VisorCentral.com - TiVo or Replay?

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Posted by vifon on 04-18-2001 06:23 AM:

I think I want a digital video recorder. I have a dish network satellite reciever, so what do you think is the best for my interests? I heard TiVo was incompatible, but I'm not sure. I'm looking for anything under $500.

Posted by EricG on 04-18-2001 07:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by vifon
I think I want a digital video recorder. I have a dish network satellite reciever, so what do you think is the best for my interests? I heard TiVo was incompatible, but I'm not sure. I'm looking for anything under $500.

Before you buy a TiVo, look at this link.. http://www.privacyfoundation.org/pr...62&action=0

I was shocked and horrified at what TiVio records and sends back to the Tivo HQ. EVERYTHING YOU DO AND WATCH, yes, even all the times you pressed the remote & which buttons, how often & when, how long you stayed on a channel while surfing, etc..! This is the worst form of privacy invasion I have ever seen.. I thought TiVo was kool.. now I don't!!!!!!!!!!!

Replay seems to be less interested in your viewing habits and/or invading your privacy without your consent.. But which ever way you go, keep the idea that you could be monitored in the back of your head, ask questions, and get answers (and not from the "sales kiddies" on the selling floor but from the corporate head quarters of the product manufacturer)

__________________
"One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no �them� out there. It�s just an awful lot of �us�." -- Douglas Adams

Posted by Bret Snyder on 04-18-2001 09:32 AM:

You might want to take a look at AVSForum.com for specific questions regarding PVR's.

This site is TiVo centric, but you should be able to find out any issues with "Dish".

I own a TiVo box and am very happy with it.

__________________
Bret Snyder<BR>If you don't know where you're going,<BR>You'll probably end up somewhere else.

Posted by luciddreams on 04-18-2001 10:23 AM:

Wha?

I've never understood the crazy paranoia behind some privacy rants. Who cares if they want to know how long you watched The Simpsons or if you flipped from Survivor to catch the news? They aren't doing it for any spite, only to enhance your viewing pleasure so they can get more money and keep you tuned in longer. I really hope they are keeping track of every time I flip the Old Navy commercials or how I have the Home Shopping Channels blocked out. I don't think their going to steal my identity or kill my family from recording ACCNT#0578291's viewing habits. Give it a break!

Posted by homer on 04-18-2001 02:54 PM:

I agree, Luciddreams.

People tend to over react to privacy issues and the web. There are certainly legitimate privacy issues on the net, but more often than not, the 'invasion of privacy' is really just some market research.

The media, such as TV, is not there to entertain you. It is there to make money. Plain and simple.

Yes, privacy is important. But I do not see how company that monitors my TV watching is really invading my privacy. If it helps them finance another episode of the SImpsons, hey, I'm all for it.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by Rob on 04-18-2001 03:18 PM:

Re: Wha?

quote:
Originally posted by luciddreams
I've never understood the crazy paranoia behind some privacy rants. Who cares if they want to know how long you watched The Simpsons or if you flipped from Survivor to catch the news? They aren't doing it for any spite, only to enhance your viewing pleasure so they can get more money and keep you tuned in longer.

I think the problem is that companies are gathering information about your viewing/surfing/buying habits without your knowledge or consent. It would be different if they were upfront about what they were gathering and why, and who they will sell that information to -- that way, people who don't care (or are willing to 'sell' access to their own demographic info/purchasing habits for a few frequent flyer miles) can use these services, and those 'paranoid' people who want to protect their privacy can steer clear. If there's nothing wrong with it, why not be open and honest about what you are doing? They can even say it in marketing-speak if they want, like you do when you say it's 'only to enhance your viewing pleasure'. Those who are less trusting of the company's motives (or the company they sell your information to...or the company that company sells your information to...) than you will still get the message and be able to avoid them.

One reason why some people may over-react to what you probably consider benign collection of simple demographic information is not necessarily the data that is currently being collected, but the prospect of more invasive violations of privacy in the future. If no one objects, then corporations and their government lobbyists may be able to further erode privacy protections in the name of customizing service or improving the profitability of certain industries (hey, senator, it's good for the economy!). It would certainly make the insurance companies a lot more money if they could deny insurance to (or jack up prices for) people whose purchasing/viewing/surfing habits fit certain 'high risk' profiles (hmm...this guy seems to like extreme sports...let's double his car insurance premiums)

quote:
Originally posted by homer
Yes, privacy is important. But I do not see how company that monitors my TV watching is really invading my privacy. If it helps them finance another episode of the SImpsons, hey, I'm all for it.

