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Posted by septimus on 04-30-2003 03:25 PM:

Me Tarzan. You Occupied.

Great.Here's a story with a quote from the current head of Iraq:

quote:
_"We ought to be beating our chests every day. We ought to look in a mirror and get proud and stick out our chests and suck in our bellies and say: 'Damn, we're Americans!'," Jay Garner told reporters, saying that Iraq's oil fields and other infrastructure survived the war almost intact.

With material like this, I don't even need to try to be sardonic.

...and now we're getting shot at by protesters and vice-versa, the sentiment there seems to be leaning towards a theocracy (which will quash one of the few states in that region that lets women have some freedom), and the Coalition of the [insert favored noun here] is backpedaling away from statements about WMDs.

...so now what? I'll admit I have no great ideas. All I can think is this: we need to keep the right-wing religious fanatics in check while still giving them a voice. What they need is a multi-party parlimentary government with proportional representation so no single group can keep control without making compromises and coalitions. (Heck, put it that way, and it sounds like something we ought to put together here, too.)

As long as I'm bringing stuff up: what about the UN? Should we let in inspectors in? Should they have voice in reconstruction (although it's a little late for that, *cough* Bechtel *cough*)? In government formation?

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Posted by Yorick on 04-30-2003 03:43 PM:

Re: Me Tarzan. You Occupied.

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
...and now we're getting shot at by protesters

from what I understand the protestors in Iraq were shooting into the air -- which is a custom in the area. The soldiers overreacted.

Posted by BobbyMike on 04-30-2003 04:14 PM:

Do you know anything about Bechtel? The company may be based in the US, but when they do work overseas the majority of their workers and subcontractors (inc. engineers and project supervisors, and entire companies, etc.) are international and usually local. My dad used to work for them (out of Houston).

What's sardonic about about what Jay Garner said? Should we not be proud that Saddam wasn't able to destroy his own countries infrastructure? Or would it been better if America had been humbled because all those things (which had been predicted by those against coalitions actions) had happened?

Did protesters actually fire upon the troops. Was it a mistake (as dear Yorick says)? Or was it pro-Saddam forces stirring up trouble.

As to the theocracy issue, what you should be saying is those who have a vested interest in a theocracy and have any kind of a following are trying very hard to put themselves into the position to take advantage of the power vacumn. The US never planned for that kind of "freedom" as it would simply place another party in power that would marginilze a good deal of the Iraqi populance.

I don't happen to agree with you on the type of government that needs to be established as I feel that parlimentry governments are relics. Instead, how about a democratic republic? Seems to work well enough here.

Has anyone else heard that the Baath party had set up a fiber optic com link between Damascus and Bhagdad so that they could "run" their defense from Syria and the one of the reasons that there was such a disorganized defense was that link was cut (on purpose or inadverdently) early on and the commanders left behind were too afraid that they would something wrong (and be punished) that they "froze"?

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Posted by septimus on 04-30-2003 04:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Do you know anything about Bechtel?

I know they have a long history with iraq:

http://www.ips-dc.org/crudevision/index.htm

quote:
What's sardonic about about what Jay Garner said? Should we not be proud that Saddam wasn't able to destroy his own countries infrastructure? Or would it been better if America had been humbled because all those things (which had been predicted by those against coalitions actions) had happened?

We should be humbled about the loss of human life and cultural treasure. Not literally chest-thumping (isn't that usually hyperbole?) about oil

quote:
Did protesters actually fire upon the troops. Was it a mistake (as dear Yorick says)? Or was it pro-Saddam forces stirring up trouble.

dunno. Maybe I'm conflating the stuff in Saudi Arabia. I guess I was sorta asking.

quote:
emphasis mine
As to the theocracy issue, what you should be saying is those who have a vested interest in a theocracy and have any kind of a following are trying very hard to put themselves into the position to take advantage of the power vacumn. The US never planned for that kind of "freedom" as it would simply place another party in power that would marginilze a good deal of the Iraqi populance.

