful" category. Right now I'm trying to convince myself that I just need to wait and try to focus on my VDXes present (if limited) capabilities and stop fuming, because it makes it unpleasant to use my VDX if I'm all riled up. I'll just have to be a little more patient and hope someone will come up with a solution that satisfies me. I have already accepted that Handspring will not be the source of that solution. I feel that Handspring made some mistakes and I sincerely wish they would acknowledge them. If they don't, I will regretfully try to find another company to patronize.

Posted by kalahari on 11-05-2000 04:21 AM:

Re: yardie lacks perspective

quote:
Originally posted by zelchenko
...It's pretty clear to me that yardie lacks perspective and has never learned the value of money...

LOL...

yardie was echoing my sentiment that I plan to upgrade/replace my Visor every year. Well, I guess I never learned the value of money either

We're talking about a $450 device here! Realistically, we're only talking about a less than $300 upgrade cost as I should get at least $150 for my Deluxe.

I would be annoyed if I had to replace my springboards every year but it doesn't look as though that will be the case. My Backup, Flash and eyemodule Modules will work in my Prism (once eyemodule releases the patch). I would be even more annoyed if all the money that I've spent on Palm OS software didn't work but that's not the case either...

[Edited by kalahari on 11-04-2000 at 11:41 PM]

Posted by yardie on 11-05-2000 08:33 AM:

Re: yardie lacks perspective

quote:
Originally posted by zelchenko
Quoted from Prism/Platinum General Forum, yardie said:
"Me too. I plan to upgrade every year if Handspring decides to come out with a new model every year."

I like to have the latest and greatest things. I DO not have to upgrade every year. My Visor Deluxe serves my needs very well right now...but I'd rather have a Prism. The Value of the Visor to customers is subjective. SOme people's lives fevolves around the Visor. As such, they don't mind paying out $449 to get the latest and greatest.

Posted by Toby on 11-06-2000 04:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
While I am sympathetic to those who feel betrayed by Handspring, I wonder why everyone is so vocal here at VisorCentral.

Just so you know, I don't feel "betrayed" by Handspring. The product I purchased serves my present needs just fine. I'm just a bit nonplussed by their "CustomerCare" where these recent issues are concerned. I'm not planning to discard my IVDx at the moment, but I'm also not likely to recommend new purchases as I have in the past either as long as these sort of issues exist.

quote:
Wouldn't we collectively be better off voicing all of these concerns directly to Handspring? I'm sure they monitor these forums... but unless they are contacted directly, they may choose not to do anything.

I have contacted them directly. They're still choosing not to do anything. The quote in my reply to James was from Handspring's "CustomerCare". As I said in another thread, though, I would highly recommend that anyone who is displeased with this issue contact Handspring in a rational and business-like manner. More complaints can only help.

quote:
Just think what might happen if they starting receiving hundreds, or possibly thousands, of emails or phone calls about topics like this. Flaming Handspring and others here is worthless (while it may be very theraputic ) unless you flame them directly as well.

heh...I plan to see what happens when they receive a complaint in person next week.

quote:
I admit that I'm pro-Handspring. I own a VDx...

As do I. I'm far from anti-Handspring. I'm just very disappointed in their handling of this issue. It doesn't seem to speak well of their business sense.

quote:
and I really believe in the company and its products. However, if and when I'm unhappy about something they (or any other manufacturer for that matter) have done (or not done), I contact them about it. Granted, some of the responses I've received from HS and others have been rather non-committal or just plain evasive of the question, but sooner or later, a chord will be struck.

One can only hope.

quote:
Another thing that I think about frequently is this: since Springboard technology is only a year old, isn't it conceivable that there are (and will continue to be) unforseen factors that limit certain capabilities? Granted, many of the incompatabilities seem to be OS-related to the point where the lack of flash ROM is a bigger factor than originally thought... but then again, Springboards should be able to provide the necessary code updates for their own use (at least that's what the specs all say).

