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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-15-2003 01:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
Well, we don't see many of 'em here... probably 'cause it's too hard to type with webbed feet!

Sometimes I just quack myself up!

Ah that is why Mickey DUCKer has such poor typing skills

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Posted by clulup on 05-15-2003 08:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

I think you are really being silly there, or you haven't ever really tried to subdue a female who doesn't want to be subdued. As a former military law enforcement dude I'd have to differ with you on this one. I am woman, hear me roar, etc.

No, I haven't tried to subdue a female yet, and I'm not really planning to. I was more referring to other cultures, or to the past times of our culture(s). I guess some people are quiete good at subdueing their females, take the ruling Wahabites in Saudi Arabia as an example. I wouldn't want them as my friends, but I'm not George (W.) Bush, am I?

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
quote:
Originally posted by clulup
I agree with that - makes life complicated, biologically and culturally, even though most cultures try to make it simple: men rule, no divorce, no infidelity. But, unfortunately, real life is complicated, is it not?


Fortunately that way of thinking is changing in western society.


What exactely do you find fortunate, the change in thinking that life is complicated, or that it is more like "men don't rule, divorce, infidelity", or possibly only parts of that?

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-15-2003 02:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by clulup



What exactely do you find fortunate, the change in thinking that life is complicated, or that it is more like "men don't rule, divorce, infidelity", or possibly only parts of that?


The thinking that life is simple.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-15-2003 05:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
Teaching abstinence only is the furthest thing from individual responsibility. reread the post you quoted.

You said it was "obvious" that "on an individual basis" abstinance was the best form of birth control.

I say that whether or not to have sex is an individual choice if ever there was one. (And no, don't bring up rape, I understand that's different.)

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-15-2003 05:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
I disagree, a man can (theoretically) reproduce with a lot of women at the same time, while when a woman falls pregnant she is 'off the market'.

My Ob/Gyn would disagree with this statement--at least up to a point.

quote:
While pregnant/nursing a woman is (semi) dependant on the man.

Um. I don't even know how to respond to this--I think this is one of the "hypotheticals" you mentioned? Dependant on him for ice cream and pickles?
Given that my salary is 3-4 times my husbands, perhaps I'd better not get pregnant...

quote:
If a woman picks her partner, the 'risk' for her is a lot bigger, a man could bail on a pregnant women, while the woman can't, she is stuck with the kid..

For nine months, anyway.

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-15-2003 05:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
This (as a sidetrack) is also explains the origin of the engagement ring, once a woman has made the 'investment' in a man she needs some sort of downpayment...(of course this is outdated, but the tradition stayed...)

Rats. I thought they were developed to keep y'all from hitting on us in bars when we are out with our friends.

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-15-2003 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
Since men are stronger, they can lock their wifes up in the house while still being active outside of it. Not very fair, but reality.

You are kidding, right? What reality is this? If my husband locked me up in the house, he would be very active all right...in the shower room of whatever jail he got sent to.

Posted by MarkEagle on 05-15-2003 10:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
I thought they were developed to keep y'all from hitting on us in bars when we are out with our friends.
What?... you think we notice things like that?

__________________

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-15-2003 10:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

Dependant on him for ice cream and pickles?


quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

Rats. I thought they were developed to keep y'all from hitting on us in bars when we are out with our friends.


quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

You are kidding, right? What reality is this? If my husband locked me up in the house, he would be very active all right...in the shower room of whatever jail he got sent to.


KC you are a funny lady, I hope your husband appreciates your sense of humor

I'd like to hear from any other ladies out there, do you feel "semi-dependent" on your husband? I know my wife likes to depend on me, but I'm sure she would take umbrage at the suggestion that she couldn't take care of herself just fine in case something happened to me. (Like KC, she made a lot more money than me when we met. I've managed to reverse that, but only by running very fast.)

Since most of the guys I know can't even run a washing machine unless it needs coins to operate, I'm not sure if the replies I've been hearing from some of the guys are supposed to be condescending towards the ladies or not.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by MarkEagle on 05-16-2003 01:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
I'm not sure if the replies I've been hearing from some of the guys are supposed to be condescending towards the ladies or not.
I think there's another factor here, and that would be age. At 43, my views on matters such as these are vastly different from someone in their 20's. Also, I suppose married vs. single might have some impact.

__________________

Posted by ToolkiT on 05-16-2003 02:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

Rats. I thought they were developed to keep y'all from hitting on us in bars when we are out with our friends.

Doesnt work.. men in contrast to women dont check for rings... they'll just try their luck..

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-16-2003 02:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

My Ob/Gyn would disagree with this statement--at least up to a point.

[/b]
Um. I don't even know how to respond to this--I think this is one of the "hypotheticals" you mentioned? Dependant on him for ice cream and pickles?
Given that my salary is 3-4 times my husbands, perhaps I'd better not get pregnant...


For nine months, anyway. [/B]

Let me clarify, when a woman is pregnant and after birth the physical condition makes it hard to have a regulart job.. hence maternity leave..
During that time she is (somewhat) limited in her movements..

I'm all for equality so maybe my choice of words (i.e. dependant) sounds a bit strong, but fact of the matter is that after a few months of falling pregnant and a while after birth women are somehow limited...
Having said that I'm very gratefull that women carry out this hard task, and I feel it is the obligation of men to take care of women when they are in such a condition...