I don't know a lot about the demographics, but I think that we agree that allowing Iraq to become something like 70s/80s Iran would be something of a mistake. But let's call an occupation an occupation -- if we're going to dictate their form of gov't, pretending otherwise is just going to piss people off.

quote:
I don't happen to agree with you on the type of government that needs to be established as I feel that parlimentry governments are relics. Instead, how about a democratic republic? Seems to work well enough here.

relics of what? I think that our system of checks and balances is failing right now, and that the U.S. suffers from a very extreme "tyranny of the majority." I strongly believe that the US needs proportional representation at the federal (or at least the state) level.

quote:
Has anyone else heard that the Baath party had set up a fiber optic com link between Damascus and Bhagdad so that they could "run" their defense from Syria and the one of the reasons that there was such a disorganized defense was that link was cut (on purpose or inadverdently) early on and the commanders left behind were too afraid that they would something wrong (and be punished) that they "froze"?

I haven't, though I wouldn't be too surprised. the only conspiracy theories I've seen floating around regarding the Baath party is they all fled very early at the behest of Saudi Arabia. Many Arab presses are saying that they cut a secret deal with the US. I hope we can keep out of Syria.. we'll have to see what Karl Rove's "Fall Line" is next year, I guess.

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Posted by KRamsauer on 04-30-2003 05:20 PM:

For what it's worth, I am defnitely proud to be an American. I am proud to support a country that (for the most part) stands up for the rights of the individual, both here and abroad. I'm proud to contribute to a power than can be leveraged for great good. I'm humbled by any and all efforts to use this power for other means (there have definitely been many examples of this).

Regarding Iraq, I'm proud to help bring freedom to a country long suffering. However, I've said it once and I'll say it again: the justness of this war has yet to be decided. It is the actions of the US after the fighting stops that will determine whether our actions were just.

If they end up just, I will be especially proud. If they end up criminal, I will be especially embarassed that such actions were carried out with my support.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 04-30-2003 05:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by septimus

I know they have a long history with iraq:

http://www.ips-dc.org/crudevision/index.htm

You're taking your information from a liberal op-ed piece citing The Institute for Foreign Policy?! That's like asking the NRA for an unbiased bio of Wayne LaPierre!

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
We should be humbled about the loss of human life and cultural treasure. Not literally chest-thumping (isn't that usually hyperbole?) about oil

And we should be darn proud so few people actually died in the war. If you weigh how many people died (all sides) in the war to how many that Saddam killed (and supported killing - don't forget he was offering suicide bombers cash for their families) it becomes a clear choice. Also the cultural relics issue is a non-issue as it hasn't been proved that they were actually removed during the war by looters. They could have as easily been removed before hand by Baath party members. And they are just things. I'd give them all for just one life.
ANd don't forget that the infrastructure is what's going to keep the Iraqis fed. Right now that's their number one export. Tribal rugs will not keep their economy afloat.

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
dunno. Maybe I'm conflating the stuff in Saudi Arabia. I guess I was sorta asking.

I was just asking too. I'd like to know. I'm quite aware that in a situation like this ANYONE can make a dreadful mistake.

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
I don't know a lot about the demographics, but I think that we agree that allowing Iraq to become something like 70s/80s Iran would be something of a mistake. But let's call an occupation an occupation -- if we're going to dictate their form of gov't, pretending otherwise is just going to piss people off.

Let's wait and see how it pans out. There's a lot of turmoil now and the paople crying out for the US to leave now could change their minds in a week, month, or year.

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
relics of what? I think that our system of checks and balances is failing right now, and that the U.S. suffers from a very extreme "tyranny of the majority." I strongly believe that the US needs proportional representation at the federal (or at least the state) level.

I have to respectfully disagree. Our system works pretty much as it was intended to, except when the Supreme Court tries to reinterpet the Constitution to fit their current view of how things should be. (I really don't think the framers ever thought that would happen!)I don't like the party politics (like the Dem. filibuster of the Judicial nominees) because for the most part we, the people, are the ones that have to pay- but I'd rather live here than anywhere else. Every nation that I can think of that uses a parlimentry form of government is plagued by the same problems, or worse.