That's the point that grinds on me the most. This was supposed to be a non-issue with the Springboard technology. OS updates which were needed for certain functionality were supposed to be able to be included on the module, and Handspring was supposedly going to partner with module manufacturers to facilitate this.

quote:
As I said, I'm just thinking out loud here. Since I am not currently interested in any of this wireless stuff (simply because the monthly fees don't make it feasable for me), I'm not directly affected by this whole thing.

Coverage areas make it infeasible for me at the moment, but it does make me seriously wonder about near-future models (wired ethernet, bluetooth, wireless ethernet). What if their reason for delay is that they're only going to be compatible with the new Visors?

quote:
Tomorrow might be another story... there's bound to be some app or module that I want that won't work on OS3.1H... it's inevitable... just like all those neat apps that came out for Win95 and left the 3.1 users in the dark, etc, etc, etc...

I'm not as concerned about that since most apps that I find useful already exist. My biggest concern is whether or not the modules I mentioned will leave me high and dry. Wired ethernet or wireless ethernet is my personal killer app. Bluetooth would be useful if other devices start arriving in goodly numbers as well.

And now for something completely different...

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
A token effort is better than NO Effort at all.

No, a token effort basically is no effort. That's the point. It's something easily done which gives you the impression that they're making an effort when they really aren't.

quote:
This "token" effort shows that Handspring has not forgotten its old customer base. They didn't have to make the effort.

Exactly what effort did they make? They issued a form e-letter apology? They're taking a lower profit in order to increase market and mindshare? This isn't an effort. It's a business-model. Businesses in Handspring's stages are expected to make some degree of loss if they can show that they're building a substantial market.

quote:
I am sure people bought the old GameBoy version weeks before the old version as well.

Irrelevant. The example originally used assumed that the units were purchase one year before the new one came out.

quote:
Don't see your point here.

The point was that the example didn't take all possibilities into account.

quote:
The expandability of the Visor is a fact -- NOT a commitment.

Not sure what you're on about here. Handspring's website makes all sorts of commitments about the expandibility of Visors in an effort to ameliorate people's concerns about the lack of flash memory (see their FAQs in their support section). I've posted that elsewhere already, so I won't be redundant.

quote:
The Visor was designed with a springboard slot to accomodate potential third party modules just like how USB is built into newer computers to accomodate potential third party peripherals.

Except that most USB peripheral manufacturers will take the existing USB user base into account when releasing something.

quote:
The only springboards I saw Handspring announced were there own.

Have you ever even been to Handspring's web page? Right there on the homepage is a Springboard Module News link which tracks press releases and links to manufacturers sites. Handspring promoted(s) these third party manufacturers with the explicit goal of showing how expandable their devices are. Now that some of the most anticipated modules are finally shipping (after missing original projections by as much as a year in some cases), they suddenly aren't compatible with the devices that have been purchased in anticipation of them.

quote:
All the other springboards were announced by their respective developers in press releases (See VC's module page).

Which are also posted on Handspring's page and given prominent spaces usually.

quote:
Needless to say, all of Handspring's modules work with all the current Visors.

All of their currently released modules anyway. The VisorPhone hasn't made it to market yet, so the final reckoning has yet to happen.

quote:
Acting in bad faith doing what?

Promoting sales of older products using modules which hadn't yet shipped, and when they finally did ship weren't compatible with older products, and hence you need to buy this new product. This would be called a bait-and-switch in some sales circles.

quote:
I haven't seen Handspring do anything different from what other technology companies do.

Institutionalization of bad practices does not make them good practices.

quote:
I am not too sure about that.

You think that if they told people a year ago that they were going to have all these cool wireless modules coming out, but they weren't going to be compatible with the first generation Visors, that as many people would have bought the first generation Visors? Please be serious.

quote:
I do not know of any PDA company which offers upgrades or trade-ins.

I seem to remember ROM upgrades being available from Palm for their non-flashable IIIs when OS 3.0 came out.

quote:
Had Handspring totally left out its old customer base (ie discontinue older modules and offering no support), I would agree with you. But they have not.

By not offering some sort of compatibility patch, it seems that they are offering no support.

quote:
I am sure that most people are still buying the regular and deluxe models KNOWING that these newer models exist.

This really isn't relevant to what I was saying.

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