VisorCentral.com - Are we THAT paranoid?

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Posted by homer on 10-19-2001 05:45 PM:

Are we THAT paranoid?

A sad story on how paranoid we're becoming:

http://www.citypaper.net/articles/1...s.godfrey.shtml

We're rapidly turning into a nation of idiots.

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Posted by creole on 10-19-2001 06:11 PM:

OH MY GOD...

If that would have been me I would have raised such hell that people in Afghanistan would have heard me. It's freaking bad enough they wouldn't allow me to take my backpack into the football game last weekend, now they're preventing people from flying just because of a book?

HOLY SHNIKES

Don't people realize that if someone wanted to blow up another plane or building it would be simple?

Posted by usonian2001 on 10-19-2001 06:34 PM:

All "This is what the terrorists want" rhetoric aside, these yahoos strike me as the same people who suspend schoolchildren for having silverware ("weapons") packed in their school lunches, or for taking Aspirin or Sudafed.

I understand the need for heightened security at our airports, but a committee of police and national guardsmen examining a guy's Harry Potter book for 20 minutes is uncalled for. Were they looking for encoded messages from Osama Bin Laden in it, or what?

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Posted by miradu on 10-19-2001 08:19 PM:

This makes me want to cry. This is sick. omg -

I grew up learning about the bill of rights, america's founding, FREEDOM. Freedom to think. Freedom to talk. Freedom to learn. Freedom to be yourself, as long as it doesn't harm others.

When you say somebody can't board a plane becuase he has a book with a bomb on the cover - damnit, how many fscking books are there that are about violence?!?! WHAT HAS THIS WORLD COME TO?

He brings Harry Potter - and gets scrutinized?!?! you have to be kdding me. Harry Potter is the biggest (mayeb not best ) thing that has happened to books for a long time, and somebody doens't - I don't even want to talk.

What has the world come to, and how the hell am I going to be able to change it so I get back my freedoms.

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Posted by sowens on 10-19-2001 08:40 PM:

Re: Are we THAT paranoid?

quote:
Originally posted by homer
We're rapidly turning into a nation of idiots.

Rapidly turning? I think it's been happening for at least 2 decades
now.

quote:
Originally posted by usonian2001
I understand the need for heightened security at our airports, but a committee of police and national guardsmen examining a guy's Harry Potter book for 20 minutes is uncalled for. Were they looking for encoded messages from Osama Bin Laden in it, or what?

The problem is, by the time he came back with the Harry Potter book,
he had already made "the list". Since he was scrutinized for carrying subversive material before (I'm assuming that's what security would call it), he might be carrying it again, only disguised this time.

Personally, I think the guys got a good lawsuit in the making here.

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Posted by PDAENVY on 10-19-2001 08:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by miradu2000
He brings Harry Potter - and gets scrutinized?!?!

To restate what sowens said: HP didn't cause him to be scrutinized, a book with TNT on the front did. The second time he was scrutinized was because a security officer recognized him from the same day.

Actually, if you assume that the first stop was legitimate (I'm not saying I do, but the cop does), then as a cop doing his job he had damn well better stop a person who was already thrown off a plane earlier the same day.

__________________
Jeff

Posted by GSR13 on 10-19-2001 08:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by miradu2000
This makes me want to cry. This is sick. omg -

I grew up learning about the bill of rights, america's founding, FREEDOM. Freedom to think. Freedom to talk. Freedom to learn. Freedom to be yourself, as long as it doesn't harm others.

When you say somebody can't board a plane becuase he has a book with a bomb on the cover - damnit, how many fscking books are there that are about violence?!?! WHAT HAS THIS WORLD COME TO?

He brings Harry Potter - and gets scrutinized?!?! you have to be kdding me. Harry Potter is the biggest (mayeb not best ) thing that has happened to books for a long time, and somebody doens't - I don't even want to talk.

What has the world come to, and how the hell am I going to be able to change it so I get back my freedoms.