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
I haven't, though I wouldn't be too surprised. the only conspiracy theories I've seen floating around regarding the Baath party is they all fled very early at the behest of Saudi Arabia. Many Arab presses are saying that they cut a secret deal with the US. I hope we can keep out of Syria.. we'll have to see what Karl Rove's "Fall Line" is next year, I guess.

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Posted by jhappel on 05-01-2003 07:28 PM:

BobbyMike said: . . . I don't like the party politics (like the Dem. filibuster of the Judicial nominees) . . .
I wonder how you felt when the Republicans refused to have any hearings on almost all of Clinton's judicial nominees over an eight year period.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-01-2003 08:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jhappel
BobbyMike said: . . . I don't like the party politics (like the Dem. filibuster of the Judicial nominees) . . .
I wonder how you felt when the Republicans refused to have any hearings on almost all of Clinton's judicial nominees over an eight year period.

It's like a stupid game of tit for tat.

There should be a Supreme Court made up of thirds (liberal/moderate/conservative), but each of the parties is so idiotically num-skullish about the way they do business.

I have proudly registered as an Independent because voting along party lines only is, I feel, against everything this nation stands for.

You get ridiculous situations where a politician rants on about "having the freedom to disagree with an administration" while people protesting that politician are thrown out of the event. Politics have become, for the most part, less about actually achieving anything of lasting value and more about trying to make the other guy/gal look bad (while treading water so that you don't do too much to offend anyone).

But what do I know? I'm nuts. I joined the Marine Corp out of college because I felt it wouldn't be fair to vote in elections where I might help elect a president who might send our military off to war if I didn't really know what that would mean.

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-02-2003 06:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

It's like a stupid game of tit for tat.

There should be a Supreme Court made up of thirds (liberal/moderate/conservative), but each of the parties is so idiotically num-skullish about the way they do business.

I have proudly registered as an Independent because voting along party lines only is, I feel, against everything this nation stands for.

You get ridiculous situations where a politician rants on about "having the freedom to disagree with an administration" while people protesting that politician are thrown out of the event. Politics have become, for the most part, less about actually achieving anything of lasting value and more about trying to make the other guy/gal look bad (while treading water so that you don't do too much to offend anyone).

But what do I know? I'm nuts. I joined the Marine Corp out of college because I felt it wouldn't be fair to vote in elections where I might help elect a president who might send our military off to war if I didn't really know what that would mean.

I agree totally!
The navy didnt take me after highschool so I went to college, in hind sight I'm happy they didnt take me..

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-02-2003 07:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
Has anyone else heard that the Baath party had set up a fiber optic com link between Damascus and Bhagdad so that they could "run" their defense from Syria and the one of the reasons that there was such a disorganized defense was that link was cut (on purpose or inadverdently) early on and the commanders left behind were too afraid that they would something wrong (and be punished) that they "froze"?

I've seen some leaflets the US was going to drop/has dropped in Iraq warning people not to repair fibre optic networks...
I was wondering what that was about.. now it makes more sense..

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-02-2003 07:07 AM:

But back on topic:
'beating our chests' isnt a appropriate response to the Iraq war IMHO...
Yes you saved the oil field, great. Too bad you didnt (want to?) safe the palaces, musea, school, hospitals etc...

About the death toll, has anyone seen a number yet?
With all the bombing and rocketing I'd say the casualty rate will not be low...

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Posted by septimus on 05-02-2003 05:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
But back on topic:
'beating our chests' isnt a appropriate response to the Iraq war IMHO...
Yes you saved the oil field, great. Too bad you didnt (want to?) safe the palaces, musea, school, hospitals etc...

About the death toll, has anyone seen a number yet?
With all the bombing and rocketing I'd say the casualty rate will not be low...

We'll probably never know for sure. After the first Gulf War, Powell said that "Such numbers didn't interest him"

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Posted by K. Cannon on 05-02-2003 09:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by septimus
We'll probably never know for sure. After the first Gulf War, Powell said that "Such numbers didn't interest him"

We'll probably never know for sure regardless of whether Powell has a burning, itching need to know or whether he is uninterested.