Am I more clear this way?

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-16-2003 11:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
I think there's another factor here, and that would be age. At 43, my views on matters such as these are vastly different from someone in their 20's. Also, I suppose married vs. single might have some impact.


So I'm old now, eh? Scoot closer to me in that wheelchair oldtimer so I can whack you with my walker!

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-16-2003 11:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

Let me clarify, when a woman is pregnant and after birth the physical condition makes it hard to have a regulart job.. hence maternity leave..
During that time she is (somewhat) limited in her movements..

I'm all for equality so maybe my choice of words (i.e. dependant) sounds a bit strong, but fact of the matter is that after a few months of falling pregnant and a while after birth women are somehow limited...
Having said that I'm very gratefull that women carry out this hard task, and I feel it is the obligation of men to take care of women when they are in such a condition...

Am I more clear this way?


You really are clueless about pregnancy. In my experience pregnant women are usually very active (my wife was still blowing glass 8 1/2 months -8 hours a day- into her first pregnancy and she is by no means extraordinary in that regard). They do need to rest about a week after the little suckers pop out, but they are in no way "incapacitated". This, is of course, assuming the pregnancy was uneventful - which most are. Manysingle women figure out how to do this all without the help of a man. I do agree that it's easier for a woman if she has a concerned father helping out, but most things are easier if you have someone helping out.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-16-2003 10:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
KC you are a funny lady, I hope your husband appreciates your sense of humor

Thanks! He seems to. He cracks me up all the time, so I definitely appreciate his.

quote:
Since most of the guys I know can't even run a washing machine unless it needs coins to operate, I'm not sure if the replies I've been hearing from some of the guys are supposed to be condescending towards the ladies or not.

Well, I know my husband and I somewhat "atypical", but he has done the cooking and laundry since we met. However, he was unemployed for two years, so that sort of made sense. Now that he has gone back to work, I am trying to learn how to cook (yikes!) and am doing more around the house.

And just so there's no confusion, he doesn't look like the "cooking type." Unless you would look at him and think he shot a deer or went fishin' and has his bounty on the grill.

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-16-2003 10:09 PM:

well...

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
What?... you think we notice things like that?


quote:
From ToolkT
Doesn't work.. men in contrast to women dont check for rings... they'll just try their luck..



Actually, the joke amongst women (gee, am I revealing secrets...) is that we seem to get *more* attention after we start wearing an engagement ring.

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-16-2003 10:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
Let me clarify, when a woman is pregnant and after birth the physical condition makes it hard to have a regulart job.. hence maternity leave...and I feel it is the obligation of men to take care of women when they are in such a condition...

You mean it's not y'alls obligation to take care of us *all the time*?

Only kidding. I think I understand what you are trying to say, and I think I would agree with the statement that "women who are pregnant are more limited in their physical activity during certain stages of their pregnancy, assuming they want a healthy baby and pregnancy."

So far as the unable to hold a normal job part, one of the associates here was sitting in the courtroom for a hearing, got (morning) sick, leaned over and puked in the trashcan and kept on going.

It's really hard to discuss natural instincts of man v. women in the context of the modern world, as you stated earlier. But as Toby also stated earlier, some of what is often perceived as "just nature" is most likely the result of justification of behavior via blaming nature. (See the previous post about pornography.)

In other words, an individual's right of self-determination (i.e. ability to choose) should in most cases override "urges", whether those urges are from nature (as you think) or from society's justification (as I think).

Of course, I do agree that there are certain urges that can not be gotten rid of or totally ignored(to eat, to sleep, to have sex, to post at VisorCentral) and it then becomes a question of using your self-determination to figure out *when* it is appropriate. Hence teaching abstinance as an option.

If MarkEagle tells his girls that they are not to have sex as long as they live in his house (that their only option is abstinance), I don't have any problem with that just as I wouldn't have a problem with someone telling their kids that they are not to smoke pot/do drugs. OBVIOUSLY, the kids are going to know that there are other options than abstinance, and hopefully if the parenting is being done right (and the problems with premature sex and/or drugs are discussed) then the child would *want* to stay in the parent's house...etc...(all easier said than done, I'm sure)

just my $10.02
KC

Posted by K. Cannon on 05-16-2003 10:33 PM:

Sorry-double post

Posted by MarkEagle on 05-16-2003 11:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
OBVIOUSLY, the kids are going to know that there are other options than abstinance...
Oh boy! Do they ever! I hate to admit this, but I'd bet I could learn a few tricks from these kids today. It's borderline scary.

quote:
...hopefully if the parenting is being done right (and the problems with premature sex and/or drugs are discussed) then the child would *want* to stay in the parent's house...etc...(all easier said than done, I'm sure)
Unfortunately, all you can do as a parent is talk to them, give them all the facts and other relavant information, and hope for the best. I've always maintained that this needs to be done during the "formative" years (5-10), because if you wait until they're 12 or 13, it's too late.

__________________

Posted by MarkEagle on 05-16-2003 11:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
So I'm old now, eh?
Older AND wiser, no?

quote:
Scoot closer to me in that wheelchair oldtimer so I can whack you with my walker!
Careful there, you old geezer... don't make me take out my teeth and throw them at you!

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