VisorCentral.com - The Terrorists win either way

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Posted by Toby on 09-21-2001 07:55 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
Yeah, I looked at Leatherman's web page and all 10 models have at least one knife blade. I have the Super Tool, so it has two. I found the Tool Tales page interesting, how people used a Leatherman tool in an emergency situation, including one potential plane crash.

I also thought it ironic that the current tool tale took place in Logan Airport in Boston.

Posted by Soul Raven on 09-21-2001 08:18 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
Your points are well-made (very well-made...are you a writer?...) and I even agree with some of them.

No, I am not (that is to say, I don't write as a profession or to be "published", all of us that post here are technically 'writers'), but I try to write well, and I take your words as a compliment. Thank you. It's nice to hear that from someone whose opinions I respect (and I even agree with you sometimes, too.

)

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
I hate to say this, but I am glad I don't have to make the decision.

I am grateful that I am not in charge every day, and I am not ashamed to say it. I do not know how anyone could ever think, "America would be so much better if I was in charge." I think that anyone who aspires to be a leader deserves it.

Something else that crossed my mind: where are all the pundits for the separatation of church and state? They have spent many years and a lot of money in court cases making sure that we can't pray in schools or celebrate Christmas. Now the President, who for all intents and purposes is the State, has asked God to bless America and asked Americans to pray for us as a country and for those touched so deeply by the loss of loved ones recently. Where is the criticism now? <sarcasm>Isn't your message as important now as it has ever been?</sarcasm>

__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

Posted by K. Cannon on 09-21-2001 08:52 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
Where is the criticism now? <sarcasm>Isn't your message as important now as it has ever been?</sarcasm>

Gone With The Wind, just like those feminists who said it was always sexual harassment when a superior sleeps with a subordinate were strangely silent during the Lewinsky scandal...oops...oops, did I type that??? <GD&R>...oops

Seriously, harder to argue separation of church and state here because of presumed religious reasoning (at least partially) behind the attack. Notice the difference between establishment of official STATE RELIGION and all types of faiths being encouraged to pray to their greater power. I was glad to see Bush's visit to the mosque last week.

Posted by Yorick on 09-22-2001 02:17 AM:

Some interesting commentary on religion relating to the current crisis can be found here, at least until 9/26/01:
http://www.metroland.net/sct_columns.html#reckonings

__________________
The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.

Posted by BobbyMike on 09-24-2001 01:45 AM:

I'm glad to see that most of us posting seem to think that it's important to solve the problem instead of whacking anybody different with a big stick. I'm saddened, but not shocked, by the reports of Americans of Arabic descent being hurt and/or threatened.
My comment on internal passports was meant to be silly. One of the nice things about our country is the amount of freedom we have to go almost anywhere in our own borders without governmental control.
I agree that much harm has been done in the past by people proclaiming themselves Christians (Muslim, Jewish, etc.) and that can't be changed, what can be changed is those of us who are true believers (in our respective faiths)can act in ways that are actually in step with what we are preaching (as has been said before) and stop the hatred.
I will protect anyone who I see as weak, or in need of help. I don't hate those who did this. I think they were misguided and are probably surprised at where they are now (as are many who have killed in the name of their faith).
Gotta go... hot pizza! Finish later....

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by Toby on 09-24-2001 02:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] My comment on internal passports was meant to be silly. One of the nice things about our country is the amount of freedom we have to go almost anywhere in our own borders without governmental control.[...]

It certainly may have been meant as silly, but the problem is that there are certainly factions within our government taking such proposals _very_ seriously. After the first WTC bombing and the OKC bombing, these factions were calling for drastic and potentially intrusive measures to 'protect our freedoms'. Now this might be used as an "I told you so" moment in an attempt to pass such measures again.

As a side note, the new 'security' measures seem to be thought up by morons. Supposedly Al Roker was giving a lecture at a school somewhere in New York state, and his disposable razors and some other item were confiscated by security. He promptly walked into a shop on the 'secure' side of the checkpoint and purchased the exact same items.

Posted by homer on 09-24-2001 03:29 PM:

quote:
As a side note, the new 'security' measures seem to be thought up by morons.

I agree. Only a Moron would assume that the only way to terrorize this country is to hijack a plane and only a Moron would assume that banning steak knifes and shaving kits will actually reduce the chances of that happening.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by mcristia on 09-24-2001 06:04 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
.... I can't speak for the people in my town, my co-workers, even members of my own family, but I know for me, I will do what I can to stop violence around me, to stop hate.

Are you with me?