Do you really believe this is a question of his freedom? While I readily agree that what United did was wrong, I do not believe they revoked his Freedom. When you purchase an Airline Ticket you open yourself up to restrictions, as governed by the airline. United was completely within their rights to refuse him as a customer. This does not mean that what they did wasn't ignorant, but it is their call. They have duty to provide safe travel to the other passengers onboard and if they consider someone a threat, then they have the right to keep him off the flight.

Yes, what they did was paranoid and wrong, I agree. I also believe he should get a full refund for his airfare and perhaps compensation for his time. A lawsuit is not in order, but probably will happen anyway. That seems to be our motto, if you cannot get what you want, sue them.

The other problem I have with this, is the fact that we have only heard one side of the story. While the report may be 100% accurate, it is possible there is more to it. There are always three sides to every story, and I never pass judgement until I know them all.

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Posted by PDAENVY on 10-19-2001 08:55 PM:

Re: Re: Are we THAT paranoid?

quote:
Originally posted by sowens
Personally, I think the guys got a good lawsuit in the making here.

On what grounds?
Illegal search and seizure? No, airport security is allowed to search.

False arrest? No, he wasn't arrested.

Civil rights violation? There is no constitutional right to buy a plane ticket and fly.

Breach of contract? No, I'm sure his tickets will be refunded.

Yes, what he went through was a huge ordeal. But I don't see any grounds for a real lawsuit. If he sues, he might well get a settlement, but only because it'd be cheaper for the airline than a winning defense against the suit.

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Jeff

Posted by homer on 10-19-2001 09:27 PM:

We're allowed to sue for anything we want to in this country. That's not necessarily a good thing, but it's something we can do.

In this particular case, I certainly think he has a right to sue. He was harassed for no real reason. He was denied access twice for no real reason.

It may not be a civil case, but it is certainly something that the Attorney General in the state should be involved with.

Also note that United is about to go bankrupt and is begging the governement for bailout money. Any industry that relies continously on government bailouts can NOT arbitrarily discriminate. That's just not right. (Granted having the government financing private industry just isn't right either, but it happens all the time...)

I personally believe that our country protects the rights of corporations MUCH more than it protects the rights of consumers. At this point, suing is the only real recourse most of us have in seeking even just an apology from ruthless corporations.

This crap wouldn't be happening if Nader was involved in some way.

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Posted by ernieba1 on 10-19-2001 09:51 PM:

You're all saying "What has America come to?" It's not America, it's Philly. The security at Philadelphia International is a joke. Let me tell you a story (no, don't leave now!).

My dad was coming back from a trip from LA. This was a few years ago. He's a lawyer and was at some law meeting, coming home to meet with a judge downtown. After the airplane landed, it taxied to a seperate corner of the airport, and was surrounded by Philadelphia police. Some police came on the plane and walked down the aisle, looking at each passenger. They were obviously looking for somebody. My dad was sitting in the last row, and when the police didn't find who they were looking for, they took him, so they could say they got somebody. They took him out of the plane, didn't tell him anything, and put him in a police car. A little while later, and FBI agent got into the car. "Do you know why you're here?"
"No! I have no idea why I'm here! Would you tell me? I have to meet with a federal judge in half an hour! Is there anyway I call and tell him I'm going to be late?"
"Sure. Here's a cell phone."
This would be a good time to mention that my dad had drinks with the head of the FBI the night before in LA. My dad dialed. "Hello, is Judge Soandso there? No? Can you tell him that I'm being detained by the FBI at Philadelphia International Airport? Yeah. Thank you."
The guy got out. My dad watched him screaming at the police saying something like "YOU IDOITS! WHAT THE HELL DID YOU TAKE HIM OFF THE PLANE FOR? HE'S MEETING WITH A FEDERAL JUDGE DOWNTOWN IN HALF AN HOUR!" and so on. He got back in the car. "There's been a mistake." Well, duh. "Somebody ran through the checkpoint at LA, and you, um, fit his description. We'll get your bags and take you to your car." In the end, my dad actually got to the judge early.

I also want to note that after the election, that newspaper, City Paper, ran the headline "NADAR LOSES!"

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Posted by PDAENVY on 10-19-2001 09:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by homer
We're allowed to sue for anything we want to in this country. That's not necessarily a good thing, but it's something we can do.

