VisorCentral.com - Universal Health Coverage: Side-by-Side

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-21-2003 01:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
And here's something interesting about healthcare from one of my AvantGo channels:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/914199.asp

Thanks for the link Toby, that does shed some light on the issue.

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by Yorick on 05-21-2003 03:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE STH
No...it was in general. But as talented as you are with graphics, I could easily see you doing very well

people keep telling me that. I don't understand why the paper and graphics co's won't return my calls.

I wish I could spend less time on looking for work and more on building a protfolio to show off what I can do.

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
As Yorick said, he felt he needed a change. Hopefully, he knew the risks before he took the plunge. I'm sure he knows that he's made his bed, so now he has to sleep in it. It seems to me that he's not looking for any handouts, but perhaps maybe just a hand up... and there's a huge difference between the two!

honestly it looked like less risk than it turned out to be. In hindsight if I'd taken classes at the college closer to home (which would have reduced the temptation to spend in all the pretty stores in the city) and kept working I think I'd've been happier.
either way I *am* trying my best. i wouldn't even have sought medical care except it became an emergency.

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
I've always followed a simple saying I saw as a youngster (I even used it as the quote in my High School yearbook): The future belongs to those still willing to work and get their hands dirty.

wise words.

Posted by yardie on 05-21-2003 04:37 AM:

You miss the point as always. A voucher system wih ghettoize the school system with "have" and "have not" institutions. Who do you think will end up in the have not institutions?

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Uh, where in school voucher programs do they repeal the Constitution?

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Posted by yardie on 05-21-2003 04:43 AM:

I think your arguement is flawed. You are lumping every Joe Shmoe together as one. There are lots of people that are looking for that bug break. They are people that are ashamed of being on welfare, but have not other choice at the moment. I think the people that stay home and watch soap opera and expect to get free money in the mail is in the minority of people who genuinely need assistance.

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE STH

*** Keep in mind that I am referring to honorable people that produce a viable commodity or service and back it up to the best of their ability. They make no excuses and take full responsibility for their actions and repercussions. That in no way is offered as a defense for those that try to cheat an honorable profession by shortcuts, lies and innuendo like the players in the Enron debacle. Remember ~ there were surely honorable people at Enron putting forth their best efforts daily. They learned that those that were rewarded accumulated wealth for the wrong reasons. The sad part is that dishonorable people were able to fleece honorable people of their life�s rewards.

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Posted by yardie on 05-21-2003 04:49 AM:

Some may argue that it is the wealthy that are the leechers. How does the wealthy become wealthy? While I do not think it is a sin to create well, I do believe that it is a sin to keep the wealth all to yourself. When a wealthy person dies, do you think he/she can carry the wealth with them? What do you think would happen in a society where there is a few filthy rich and a massive poor?

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE STH
First define "We" and I am totally at odds with the rest of the statement. WHY should the wealthy share? If they created and produced and earned why should they give to the leechers? Moreover, what right do the moochers have to partake in the wealth of those that actually earned wealth with either their thoughts or actions? Is it a sin to produce wealth(of any size) or is the sinner the person that leeches off the efforts of others? Seems real clear to me.

__________________
My life is in my Treo... Where is yours?

Posted by ToolkiT on 05-21-2003 05:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Some may argue that it is the wealthy that are the leechers. How does the wealthy become wealthy? While I do not think it is a sin to create well, I do believe that it is a sin to keep the wealth all to yourself. When a wealthy person dies, do you think he/she can carry the wealth with them? What do you think would happen in a society where there is a few filthy rich and a massive poor?

Like the bleus singer Robbert Cray sang: 'Share what you got, keep what you need'..

But that is harder than it sounds... Personally I should share more too... but man is gready by nature I'm afraid..

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-21-2003 07:51 AM:

just saw this:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2...3196616720.html

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Posted by clulup on 05-21-2003 09:02 AM:

Incapable of health insurance?

quote:
Originally posted by MarkEagle
Sure it does. It proves she has the gusto to go out and do what she needs to do to be successful. She (or anyone for that matter) doesn't need to please the masses. She only has to be able to look at herself in the mirror and feel self-respect for herself and her efforts.