SoulRaven,

Here are some examples of a personal, family, or school Pledge of Non-Violence, which reflect your comment above:

"In signing this pledge for non-violence, I recognize that I have responsibilities to myself and to all others. In my attempts to discover my own purpose, I will remember that every life has a purpose. I am not alone on this earth. It is through understanding others that we learn to know ourselves. I will never intentionally use words to make others feel isolated and I will do my best to stop the cruel words of others. I will hold out my hand as a friend, not use my mouth as a weapon. Nor will I ever intentionally do physical harm to another. I do not wish it for me, and I do not want it for anyone else. Violence with weapons kills the body. Violence with words kills the soul.

I will remember that asking for help is not a sign of weakness or a sign that I am not "cool". It takes more courage to say, "I need help," than to pretend I don't. I am responsible for me and for every decision I make. I can not blame anyone or anything for my choices. If I do, I must credit them with all of my successes, as well as my failures. If I want credit for my successes, then I must be accountable for my own failures. I understand that being accountable means accepting that there may be unpleasant consequences for the poor choices I may make. That doesn't mean I am a lesser person as long as I strive to be the best "me" I can be. If I am willing to judge others, then I must be prepared to be misjudged by them. It is self-respect and the respect I show others that will determine how others perceive me.

When I walk into the front door of my place of learning, whether it be school, church or synagogue, I will remember why I am there. I am not there to flaunt belongings. I am not there to demean teachers or other students. I will see others with my newly opened eyes. I will embrace others with my newly opened heart. I will look at a face I hadn't noticed before and offer a smile. After all, I am there to learn how and why we are connected.

Peace begins with me! Hopefully, it will be contagious!"

----
I promise that:

I will do my best to refrain from participating in acts of violence in my home, in my school, and in my neighborhood.

I also promise to stand with other human beings who are treated unfairly.

By doing this I make known How Special I Am.

I will remember that I want to live in a peaceful world, and by taking this pledge I will be doing my part to achieve this goal.

----
Making peace must start within ourselves. I commit myself to become, with God's help, a nonviolent and peaceable person.

To respect myself, to affirm others and to avoid un-caring criticism, hateful words, physical attacks and self-destructive behavior.

To share my feelings honestly, to look for safe ways to express my anger and to work at solving problems peacefully.

To listen carefully to one another, especially those who disagree with me, and to consider others' feelings and needs rather than insisting on having my own way.

To apologize and make amends when I have hurt another, to forgive others and to keep from holding grudges.

To treat the environment and all living things, including our pets, with respect and care.

To select entertainment and toys that support healthy values and to avoid entertainment that makes violence look exciting, funny or acceptable.

To challenge violence in all its forms whenever I encounter it, whether at home, at school, at work, at church or in the community and to stand with others who are treated unfairly.

This is my pledge. These are my goals. I will check myself on what I have pledged once a month for the next twelve months so that I can help myself and others become more peaceable people

__________________
MANY BLESSINGS!
Peace and Every Good!

Michael W. Cristiani
[email protected]

Posted by agraham999 on 09-25-2001 12:33 AM:

Apparently the Taliban are the worst liars in the world. I love today how we have a document faxed from Osama to the Taliban and later released to the rest of the world. Anyone else remember their rhetoric not so long ago when they SWORE to the world he couldn't have orchestrated this...because they had taken away his satellite phones, faxes, computers, etc?

Apparently what they meant was they took away his fax paper...

Remember how they don't know his location...someone tell them to check the top of that fax for the phone number.

Posted by agraham999 on 09-25-2001 12:54 AM:

BTW...I'm right here...

If you haven't been able to find the supporters of the separation of church and state...I'm right here...still support it...but I think you'll find that all folks who believe in it are being respectful of the nations need to mourn...and that we all agree that this isn't the time for political rhetoric.

Keep in mind that a lot of people who support it are religious...and I ESPECIALLY support it not because of personal religious beliefs...but the beliefs of others. Let's keep in mind, that until just recently, since the gov't was primarily made up of Christians whose idea of religious tolerance was the policy of ignoring other religions. Sure they exist...but have a much smaller lobby.

Do I believe on God? Yes. Do I believe in religion? No. I think the true benefit in the seperation of church and state is in preserving respect for all faiths and those who don't belong to any particular faith. I think this tenant is more important now than ever...by keeping Jesus or Mohammad out of gov't, we ensure that there is no biased slant in govn't.

One other quick item. I take great offense to the fact that people assume because I don't follow a specific faith...or that other people don't follow a religion or a religion outside of Christianity...that we don't have morals or that our children grow up without good morals. I've heard this a lot. I have great morals...I know the difference between good and bad...and i don't need a faith to know that murder or theft is something I shouldn't do.

Let's learn to be tolerant of all people...including those feminists. The door swings both ways...and I understand that to have a strong dialogue...all sides must be prepared to listen.

