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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
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-- Sniper (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=28131)

Posted by Xenoepist on 10-25-2002 04:12 PM:

so much for statistics:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Oct25.html

Posted by Toby on 10-25-2002 04:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xenoepist
so much for statistics:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Oct25.html

OK, I couldn't resist the urge. The problem is not with the statistics. The problem is one of application. As with the stock market, past trends are no guarantee of future performance.

Posted by Xenoepist on 10-25-2002 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
The problem is one of application.

Oh precisely, sometimes the media disgust's me. But I am not complaining loudly since it only caters to our hunger for more.

Posted by John Nowak on 10-25-2002 04:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Xenoepist

Yeah ! whats up with our Gulf war vet's? ?

You mean Gulf War vets in general, or the ones who cozy up to Muslim extremists?

Posted by yardie on 10-26-2002 01:21 AM:

I don't remember but wasn't McVeigh a Gulf War vet as well?

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

You mean Gulf War vets in general, or the ones who cozy up to Muslim extremists?

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-26-2002 02:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I don't remember but wasn't McVeigh a Gulf War vet as well?

Good point! I think these two are completely different if for solely one reason. McVeigh loved this country. Despite trying to blow part of it up, his gripe wasn't with the people or that for which the country stands; it was with the gov't. He didn't think the gov't was doing what it should to preserve the country. Now if (this is a huge if and I'm basing it on only a smattering of "evidence" from the media) this guy sympathizes with the Sept 11th hijackers, that would indicate he hates the country and that for which it stands. That's a key difference in ideology.

McVeigh thought our gov't was erasing American ideals. Sept 11th hijackers didn't like those ideals.

__________________
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Posted by Toby on 10-26-2002 02:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I don't remember but wasn't McVeigh a Gulf War vet as well?

So...that's two out of how many...?

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-26-2002 02:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
So...that's two out of how many...?

There's definitely a bias in who we remember. That being said, it appears that in both the McVeigh case and this sniper case, being in the military had an effect on the later crimes.

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Posted by Toby on 10-26-2002 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
There's definitely a bias in who we remember.

I'm not quite sure that you got the point of that, but we've trod upon that ground repeatedly already.

quote:
That being said, it appears that in both the McVeigh case and this sniper case, being in the military had an effect on the later crimes.

I think this effect is the product of an overactive imagination.

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-26-2002 02:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I'm not quite sure that you got the point of that, but we've trod upon that ground repeatedly already.[B]I think this effect is the product of an overactive imagination.

Why aren't you sure? All I'm saying is that certain crimes are more likely to be remembered than others and those differences are systematic.

As for your second comment, you're telling me that the Army and Desert Storm had no effect on the McVeigh and sniper cases? The sniper suspect learned to become an expert marksman (not a sniper) in the army. As for McVeigh, from CNN:

The man convicted of the worst instance of domestic terrorism in the history of the United States started becoming disillusioned with the U.S. government during his service in the Gulf War, he told CBS's "60 Minutes" in an interview aired Sunday.

So apparently if i have an overactive imagination, I'm not alone.

And I congratulate you on your Cal Ripken like streak of disagreeing with me at every turn.

__________________
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Posted by Toby on 10-26-2002 04:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Why aren't you sure?

Because on the whole your comment didn't seem to relate to what I was saying.

quote:
[...] As for your second comment, you're telling me that the Army and Desert Storm had no effect on the McVeigh and sniper cases?

I'm saying that the Army and Desert Storm had no causal effect on turning those two wackos into what they were, any more than being islamic makes someone a terrorist, or working for the post office makes one 'postal'. How many Desert Storm or Army veterans _haven't_ become multiple murderers? How many muslims _aren't_ terrorists?

quote:
The sniper suspect learned to become an expert marksman (not a sniper) in the army.

Strange how media reports vary. I've also seen some which cite both of them as rather mediocre soldiers. Considering that both of them didn't succeed at it, the mediocre reports seem to have a stronger ring of truth.

quote:
As for McVeigh, from CNN:

The man convicted of the worst instance of domestic terrorism in the history of the United States started becoming disillusioned with the U.S. government during his service in the Gulf War, he told CBS's "60 Minutes" in an interview aired Sunday.

His own authorized biography tends to tell it differently.

quote:
So apparently if i have an overactive imagination, I'm not alone.

No dispute there.

quote:
And I congratulate you on your Cal Ripken like streak of disagreeing with me at every turn.

And I congratulate you on your Bob Eucker like grasp of every situation.

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-26-2002 04:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Because on the whole your comment didn't seem to relate to what I was saying.

