VisorCentral.com - PiDirect for MiniJam?

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-- PiDirect for MiniJam? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=16209)

Posted by Swiftshadow on 06-20-2001 05:38 AM:

PiDirect for MiniJam?

I know some people have thrown the idea around, but now that PI has delivered on their PiDirect interface, I wonder if InnoGear would license the technology and fulfill its original promise of getting applications and other data to reside on its multimedia card(s). I know I would definitely buy a MiniJam if it could double as storage/memory expansion. Its not a SixPack (2 pack?? ) but it would definitely increase the value of the MiniJam. So how about it InnoGear? Or maybe PI can go at it alone and offer an "upgrade" package for MiniJam users.

Fare thee well,
Swiftshadow

Posted by EricG on 06-20-2001 05:45 AM:

I'm not knocking you or your idea, but this is about the funniest thing I have read all day..!!!

(As a minijam & memplug owner I would hope this would happen, but I am NOT going to count on it...)

The whole concept of palm data on the Minijam's MMC is dead in the water.. it's about as likely to happen as them raising the Titanic. It would have happened by now if it was ever going to occur. Innogear has no motivation to provide it.

This was the reason I got my memplug, to add that ability that the minijam was supposed to be able to do but never did..

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Posted by ssas on 06-20-2001 07:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by EricG
I'm not knocking you or your idea, but this is about the funniest thing I have read all day..!!!

(As a minijam & memplug owner I would hope this would happen, but I am NOT going to count on it...)

The whole concept of palm data on the Minijam's MMC is dead in the water.. it's about as likely to happen as them raising the Titanic. It would have happened by now if it was ever going to occur. Innogear has no motivation to provide it.

This was the reason I got my memplug, to add that ability that the minijam was supposed to be able to do but never did..

What do you mean in 'concept of palm data on the ...' Isn't it just a storage and we may decide how to use it ? Doesn't Palm 505 use these cards as a memory storage ? I haven't got Minijam and possible I've missed something but if they have an interface for access to the card they may do such applications.
to Swiftshadow: what technology do you mean ? There is no any special technology. It's just a standart PalmOS feature. Handspring is working in the same way, but they do it more elegant. In fact it's very interesting to investigate how is PiDirect working. It's very simple ... But I understand why it's so 'beta'. It's not easy to handle all possible situations with memory. And sometimes third party products are using undocumented features of PalmOS and everything is crashing again...

Posted by ashmed on 06-20-2001 08:57 AM:

If I remember correctly, the Minijam uses a proprietary format for their MMC cards. This is what prevents 3rd party MMC reader/writers from being used with the cards and such slow copying speeds to the MMC. I'm sure having a proprietary format on the MMC cards complicates making a PiDirect program very much.

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Posted by Swiftshadow on 06-20-2001 01:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssas

What do you mean in 'concept of palm data on the ...' Isn't it just a storage and we may decide how to use it ? Doesn't Palm 505 use these cards as a memory storage ? I haven't got Minijam and possible I've missed something but if they have an interface for access to the card they may do such applications.
to Swiftshadow: what technology do you mean ? There is no any special technology. It's just a standart PalmOS feature. Handspring is working in the same way, but they do it more elegant. In fact it's very interesting to investigate how is PiDirect working. It's very simple ... But I understand why it's so 'beta'. It's not easy to handle all possible situations with memory. And sometimes third party products are using undocumented features of PalmOS and everything is crashing again...

Well thats part of the problem. Innogear never provided any interface to the memory cards in the MiniJam and the latest OS that comes with Visors now a days (3.5.2H I believe) does not provide any of these features. So unless InnoGear changes their mind, it won't be coming from them. That's why I was suggesting may PI take a stab at it (charging of course.)

As for the technology in question, I meant software technology not hardware (the technology of course being the PI media access libraries and the PI applications.)

Fare thee well,
Swiftshadow

Posted by ssas on 06-20-2001 06:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Swiftshadow

Well thats part of the problem. Innogear never provided any interface to the memory cards in the MiniJam and the latest OS that comes with Visors now a days (3.5.2H I believe) does not provide any of these features. So unless InnoGear changes their mind, it won't be coming from them. That's why I was suggesting may PI take a stab at it (charging of course.)

As for the technology in question, I meant software technology not hardware (the technology of course being the PI media access libraries and the PI applications.)

Fare thee well,
Swiftshadow

They don't provide an interface at the moment, but they said that will do it in the future.
I can't see any new technology in the PI software. Haven't you seen any TSR program for DOS ? Btw, viruses are working in the same way. There is nothing new. Actually I want to take a look on the specification for VFS. May be it has got something interesting. Unfortunately the time is the most important thing in my life. I never have it enough.