Isn't that what overcoming discrimination (of any sort) is all about? I'm sure she's had to work at honing those attributes since they don't tend to come without at least a little effort. I call it the Little Train That Could mentality: I think I can, I think I can, I know I can, I know I can...

It's also possible that as a man she'd be working twice as hard for half as much. She (and we) will never know... I realize that the statistics say women work harder for less than their male counterparts, but as with most things, I think they're painted with pretty broad strokes. Remember, there's exceptions to every rule.

As Yorick said, he felt he needed a change. Hopefully, he knew the risks before he took the plunge. I'm sure he knows that he's made his bed, so now he has to sleep in it. It seems to me that he's not looking for any handouts, but perhaps maybe just a hand up... and there's a huge difference between the two!

I've always followed a simple saying I saw as a youngster (I even used it as the quote in my High School yearbook): The future belongs to those still willing to work and get their hands dirty.

Get their hands dirty? Do dirty things? Or do you mean farming? (just kidding, ok?)

Life is not that easy. Not everybody has the same possibilities: E.g. intelligence is strongly heritable, other physical factors (looks, size, energy, etc.) also cannot be influenced by the individual. Many emotional aspects depend a lot on the social environment: some children are constantly neglected while both parents work, are drunk, or whatever. You would not say that it is the fault of such children to grow up in a disadvantageous environment and end up with limited capabilities, both emotional and intellectual?

There is no way you can claim that every individual has the same chance to lead the life he or she wants. Of course your "I think I can, I know I can" mentality is a great thing, but it is the product of advantageous nature and careful nurture, and both nature and nurture are not influenced by the individual.

Of course we should always encourage individual responsibility, but this responsibility has it's limits.

And since this thread started about health: Few people are responsible for the leukaemia of their children, the breast cancer they get, or also many other diseases that cost a fortune. It can hit everybody, it has nothing to do with individual responsibility. Therefore, health insurance for everybody is by far the best and most fair way to share those risks. I still can't understand why the US seem to be incapable of installing such a system.

Posted by Toby on 05-21-2003 11:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
You miss the point as always. A voucher system wih ghettoize the school system with "have" and "have not" institutions. Who do you think will end up in the have not institutions?

No one. That's what scares many in the public school system the most.

Posted by Toby on 05-21-2003 11:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
just saw this:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2...3196616720.html

I think they're both being disingenuous. If they don't want the money, they're free to give it to charity. If Buffett is so concerned about his secretary, he can give her the money and let her go start her own business somewhere. That's the whole point of the Bushie philosophy, give more money back to the people who actually invest heavily in financing commerce so they'll have more to invest in commerce.

Posted by BobbyMike on 05-21-2003 01:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
You miss the point as always. A voucher system wih ghettoize the school system with "have" and "have not" institutions. Who do you think will end up in the have not institutions?

Do you have proof of this? Or is this an opinion? Right now our public school system is already "ghettoized" with people moving to get into certain school districts and even lying about their addresses so that their kids can attend better schools.

Right now the Mayor of DC has given up on the normal liberal (he's a Dem) agenda vis-a-vis education and is supporting school vouchers because he sees no other way for kids to get a decent education in his town. What do you know that he doesn't?

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by MIKE STH on 05-21-2003 01:37 PM:

So you advocate rewarding non-production and punishing production? Where will that ultimately leave you?

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Some may argue that it is the wealthy that are the leeches.

I would strongly disagree! In what twisted way can you rationalize that a wealthy, productive individual is a leech? Again, they produce and consume they are not strictly consumers

quote:
How does the wealthy become wealthy? [/B]

Without acknowledging inheritance and other manners and focusing on actually providing a service or a product, they become wealthy through their efforts.

quote:
[i]While I do not think it is a sin to create well, I do believe that it is a sin to keep the wealth all to yourself. [/B]

Again, I disagree. You should have the option to do with your wealth what you chose. If you want to fund charities and grants, that would be YOUR choice, whereas a directive from the government of from those that only consume shows nothing but jealousy and a will to perpetuate the cycle of rewarding those that do nothing.

quote:
[i]When a wealthy person dies, do you think he/she can carry the wealth with them? [/B]

No, but they should certainly be able to chose where it goes. There is no rationalization for taxes to be levied on income while it is made and again on the same taxed dollars upon your/his/her death. That's multiple taxation on the same earned income. Again, who are we penalizing?

quote:
[i]What do you think would happen in a society where there is a few filthy rich and a massive poor? [/B]

The 'poor' [i]always have the opportunity to rise. It is a matter of applying oneself. Hell, sell dirt...even the filthy rich need dirt for their palatial lawns. The point is to do something instead of sitting back and lamenting your station and not being productive.