You were pointing out that the vast majority of Desert Storm people haven't become murderers. I was pointing out that we tend to remember murderers more than non-murderers, and therefore impressions of D.S. causing people to commit crimes are wrong because they suffer from a selection bias (we are more likely to select and notice the noteworthy events.) Even when I agree with you you insist on belittling me.
I've concluded that you're looking to make me look bad. Like anything, what I say can always be misinterpretted. You just seem to both enjoy it and excel at it.

quote:
I'm saying that the Army and Desert Storm had no causal effect on turning those two wackos into what they were, any more than being islamic makes someone a terrorist, or working for the post office makes one 'postal'. How many Desert Storm or Army veterans _haven't_ become multiple murderers? How many muslims _aren't_ terrorists?

Of course it doesn't cause it, but it does play into it. A similar example would be someone who is going to be a mob hit. If he wears a tie, he can be strangled with it. The tie doesn't cause his death but it plays into it and leaves its marks.

quote:
Strange how media reports vary. I've also seen some which cite both of them as rather mediocre soldiers. Considering that both of them didn't succeed at it, the mediocre reports seem to have a stronger ring of truth.

Oh, this sniper guy was a crummy soldier. He wasn't even a soldier but rather an engineer. Nevertheless he took standard arms training and was noted for his marksmanship. BTW I never said he was a good soldier and didn't reference anything that would imply as much. But then again when it's my post, that doesn't matter, does it?

You have to find something to disagree with.

__________________
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Posted by Toby on 10-26-2002 04:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
[...] Even when I agree with you you insist on belittling me.

I didn't belittle you. Perhaps it might be better if you didn't reply to me anymore if you're going to take it this personally?

quote:
I've concluded that you're looking to make me look bad.

Your conclusion is unfounded and a bit paranoid.

quote:
Like anything, what I say can always be misinterpretted.

Then perhaps you should learn to communicate a bit more clearly?

quote:
You just seem to both enjoy it and excel at it.

No, I don't enjoy these exchanges at all. They drain the humor out of life.

quote:
Of course it doesn't cause it, but it does play into it. A similar example would be someone who is going to be a mob hit. If he wears a tie, he can be strangled with it. The tie doesn't cause his death but it plays into it and leaves its marks.

It's 'play' is insignificant in the big picture was my point.

quote:
Oh, this sniper guy was a crummy soldier. He wasn't even a soldier but rather an engineer.

A combat engineer is basically a soldier.

quote:
Nevertheless he took standard arms training and was noted for his marksmanship.

His platoon leader has been quoted as saying he wasn't "anything special" and only received the same awards as nearly everyone else.

quote:
BTW I never said he was a good soldier and didn't reference anything that would imply as much.

You said he was an 'expert marksman'.

quote:
But then again when it's my post, that doesn't matter, does it? You have to find something to disagree with.

You really are being paranoid. Again, if you think that I have some vendetta against you, it would be wise to just stop replying to my posts since that is going to skew your understanding of what I'm saying.

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-26-2002 07:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
You said he was an 'expert marksman'.

Right, I didn't call him a soldier. Expert marksman doesn't imply someone is a good soldier, or even a member of the military at all. And I stand by my characterization:

quote:
Authorities then learned Malvo had a relationship with Muhammad, a Gulf War Army veteran recognized as an expert marksman.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10...cked/index.html

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Posted by yardie on 10-27-2002 07:03 PM:

Yes we only know of two. Who knows -- there may be more Beltway Sniper or Timothy McVeigh out there just waiting for the right time to strike.

To: KRAMSAUER. You need to have a thicker skin man. I can't believe that you are making Toby get to you like that.

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
So...that's two out of how many...?

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-27-2002 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
You need to have a thicker skin man. I can't believe that you are making Toby get to you like that.

Perhaps, but he exhibits an attitude I've found in no one else on this site. As such I don't feel bad about my statements because with 99% of posters I have no problem.

__________________
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Posted by Toby on 10-28-2002 02:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Right, I didn't call him a soldier.

I didn't say you did. I did.

quote:
Expert marksman doesn't imply someone is a good soldier, or even a member of the military at all.

AAMOF, it does have a specific meaning in this case. You (as well as most reporters) don't seem to understand that 'expert' level in Army marksmanship does not necessarily equate to one being an 'expert marksman'.

quote:
And I stand by my characterization:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10...cked/index.html

Again, "expert marksman" in army parlance does not necessarily equate to 'expert marksman' in civilian parlance. It only means that they shot a certain score in a certain time on a certain date. Nearly _everyone_ acheives 'expert' status.

Posted by Toby on 10-28-2002 02:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Yes we only know of two. Who knows -- there may be more Beltway Sniper or Timothy McVeigh out there just waiting for the right time to strike. [...]

So what do you propose we do about it?

Posted by Toby on 10-28-2002 02:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Perhaps, but he exhibits an attitude I've found in no one else on this site.

You obviously haven't quite figured out my 'attitude' yet, so I think your assessment is premature.

quote:
As such I don't feel bad about my statements because with 99% of posters I have no problem.

I think you have 'problems' with more posters than I do, so...

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