Of course, but frivolous lawsuits make everything more expensive because companies need more lawyers. People should use discretion.

quote:
...I certainly think he has a right to sue.

Of course. As you said, for better or for worse, we always have that right.

quote:
He was denied access twice for no real reason.

As I said, the airlines are entitled to be arbitrary in their refusals. Now, if he was a member of a protected class (race, religion, sex) and subjected to discrimination as a result of that class, he'd have something. I don't see any evidence that he was. Maybe there's a case for harrassment - I'm not clear in my mind about what that legally entails.

quote:
...it is certainly something that the Attorney General in the state should be involved with.

I agree.

quote:
...arbitrarily discriminate...

An oxymoron - either they were arbitrary or they discriminated on the basis of something. Not all discrimination is even constitutionally prohibited, for instance weight or looks.

quote:
I personally believe that our country protects the rights of corporations MUCH more than it protects the rights of consumers.

Absolutely.

quote:
At this point, suing is the only real recourse most of us have in seeking even just an apology from ruthless corporations.[QUOTE]Perhaps, for a given occurrance. But to protect all of us from similar events, grass-roots pressure on the legislature, while long term, seems like a better idea to me.

[QUOTE]This crap wouldn't be happening if Nader was involved in some way.

So now that he's not running for office, why isn't he doing something about this?

__________________
Jeff

Posted by homer on 10-19-2001 10:50 PM:

quote:
I also want to note that after the election, that newspaper, City Paper, ran the headline "NADAR LOSES!"

Who's NADAR? What are you responding to?

__________________
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Posted by homer on 10-19-2001 10:53 PM:

quote:
So now that he's not running for office, why isn't he doing something about this?

Hmm. Good question. Where did Nader go?

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Posted by Toby on 10-19-2001 11:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GSR13
[...] When you purchase an Airline Ticket you open yourself up to restrictions, as governed by the airline. [...]

Actually, IIRC, once you're in the 'care' of the airline, you rescind all of your rights by federal statute.

Posted by Anomaly on 10-19-2001 11:50 PM:

Without addressing any of the substance here, and definitely not the legal questions because they're way too involved for a casual conversation, but did anybody notice that the guy's brother is the webmaster of that "newspaper?"

Posted by ashmed on 10-20-2001 12:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Anomaly
Without addressing any of the substance here, and definitely not the legal questions because they're way too involved for a casual conversation, but did anybody notice that the guy's brother is the webmaster of that "newspaper?"

I did, guess we can't consider that article to be totally unbiased can we?

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Posted by BobbyMike on 10-20-2001 02:40 AM:

"I also want to note that after the election, that newspaper, City Paper, ran the headline "NADAR LOSES!

Who's NADAR? What are you responding to?"

Was he pointing out the mispelling of Nader's name?

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Posted by Yorick on 10-20-2001 04:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by miradu2000
What has the world come to, and how the hell am I going to be able to change it so I get back my freedoms.

Which freedoms did you lose? You can still go anywhere you want, read whatever you want (though, perhaps not while flying ...), work for whoever you want, spend as much money as you have (or have credit for), marry and worship as you please ... I mean, this guy was just inconvenienced by overzealousness.

quote:
Originally posted by ashmed
I did, guess we can't consider that article to be totally unbiased can we?

It would be considered "full disclosure" similar to CNN talking about AOL/Time Warner and noting it is "the parent company of this network."

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Posted by PDAENVY on 10-20-2001 04:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Anomaly
Without addressing any of the substance here, and definitely not the legal questions because they're way too involved for a casual conversation, but did anybody notice that the guy's brother is the webmaster of that "newspaper?"

I actually sent the reporter an email. She said that she overheard the webmaster brother telling about how he's been blocked from two flights and she asked him if she could talk to his brother, which she did.

I asked her if anyone besides his family confirmed his story and if she had seen the unused tickets. She didn't respond about the tickets, but she said that she contacted United and they "acknowledged the incedent" but would not comment.

I should email her back and ask about the tickets again.

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Jeff

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