__________________
"Stupid Handspring."

Posted by MIKE STH on 05-21-2003 01:39 PM:

Right on Toby!

Yet another bloated 'project' gone awry...

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
No one. That's what scares many in the public school system the most.

__________________
"Stupid Handspring."

Posted by MIKE STH on 05-21-2003 01:42 PM:

Re: Incapable of health insurance?

quote:
Originally posted by clulup

Of course we should always encourage individual responsibility, but this responsibility has it's limits.

Why would you ever want to limit a person's accountability for their actions? Would you feel the same if it was your family member that was killed by the disadvantaged youth?

__________________
"Stupid Handspring."

Posted by MIKE STH on 05-21-2003 01:47 PM:

Hence the problem. Generated wealth is based upon action, not looking or waiting...

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I think your arguement is flawed. You are lumping every Joe Shmoe together as one. There are lots of people that are looking for that big break.

__________________
"Stupid Handspring."

Posted by KRamsauer on 05-21-2003 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
You miss the point as always. A voucher system wih ghettoize the school system with "have" and "have not" institutions. Who do you think will end up in the have not institutions?

Nice to see you're resorting to name-calling. As far as I can tell, vouchers will do exactly the opposite since it is now people with money can go to private schools.

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Posted by KRamsauer on 05-21-2003 03:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Some may argue that it is the wealthy that are the leechers. How does the wealthy become wealthy? While I do not think it is a sin to create well, I do believe that it is a sin to keep the wealth all to yourself. When a wealthy person dies, do you think he/she can carry the wealth with them? What do you think would happen in a society where there is a few filthy rich and a massive poor?

You often tend to see a reversal of tendencies when someone becomes "filthy rich." That is, those extremely well off (Gates, Buffet, Soros, Rockefeller, Carnegie) tend to give a lot of their money away. The arguments for allowing continuation of wealth apply when someone works a lifetime and wants to pass on a hefty (but by no means obscene) amount to their kids, say a million bucks. Why society is entitled to some-most-all, whatever, portion of that is beyond me.

This of course doesn't even touch on the biggest incentive to have an upper class: they can funnel money to promising ventures that drive growth going forward. The poor cannot fund new ideas, the middle class can do so only in aggregate, and the government is not efficient at it because of the lack of profit motive.

The unfortunate (for some, including a few in this forum) fact is that a society that wants to advance through market forces needs capital pools controlled by people willing to make large, speculative bets.

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Posted by MIKE STH on 05-21-2003 06:37 PM:

Excellent

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
that a society that wants to advance through market forces needs capital pools controlled by people willing to make large, speculative bets.

__________________
"Stupid Handspring."

Posted by clulup on 05-22-2003 10:15 AM:

Re: Re: Incapable of health insurance?

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE STH

Why would you ever want to limit a person's accountability for their actions? Would you feel the same if it was your family member that was killed by the disadvantaged youth?

In many cases it is not the fault of the individual if he or she does not have the capability of leading a happy and productive life. That's a fact. The more lucky ones (with a better genetic predisposition, more love from their parents, better education, etc. - like most of us) should not forget this and also take care of the less lucky ones.

Of course we still have to protect society from those who harm innocent members of it. But instead of focusing on punishment (as you seem to suggest), we should focus on making sure there are less disadvantaged youth in the future, for example.

Posted by MIKE STH on 05-22-2003 03:32 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Incapable of health insurance?

What the less advantaged need to learn is the satisfaction of a job well done not the reward for doing nothing. Many people will go to greater lengths to offer excuses than to perform in the first place.

Reward productivity and offer no reward for those that chose not to contribute.

quote:
Originally posted by clulup
we should focus on making sure there are less disadvantaged youth in the future, for example.

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