This might be valid if 1) they were upfront about what they were collecting and how they were using it, as I mentioned above, and 2) you weren't already paying them for the equipment and/or service. If watching annoying Brittany Spears Pepsi Cola ads are the price I pay to get Simpsons for free, then that's fine. But how would you like it if Handspring/Palm modified their backup conduits so it would send certain information from your Palm data and your usage habits to their servers without your permission so they could offer you 'exclusive' deals by soliciting advertising that would show up in a pop-up window whenever you turned on your palm?

Posted by j762538 on 04-18-2001 05:21 PM:

I have owned a Tivo for almost a year and love it. No more long drawn out setup for recording, forgetting to put a tape in, set it to record, finding the right tape, fast forwarding/reversing to find a show. I sit down, turn it in on, select the show to watch and I am watching any number of shows that get recorded on the 30 hour drive. Not only will it record what I want , it will record what it thinks I like. I have found a few cool shows this way. There is a two week listing of what each show is about and it updates its software. Just got the latest update and now I can set it so it doesn't record reruns. There is a wish list now that will record shows based on keywords you enter. I think Tivo is compatible with your receiver, there is a remote changer unit included.

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Posted by Gameboy70 on 04-18-2001 06:17 PM:

The privacy issue may, on the surface at least, seem fanatical. For the most part, it's not a problem, because unlike a hard drive, there's no unique content on broadcast television. We're all feeding from the same trough. But I can think of at least one case where there might be a potential for abuse. Maybe someone who watches three hours of adult programming a night is concerned that his viewing habits are a matter of record. There's a case to be made for security, which is a question of policy, as opposed to paranoia, which is a question of attitude. There's a huge difference between guarding yourself from the potential of being violated and anticipating being violated.

I was once in the back of a line at a bank when a clerk, to expedite the flow of the line, asked me for my SSN; she wanted me to say it out loud. I refused, telling her that I was give the number to her when I reached the window. At no time did I think that any customer would care what my social security number was, or write it down and subquently abuse it. It was a matter of principle.

There was a time when Amazon's stated policy was that it would share its customer information; then they started selling it. Amazon gets away with this because it's calculated that the vast majority of customers will opt for convenience over privacy, which is probably true. But that doesn't make privacy concerns equal paranoia.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with owning a TiVo, since I don't watch anything that might be compromising. But it's up to each person to weigh the risks versus the rewards.

Posted by CrayDrygu on 04-18-2001 08:14 PM:

TiVo's Log Files

I've looked through TiVo's log files before (yeah, there's a way to get a linux shell and poke around...quick version: connect to the serial port, reset the tivo, and hit enter at the right time during startup). I see no cause for concern.

They're full of things like this (note this is not copy/pasting, just rough approximations):

Internal temperature at xx
Changed fan speed to 9
Internal temperature at xx
Changed fan speed to 0
User pressed "CHANUP"
User pressed "CHANUP"
User pressed "CHANUP"

etc, etc, ad nauseum

Posted by Rob on 04-18-2001 08:19 PM:

For those who are currently using a TiVo, there's apparently an upgrade to fix the infinite-reboot problem described in this article:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/200...its_tivo_1.html

Posted by EricG on 04-19-2001 02:12 AM:

Rob captured the essence of my feelings, it's not paranoia, I just like to know things upfront.. Also, that kind of information is valuable and I'd like a say in what is done with it.. I just find it disturbing that anyone is logging my activities without my prior consent or awareness. (to me, it's like having my phone conversations recorded, not necessarily very interesting, but still let me know upfront)

It's not the raw logs that are the problem, its when you "crunch them" and each Tivo box has a unique id which is tied to a customer..

__________________
"One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no �them� out there. It�s just an awful lot of �us�." -- Douglas Adams

Posted by Matthew Nichols on 04-19-2001 03:25 AM:

I'm also one who could care less about what TiVo sends back, I had always assumed it monitored my data. Actually I'm happy TiVo does this, perhaps when we all have TiVos some day we won't have to rely on those crappy Nielsen ratings.

Off the privacy issue and on to what the person asked for:

I own a TiVo so I may be bias but they seem to be the best choice right now. ReplayTV was on really hard times financially recently & announced they were getting out of hardware altogether and concentrating on providing software to other companies (Like TiVo's business model). Since then they've been bought out by SonicBlue (Formerly S3, Diamond MultiMedia) so I'm not exactly sure what their plan for the next few years is. The bonus to this is that ReplayTVs seem to be on sale.