[Heavy Southern-ese]Don't reckon that makes no never mind in the world of statistics...[/Heavy Souther-ese]

Posted by ToolkiT on 05-03-2003 02:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

We'll probably never know for sure regardless of whether Powell has a burning, itching need to know or whether he is uninterested.

True, but they can make an educated guess cant they?

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-03-2003 02:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
But back on topic:
'beating our chests' isnt a appropriate response to the Iraq war IMHO...
Yes you saved the oil field, great. Too bad you didnt (want to?) safe the palaces, musea, school, hospitals etc...

You mean where they hid all the weapons? Too bad about the civil liberties of the Iraqis under Saddam. Oh never mind, he's gone now. As I've said before, it's very hard to get worked up about buildings when people (you know those unique, irreplaceable beings) are at risk. If Saddam was still around he would be killing and torturing his own, while still funding terrorism and research into new ways to kill yet more people.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT
About the death toll, has anyone seen a number yet?
With all the bombing and rocketing I'd say the casualty rate will not be low...

As KC said we'll probably never know - as each of the many sides will inflate/deflate what ever figures they get to further their own agendas. It's probably safe to say that it is smaller than the number of people that died, before the coalition got there, by Saddams will.

[Heavy Southern-ese] Ain't them there statistics just another way for one of them egg-headed pencil necks to lie to us'n? [/Heavy Souther-ese]

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Posted by ToolkiT on 05-03-2003 03:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

You mean where they hid all the weapons? Too bad about the civil liberties of the Iraqis under Saddam. Oh never mind, he's gone now. As I've said before, it's very hard to get worked up about buildings when people (you know those unique, irreplaceable beings) are at risk. If Saddam was still around he would be killing and torturing his own, while still funding terrorism and research into new ways to kill yet more people.

I wasnt refering to the bombing, I was referring to the looting...
Also do you know anything I dont? AFAIK they still haven't found any WMD..
And yes, people are way more important then building, however my post was a response on the chest beating quote because they saved the infrastructure... For me infrastructure goes beyond oil wells...

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

As KC said we'll probably never know - as each of the many sides will inflate/deflate what ever figures they get to further their own agendas. It's probably safe to say that it is smaller than the number of people that died, before the coalition got there, by Saddams will.

I'm just curious... once we know the data we can determine if your statement now it is just heresay based on a guttfeeling..
Having said that I think you are probably right, but still would like to know the facts...
Besides that does that make it justify the lifes you took? especially those of innocent people hit by bombs not meant for them (either because of technical or intelligence failure)?

And more important what do the iraqi's feel about it themselfs?
Are they happy you destroyed Bagdad? First reactions were overwhelming, but so were those after they took down the Berlin wall.. the East-germans are now far less happy about it..
Just wondering if the US made allies or enemies in Iraq... not to mention the rest of the arab world...
Was it all worth it in the long run?? I guess only time will tell.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 05-03-2003 02:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

I wasnt refering to the bombing, I was referring to the looting...
Also do you know anything I dont? AFAIK they still haven't found any WMD..
And yes, people are way more important then building, however my post was a response on the chest beating quote because they saved the infrastructure... For me infrastructure goes beyond oil wells...

I was referring to all of it. My views on the looting have been aired before. The US led coalition did a very good job of dismantling the military with a minimum of ancillary damage. This war was probably the least damaging to civilians/innocents ever.

quote:
Originally posted by ToolkiT

I'm just curious... once we know the data we can determine if your statement now it is just heresay based on a guttfeeling..
Having said that I think you are probably right, but still would like to know the facts...
Besides that does that make it justify the lifes you took? especially those of innocent people hit by bombs not meant for them (either because of technical or intelligence failure)?

And more important what do the iraqi's feel about it themselfs?
Are they happy you destroyed Bagdad? First reactions were overwhelming, but so were those after they took down the Berlin wall.. the East-germans are now far less happy about it..
Just wondering if the US made allies or enemies in Iraq... not to mention the rest of the arab world...
Was it all worth it in the long run?? I guess only time will tell.