__________________
I saw that everyone else had a signature and I felt left out, so here is mine.

Posted by MarkEagle on 09-25-2001 01:02 AM:

Re: BTW...I'm right here...

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
all sides must be prepared to listen

That's the biggest problem that needs to be overcome. It not only applies to the current happenings in the world, but just about every major societal problem could be better handled if people took the time to listen.

__________________

God bless America, my home sweet home...

Posted by Yorick on 09-25-2001 04:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
today how we have a document faxed from Osama to the Taliban and later released to the rest of the world.

um, what? where'd you hear that? I didn't hear that. Did I miss something? (what else is new ...)

__________________
The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.

Posted by Toby on 09-25-2001 02:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

um, what? where'd you hear that? I didn't hear that. Did I miss something? (what else is new ...)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/633244.asp

Posted by sowens on 09-25-2001 03:04 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
I am grateful that I am not in charge every day, and I am not ashamed to say it. I do not know how anyone could ever think, "America would be so much better if I was in charge." I think that anyone who aspires to be a leader deserves it.

Um, didn't Hitler aspire to lead the German people?

Not a flame. Just a cautionary statement against generalizations.

__________________
It's gotta be weather balloons. It's always weather balloons. Big, fiery, exploding weather balloons.
-- ComaVN (from Slashdot)

Posted by homer on 09-25-2001 03:29 PM:

The president isn't necessarily a leader in the same sense that a King would be. A lot of what he does is more along the lines of spokesperson.

As to whether or not Bush deserved to be president, well, that's a whole other argument...

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by Yorick on 09-25-2001 03:35 PM:

Thanks, Toby.
The report is undated (poor journalism, if ya ask me, or at least poor record-keeping).
I question only because Adam's post and that story are the only info I've seen on this at all. I had Headline News on for an hour after seeing that and nothing was mentioned.

__________________
The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.

Posted by K. Cannon on 09-25-2001 03:36 PM:

I just got this and hadn't seen it before and felt that it somehow fit into this thread:

"As the soot and dirt and ash rained down,
We became one color.
As we carried each other down the stairs of the
burning building
We became one class.
As we lit candles of waiting and hope
We became one generation.
As the firefighters and police officers fought their
way into the
inferno
We became one gender.
As we fell to our knees in prayer for strength,
We became one faith.
As we whispered or shouted words of encouragement,
We spoke one language.
As we gave our blood in lines a mile long,
We became one body.
As we mourned together the great loss
We became one family.
As we cried tears of grief and loss
We became one soul.
As we retell with pride of the sacrifice of heros
We become one people.

We are
One color
One class
One generation
One gender
One faith
One language
One body
One family
One soul
One people

We are The Power of One.
We are United.
We are America.

Posted by Soul Raven on 09-25-2001 03:52 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by sowens
Um, didn't Hitler aspire to lead the German people?

Well, while I admit I was referring to those who want to be in charge deserving all the headaches and stress that are associated with leadership, I think the statement still applies. Hitler did aspire to lead the German people (and everyone else on the planet), and I think he got exactly what he deserved...defeated in battle, killed, and villified throughout history. The word "nazi" is practically and adjective now for someone who is unjustly oppressive.

__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

Posted by Toby on 09-25-2001 06:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
Thanks, Toby.
The report is undated (poor journalism, if ya ask me, or at least poor record-keeping).

I agree, but it's from yesterday.

quote:
I question only because Adam's post and that story are the only info I've seen on this at all. I had Headline News on for an hour after seeing that and nothing was mentioned.

Because it's 'old news' at this point. It was 'headline news' yesterday. Today, it's 'backstory' at best. Welcome to the 'information' age. blech. :�

Posted by sowens on 09-25-2001 06:56 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rant

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
Well, while I admit I was referring to those who want to be in charge deserving all the headaches and stress that are associated with leadership, I think the statement still applies. Hitler did aspire to lead the German people (and everyone else on the planet), and I think he got exactly what he deserved...defeated in battle, killed, and villified throughout history. The word "nazi" is practically and adjective now for someone who is unjustly oppressive.

While I agree with you about Hitler's fate, I'm not sure all the ramifications of my original statement came through. The word deserving has a similar connotation in modern American English as nazi does, especially combined with such negative words as stress and headache. The headaches are just part of the responsibility of leadership, and if good people aren't willing to take on that responsibility, then someone will. Unfortunately, that someone isn't necessarily the most deserving (in the good sense of the word).

__________________
It's gotta be weather balloons. It's always weather balloons. Big, fiery, exploding weather balloons.
-- ComaVN (from Slashdot)

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