The TiVo should work fine with your Dish. When people say incompatability with it they're reffering to the models which have a DirecTV satellite reciever built-in. What you have to get is a Standalone, which real-time encodes the signal as MPEG (vs a satellite reciever which just saved the already digital signal to the hard drive).

TiVo & Replay are abut equal in price. In most cases the TiVo hardware will be about $200 less than a comparable Replay box. The reason being, you have to pay a monthly fee of $10 for TiVo & not for Replay. TiVo does offer, for $200 (End of April $250), a lifetime subscription for your unit - so it equals out. The subscription if for the life of the unit, not you.

Some other things to consider is that Replay has ads from sponsors in their menus & a 30-second skip for commercials. TiVos have suggestion recordings.

Hope I helped & didn't ramble too much.

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[email protected]

Posted by JHromadka on 04-19-2001 05:15 AM:

I have the ReplayTV and it is one of the best purchases I have ever made. The feature that sets it apart from the Tivo is the Quick Skip button that takes you 30 seconds forward. A few presses and you skip all commercials. You can also enter a number then the QS button to jump forward x minutes if you want fewer button presses.

We looked at both, but went with the Replay because of the remote, privacy concerns, and the fact that there is no monthly fee. Privacy is a hotly debated topic. With companies going out of business and selling their customer data these days, that data could fall into the hands of a telemarketer.

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Old Friend

Posted by CrayDrygu on 04-19-2001 08:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JHromadka
We looked at both, but went with the Replay because of the remote, privacy concerns, and the fact that there is no monthly fee. Privacy is a hotly debated topic. With companies going out of business and selling their customer data these days, that data could fall into the hands of a telemarketer.

Well, that's a shame. If you believe TiVo -- and I've seen no reason not to -- then if you data does fall into the hands of a telemarketer, it certainly won't have your name and phone number attached to it.

Oh, and there's no monthly fee with TiVo, either. Unless you want to pay that way. You can easily do a one-time payment that gets you a subscription for the life of the unit, though.

So that leaves the 30-second skip button. But if you've seen how fast a TiVo goes at full fast-forward, well...it's not that big a difference.

Note I'm not saying you shouldn't have bought a Replay unit... not at all. Just that your reasons don't make sense to me.

Posted by Bret Snyder on 04-19-2001 11:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CrayDrygu
...
So that leaves the 30-second skip button. But if you've seen how fast a TiVo goes at full fast-forward, well...it's not that big a difference.

With TiVo's fast forward (the middle speed) you can FF past the commercials and hit Play as soon as you see your program start. It will then skip back 12 seconds (usually exactly the the beginning of where you want to start at) and resume playing.

Everyone in my family is used to doing this, and it really is not as big a deal as it sounds.

For a biased comparison of TiVo and Replay, you might want to see this thread.

For another discussion regarding TiVo privacy issues, you might want to see this thread.

__________________
Bret Snyder<BR>If you don't know where you're going,<BR>You'll probably end up somewhere else.

Posted by homer on 04-19-2001 11:47 PM:

quote:
With companies going out of business and selling their customer data these days, that data could fall into the hands of a telemarketer.

Fair enough, but keep in mind that personal data has been bought and sold for decades prior to the internet and Tivo.

It's still a concern, of course, but I find it odd that people really haven't made a big stink out of it until the interent.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by EricG on 04-20-2001 02:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer

It's still a concern, of course, but I find it odd that people really haven't made a big stink out of it until the interent.

Up to now it's been too hard to centralize or tie all "collected" (very specific) data associated with a particular person into one master database (i.e. websites visited, credit card purchases, medical history, political affiliations, police records, television shows watched, commercials watched, grocery store purchases (using a store card to get discounts), credit history, property sales, public records, etc..) , until now.. it can be done in a matter of split seconds and/or by acquiring another company(s) and their databases (i.e. how DoubleClick acquired Abacus's database). Additionally, the accuracy of the data has been very difficult to achieve because of the time it used to take to compile all the information on a person, again, now it can be done is seconds.. and finally, this data can be accidently (by hackers or general administrative incompetence) , can be disclosed to the general (global) public in an instant.

__________________
"One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no �them� out there. It�s just an awful lot of �us�." -- Douglas Adams

Posted by CrayDrygu on 04-20-2001 05:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bret Snyder
With TiVo's fast forward (the middle speed) you can FF past the commercials and hit Play as soon as you see your program start. It will then skip back 12 seconds (usually exactly the the beginning of where you want to start at) and resume playing.

I know, I have one =) It'll back up on a full fast-forward, too. It's a great feature. I hate fast-forwarding VCR tapes, and rewinding, and FF-ing, etc ad nauseum, until I hit the right spot.

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