Justify the lives that were taken??? I am in awe that people will still complain about the loss of life involved with this , but they will sit by and not think/say a thing about the loss of life that occurs when a madman is in charge. This idoit madman killed close to half a million (that's six zeros) of his people. He directly rewarded suicide bombers that killed Israeli civilians (by giving cash rewards to their families) and he was funding WMD research in his own country (even the UN doesn't dispute this).

The coalition hasn't found enough evidence to satisfy it's detractors, but there is plenty of circumstancial evidence, including testimony from Iraqi researchers that says he was in the thick of it.

Gotta go! more later....

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Posted by KRamsauer on 05-03-2003 03:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Justify the lives that were taken??? I am in awe that people will still complain about the loss of life involved with this , but they will sit by and not think/say a thing about the loss of life that occurs when a madman is in charge. This idoit madman killed close to half a million (that's six zeros) of his people. He directly rewarded suicide bombers that killed Israeli civilians (by giving cash rewards to their families) and he was funding WMD research in his own country (even the UN doesn't dispute this).

Well, half a million only has 5 zeroes.

I'm always amazed that this country doesn't do more to improve the quality of life around the world and save millions upon millions of lives. Merely doing things like ending agriculture subsidies that drive down the price of grain (you want to give farmers money--go for it--just don't do it in a way that affects the market price of their goods) and eliminating import quotas and tariffs we can lift income in the third world without any real outlay on our part. Simple things like that. If Bush sticks to his pledge for $15B to fund aids research, that is great as well. Problem is I'm not sure it was an honest move (as opposed to a political one) and I'm not sure if its going to be ongoing or a one off deal.

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Posted by yardie on 05-03-2003 05:41 PM:

I am sure that are millions of Americans who are ashamed because of their goverment's action in Iraq. I do not think there is anything to be proud of. The whole adventure in Iraq only proves that Saddam was no threat to anyone outside Iraq.

As for the Theocracy, I think the U.S. should realize that democracy is not the right solution for every country. But there is saying be careful what you wish for.... Countries where democracy truly works usually have a long history..and a mostly homogenous population to start with.

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

What's sardonic about about what Jay Garner said? Should we not be proud that Saddam wasn't able to destroy his own countries infrastructure? Or would it been better if America had been humbled because all those things (which had been predicted by those against coalitions actions) had happened?

Did protesters actually fire upon the troops. Was it a mistake (as dear Yorick says)? Or was it pro-Saddam forces stirring up trouble.

As to the theocracy issue, what you should be saying is those who have a vested interest in a theocracy and have any kind of a following are trying very hard to put themselves into the position to take advantage of the power vacumn. The US never planned for that kind of "freedom" as it would simply place another party in power that would marginilze a good deal of the Iraqi populance.

I don't happen to agree with you on the type of government that needs to be established as I feel that parlimentry governments are relics. Instead, how about a democratic republic? Seems to work well enough here.

Has anyone else heard that the Baath party had set up a fiber optic com link between Damascus and Bhagdad so that they could "run" their defense from Syria and the one of the reasons that there was such a disorganized defense was that link was cut (on purpose or inadverdently) early on and the commanders left behind were too afraid that they would something wrong (and be punished) that they "froze"?

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Posted by yardie on 05-03-2003 05:46 PM:

I think you would be more accurate if you say that the U.S. stands up for the rights of the American individual. If you are muslim, Pakistani etc. the U.S. when stand up for your rights only if it matters.

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
For what it's worth, I am defnitely proud to be an American. I am proud to support a country that (for the most part) stands up for the rights of the individual, both here and abroad. I'm proud to contribute to a power than can be leveraged for great good. I'm humbled by any and all efforts to use this power for other means (there have definitely been many examples of this).

Regarding Iraq, I'm proud to help bring freedom to a country long suffering. However, I've said it once and I'll say it again: the justness of this war has yet to be decided. It is the actions of the US after the fighting stops that will determine whether our actions were just.

If they end up just, I will be especially proud. If they end up criminal, I will be especially embarassed that such actions were carried out with my support.

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