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-- Do Visor's Buttons have a cheaper feel? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=112)

I too am on the fence about whether to get a Visor or a Palm Vx. One concern I have is how durable the Visor is. I am also concerned about the "negative" article written about the visor that complained of a "brittle" feel to it. And what about the buttons? I know they are using the bubble snap buttons unlike the palm. Does this give the Visor a cheaper feel?

On the contrary, a couple of articles that are referenced on this board have said that the new buttons have a "more tactile feel." That they were more satifsfied with the buttons, becasue they let the user know that the button had actuated. I am too lazy to look them up, but they were right off the front page of this board.

I think Dan Briody just wanted something to carp about. If you read his article you will spot a number of rather illogical statements as well as some conclusions that are just plain bizarre. Dan really didn't like the Visor for some reason, and he massaged reality to fit his perceptions of it. The Visor might have problems, but I wouldn't trust Dan to spot them. (since he missed the most important ones, IMHO) For more info on this check out the "first negative visor article thread".

No, I think Berg has a good question here. Anyone remember the old Atari joysticks? They used a type of bubble snap button on the 8 points of contact inside the stick. I don't know if these are similar to the buttons on the Visor--they sound similar--but what I do know is they wore out eventually. (And if you were an addict like me, you went through a joystick every 6 months).

It's a valid question, and one I asked myself immediately upon reading about the different buttons. Sure they have a nice tactile click, but as a result, do they last as long?

Hey Mic (from SFPUG), is there something in your agreement that forbids you from cracking that Visor open? Can you tell us or perhaps show us what the innards look like?

[This message has been edited by Jackal (edited 09-28-1999).]

Jackal,

The HP48GX - a Hewlett Packard calculator uses a tactile click button. The HP48GX is the highest quality manufactured calculator I have ever used. I really like the feel and response I receive when using the buttons.
So, if Handspring uses similar technology, I'm not too worried...

Fine Gene, but the active word in your statement is "IF". HP's been making calculators since long before Mr Hawkins dreamt up the original Palm. If Jeff Hawkins got it right, then the buttons are modeled after someone like HP. If he didn't the first time around, then there may be a surprise in store for folks. One reason why I'm not ordering a Visor before I can actually see and handle the thing like in NYC at the Fall Internet show. Caveat emptor.

Jackal, the Pen Computing review of the Visor not only describes the buttons but also includes a photo of the button piece itself, after removal from the Visor.

Thank you for jogging my memory...I knew I had seen them somewhere. This is my point, just by examining the picture in the article (it's here if you'd like to follow my point: http://www.pencomputing.com/palm/Reviews/visor1.html ) the bubble snap buttons displayed appear identical to the bubble snap buttons on the Atari joysticks.

That's why I wonder about their durabiliity. If someone can prove otherwise before I can actually get my hands on a device, I would prefer to be wrong. Still, the point, for me, remains a valid one.

Jackal, I doubt Handspring went and reinvented the wheel as far as buttons go. Atari buttons wore out b/c they were made ages ago. Technology today is just a wee bit better. A large portion of all buttons, and most of the ones that 'click' use this kind of button. Sure, they'll wear out some day, but they are generally rated something like 5 million cycles. That's a lot of button pressing.

Okay look, I'm an engineer at heart. I tear things apart to see how and why they work or don't. So while I agree with you that HS probably didn't reinvent the wheel, they have changed the infrastructure of the button mechanism from the original Pilot.

Due to my experiential nature, until someone can say, here's the manufacturer of the bubble snap and it's used by X other products, I won't be satisfied. For the technically minded out there, the Palm has undergone such scrutiny by multiple independent engineers, many of whom had a real problem with the Palm III scroll button. These folks posted their pictures and thoughts on their Palm devoted websites. I'm just asking for the same scrutiny which most of you probably don't care about. But some of us do.

So, you change the button, Jeff Hawkins, I'm going to ask, did you get it right this time?

[This message has been edited by Jackal (edited 09-28-1999).]

Jackal,

Maybe you should also worry about the stylus holder. Jeff apparently added some sort of sponge or something in the attempt to try to get the perfect fit for the stylus.

His response on performance..
paraphrased ... We won't know until they've been used for awhile..

Gene:

Can you read my mind?

Actually, that is the other problematic point of the design. Hawkins himself admits that he shudders every time he has to sit down and design the stylus and the holder. So, yes, it is one of the other items on my list of things to kick around when I get my grubby little hands on the device.

I'm sorry if it upsets folks to hear someone think critically about about the Visor, but this is exactly the kind of questioning that leads to improvements in the design.

True, as an engineer type myself, I worried about the metal snap buttons. However I noticed one thing with my friends that have palms. They don't use the buttons hardly at all. Now this may just be my lack of experience with palms, the visor will be my first, but I wonder just how much people use those buttons? Also, the distance the Atari joystick buttons had to travel to actuate was fairly large wasn't it? The distance the visor buttons travel is hardly anything (from visual of the innerds pic) so I wouldn't worry so much about metal fatige on them. I do however think that the rubber pads on the palm would last longer. But so what if the visor buttons wear our after 6 years, by then I probly wont be using it, something better will be out! (I hope)

Switches are typically designed for a certain number of cycles in its life. So lets say each button is rated to 1 million cycles. Take that and the number of times you use the buttons daily and figure out how long the buttons will last for you. Lets say the typically user (not power users, like most of us) goes for the datebook button 6 times a day. Add a safty factor (4 hits), so a total of ten hits a day. This would give the button and effective life of 273 years, so I would imagine there is a little room in there for either a more active user or a lower cycle life button.

Just some food for thought, if you were hungry.

jonpod

[This message has been edited by jonpod (edited 09-28-1999).]

It's a good point. But add certain applications that are button intensive--such as games for instance--and your average number of button hits will possibly leap to several hundred per day. There are other apps besides games that are button intensive, but none leap to my mind at the moment.

Regardless, suddenly your million hits have dropped down to 9 years for someone who only hits the buttons 300 times per day. I don't know my point here except that it's much less than you project.

I guess I'm in an argumentative mood today, must be the rain against my window.

Still, 9 years is a good lifespan for a piece of hardware such as this one. I also don't think that game playing should be regarded as standard use. But, point is taken, it all depends on your user style. For me, 1 million actuations will last me...547 years give or take a couple...

Irewolf, I had the palm III and just sold it to buy the IIIx when I heard about the Visor and did a lot of reading on it. I do not use the buttons much at all. In fact I would like to see them go away in favor of more screen real estate. But I would also like the silk screened area to go away for the same purpose. Any written input could be written directly on the screen. Example: You want to write someone's name in the address book. You touch the line you want to change with the stylus and the bottom inch of the screen changes to a divided input section just like the silk screened area but when not in use it is not taking up space.

I won't mind the buttons gong away, not for more screen space just for a smaller overall unit.

3/4" off the bottom, sounds good to me.

jonpod

I have worn the paint off of my buttons win less than 6 months (and I don't play games, well almost never). 9 years is fine by me.

By the way, how did you reach "member" level Jackal?

By blabbing so much on the discussion boards. It takes 30 posts to hit member status.

You can check how many you've posted by looking at your profile (the envelope with the little face on it to the right of your name).