Posted by EricG on 06-20-2001 08:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ashmed
If I remember correctly, the Minijam uses a proprietary format for their MMC cards. This is what prevents 3rd party MMC reader/writers from being used with the cards and such slow copying speeds to the MMC. I'm sure having a proprietary format on the MMC cards complicates making a PiDirect program very much.

ASHMED, you got it, the special format pretty much kills off any hope of PiDirect. I tend to doubt Innogear will publish their special formatting..

(to everyone else)
The only thing you can put on the Minijam's MMC is mp3's (it also appears to look at the actual file, so renaming a JPG to MP3 for example won't work), and interestingly enough, it's only a one way copy, you can not copy stuff back from the MMC to your computer..
Too bad.. what a waste.. would have been nice to have this ability months ago.. Innogear missed the boat on this one.. The makers of the MemmPlug got my $$$ because they could deliver a product as promised.

__________________
"One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no �them� out there. It�s just an awful lot of �us�." -- Douglas Adams

Posted by critic on 06-20-2001 11:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssas

They don't provide an interface at the moment, but they said that will do it in the future.

<spit take> BWAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

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What do you think, Sirs?

Posted by Swiftshadow on 06-21-2001 01:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by EricG

ASHMED, you got it, the special format pretty much kills off any hope of PiDirect. I tend to doubt Innogear will publish their special formatting..

(to everyone else)
The only thing you can put on the Minijam's MMC is mp3's (it also appears to look at the actual file, so renaming a JPG to MP3 for example won't work), and interestingly enough, it's only a one way copy, you can not copy stuff back from the MMC to your computer..
Too bad.. what a waste.. would have been nice to have this ability months ago.. Innogear missed the boat on this one.. The makers of the MemmPlug got my $$$ because they could deliver a product as promised.

Exactly. I was thinking that the Innogear's MiniJam would have made the killer module if you could use it for MP3 and for data storage/memory expansion. It would certainly have gotten my money. If it was a lack of programming resources, I was hoping that now that PI has shown that it is possible, Innogear would license the technology from them. That's of course on the assumption that PI would even license their technology. (PI shouldn't worry about lost sales at least from me, I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my MemPlug CF.)

I wonder if any MiniJam owners out there would pay to get a PI solution for their MiniJams.

Its just a pipe dream I know. InnoGear has been adamant about MiniJam only being used as an MP3 player.

Fare thee well,
Swiftshadow

Posted by Gameboy70 on 06-21-2001 10:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Swiftshadow
If it was a lack of programming resources, I was hoping that now that PI has shown that it is possible, Innogear would license the technology from them.

Innogeared back itself into a corner by devoting programming resources to developing a proprietary file format. If the MiniJam had been released later, the company could've licensed the Kopsis software (also proprietary, but used widely) and been on equal footing with other CF adaptors.

Interestingly, I remember reading an interview with Innogear's Bob Fullerton where he was asked about doing a straight MMC storage module, sans MP3 player, which would've been the first MemPlug-type module. He said that the because the read/write technology requires essentially the same components, it wouldn't be much cheaper than the MiniJam.

Personally, I can't imagine anyone with a 64MB MMC having enough restraint to leave more than a couple of megs of memory available on the card for anything other than MP3s. And if I remember correctly, only OS 3.5.2 supports the MP3 file format, so a PiDirect approach, for MP3s at least, would only be viable for the Memory Stick.

Posted by ssas on 06-21-2001 10:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by EricG

ASHMED, you got it, the special format pretty much kills off any hope of PiDirect. I tend to doubt Innogear will publish their special formatting..

(to everyone else)
The only thing you can put on the Minijam's MMC is mp3's (it also appears to look at the actual file, so renaming a JPG to MP3 for example won't work), and interestingly enough, it's only a one way copy, you can not copy stuff back from the MMC to your computer..
Too bad.. what a waste.. would have been nice to have this ability months ago.. Innogear missed the boat on this one.. The makers of the MemmPlug got my $$$ because they could deliver a product as promised.

What are both of you talking about ??? What is the difference between special format and any public one ??? There is only one difference : their software supports only ONE type of information at the moment. I repeat : it's not a hardware problem, but software issue. They created a MP3 PLAYER and did it very well.

Posted by Dave Watkins on 06-21-2001 11:56 AM:

Friends,

This is a interesting thread. You may wish to visit the below listed site to see how the MiniJam is growing up.

http://www.audiointelligence.com

__________________
D. Watkins
Please rescue a Greyhound

Posted by EricG on 06-27-2001 06:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Watkins
Friends,

This is a interesting thread. You may wish to visit the below listed site to see how the MiniJam is growing up.

http://www.audiointelligence.com

if this is growing up, then the minijam is stunted.

This is nothing new.. The audio files are in mp3, and the text version has to be stored in the visors memory, not on the mmc card.

http://www.audiointelligence.com is just using the standard mp3 format.

__________________
"One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no �them� out there. It�s just an awful lot of �us�." -- Douglas Adams

Posted by EricG on 06-27-2001 06:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ssas

What are both of you talking about ??? What is the difference between special format and any public one ??? There is only one difference : their software supports only ONE type of information at the moment. I repeat : it's not a hardware problem, but software issue. They created a MP3 PLAYER and did it very well.

There is only one MMC file system format in use by the MiniJam, their own private one, MJFS (minijam file system format).. outside of the MiniJam, in the real world, the rest of the world uses the FAT file system (aka DOS), (I guess you could call it a public format now).. Additionally, Innogear's software only supports one way copying of data (specifically MP3's) to their MJFS formatted MMC cards but you can not copy anything from the MMC card back to your computer, (you can't even with the SPEEDLOADER). You are quite correct, it is a software issue, one they could easily fix but choose not to, for reasons only known to them.

The Minijam was originally promised to have the ability to utilize the MMC card (where the mp3's are stored now) to store palm programs and palm data there (almost exactly like the way the memplug works), also another missing feature yet to be delivered on was the ability to use the minijam's built in LED as a silent alarm. These features are currently missing in action on the MiniJam.

These features were to be added "real soon" - hahahahahaha.

don't mistake my comments for bashing, I am merely repeating what was promised from Innogear..

__________________
"One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no �them� out there. It�s just an awful lot of �us�." -- Douglas Adams

Posted by Stanward on 06-27-2001 06:28 AM:

Innogear and their woes

Yes, I agree, the Minijam is almost dead in the water with their proprietary format. If they used a DOS format to drag and drop songs, that would have enabled them to be an actual "MemPlug." Also, I don't know if any of you noticed, but Rockford Fosgate has an 8-MMC MP3 Changer that uses MMC cards as well. I bought the MiniJam in hopes of transferring my cards from my PDA to the MP3 Changer in the car.

I got some news out that Innogear has changed their 6-pack to a 4-pack but my inside source does not know what features have been removed.

Innogear also is coming out with their new MP3 player for the Handspring, but that is all I can disclose at this point.

Stan

Posted by Matthew Nichols on 06-27-2001 07:34 PM:

Don't knock Innogear for using a special format to encode MP3s, this has been discussed before and most MP3 players do it. For example, my Rio 500 formats its SmartMedia in its own format which makes it impossible to use with my MemPlug.

That still doesn't lift the blame for not delivering on what was promised but at least don't blame it on the formatting of the card.

__________________
Matt Nichols
[email protected]

Posted by Gameboy70 on 06-28-2001 12:08 AM:

Matthew Nichols wrote:
For example, my Rio 500 formats its SmartMedia in its own format which makes it impossible to use with my MemPlug.

The difference is that the Rio was never designed with the intention of its storage media interoperating with other MP3 players or, more to the point, the Visor.

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Eye of Gameboy

Posted by Matthew Nichols on 06-28-2001 02:08 AM:

I doubt the MiniJam was designed to operate with other MP3 players either. I'm simply stating that don't blame it on their formatting, almost all MP3 players use a similar design.

Blame it on Innogear's lack of support, etc... I think theres no reason why a PRC or PDB needs to be stored differently than an MP3, a special format shouldn't alter its ability any bit - except maybe requiring you to use the same program to load apps as you do mp3.

__________________
Matt Nichols
[email protected]

Posted by dkessler on 06-28-2001 02:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Nichols
Don't knock Innogear for using a special format to encode MP3s, this has been discussed before and most MP3 players do it. For example, my Rio 500 formats its SmartMedia in its own format which makes it impossible to use with my MemPlug.

The original Rio not only used its own format, it obliterated the existing format so badly that many devices (including digital cameras and other MP3 players) couldn't even re-format the card!

Of course the reason that MiniJam and all these other MP3 players use their own formats is because writing MS-DOS compatible filesystem software is hard (i.e. expensive) and it makes the firmware for the MP3 player much larger. When you're trying to squeeze software into a microcontroller or DSP, every byte counts!

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<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

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