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Posted by GSR13 on 08-19-2001 03:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

Doan wanna. I'm responsible for myself and my actions and statements. I don't knowingly or intentionally lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, or incite riots. Some days I even feel like I accomplished something of value. I would rather not be beholden to an idea.
Is that wrong?

(and, now that I'm made my latest semi-incendiary-sounding statements, [Snagglepuss]exit, stage left even! [/Snagglepuss])

I agree 100% that you are responsible for you. I think that it is wonderful that you try not to do any of those things you listed, most society would probably be the same way. However, that still will not get you into Heaven. Now, if that does not concern you, or you do not believe in Heaven, that is your choice (back to free will).

Everyone is beholden to some idea. Be it Christianity, Buddhism, or the thought that they are not beholden to an idea. There is something driving you to not do those things which you listed. Some idea, either about yourself, or those you have come in contact with.

As to whether or not you are wrong, that depends on what your goal is. My goal is to live a Christian life. That each and every thing I do would be in accordance with God's Will. That I would fulfill each and every commandment and believe all that God has said. That the application of Christ's Blood on my Heart would lead me to the Rapture.

I can say, that if you have not accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then based on the Bible, you are living a sinful life. By that, you are still subject to the Law. However, if you do not use the Bible as your measuring stick, then that means nothing to you and in your mind you are not wrong. It all goes back to free will and the choices you make.

__________________
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2

Posted by GSR13 on 08-19-2001 03:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster

well, I agree that we need to repent, be baptized, and then receive the Holy Ghost. All three are needed. But who has the authority to baptize? How does one receive the Holy Ghost? A man cannot take upon himself the authority to act in God's name (the priesthood). There are many instances in the Bible where it is made clear that one must have this authority. One such example is found in Acts 19: 1-5. In this instance, Paul finds a group of people who had previously been baptized. When he found out that they had not heard of the Holy Ghost, he questioned the authority used in their baptism, and thus rebaptizes them with the proper authority. This is another essential reason why organized religion is needed. This authority should not be given based on the education that a person has receive, but I believe that a man must be "called of God, by those who are in authority". Then he may receive the priesthood, and act in God's name.

Actually, that is not what Paul was doing at all. Though that Scripture is proof that a person does not receive the Holy Ghost when they Believe in Christ as the Messiah. That was Pauls point.

ACTS 19:1
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

ACTS 19:2
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

ACTS 19:3
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

ACTS 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

ACTS 19:5
When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

ACTS 19:6
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These men that Paul came in contact with had been Baptized before the Holy Ghost came on the scene. Those in order to receive the Holy Ghost they to fulfill all Gods Commandments. Including Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, just as laid out in Acts 2:38.

The only thing Organized Religion has done is successfully screw up water baptism. Any one baptized under Matthew 28:19 is not in accordance with the Word. That was Paul's point. You must be fully obedient to the Commandments of God and then you may receive the Holy Ghost.

It certainly does not take Organized Religion to do that. Paul had nothing to do with any organized religion. His only governing body was the Holy Spirit. He did not need a Pope, or any one else.

__________________
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2

Posted by Yorick on 08-19-2001 05:58 AM:

Originally posted by GSR13
However, that still will not get you into Heaven. Now, if that does not concern you, or you do not believe in Heaven, that is your choice (back to free will).
I've already weighed in on my opinion of heaven and what's up for me after this life ends earlier in this thread. Mainly, I believe in reincarnation and heaven (small H) should be a part of your current existance, not some hoped-for afterlife reward.

Everyone is beholden to some idea. Be it Christianity, Buddhism, or the thought that they are not beholden to an idea. There is something driving you to not do those things which you listed. Some idea, either about yourself, or those you have come in contact with.
"Do unto others" is the only thing from Christian theology that ever meant anything to me, especially since all those other commandments are just variations on that. While I don't look at it this way, it could be said that it's the idea driving me to not do those things. Mostly it's just common sense and a desire not to do harm.

I can say, that if you have not accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then based on the Bible, you are living a sinful life.
Damn me! Damn me all to hell! ahem. just monkeying around. (Nice statue there, BTW. what's it made of?)

__________________
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Posted by chuckster on 08-20-2001 02:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GSR13

Actually, that is not what Paul was doing at all. Though that Scripture is proof that a person does not receive the Holy Ghost when they Believe in Christ as the Messiah. That was Pauls point.

These men that Paul came in contact with had been Baptized before the Holy Ghost came on the scene. Those in order to receive the Holy Ghost they to fulfill all Gods Commandments. Including Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, just as laid out in Acts 2:38.

The only thing Organized Religion has done is successfully screw up water baptism. Any one baptized under Matthew 28:19 is not in accordance with the Word. That was Paul's point. You must be fully obedient to the Commandments of God and then you may receive the Holy Ghost.

It certainly does not take Organized Religion to do that. Paul had nothing to do with any organized religion. His only governing body was the Holy Spirit. He did not need a Pope, or any one else.

Well, this is a major reason why organized religion is so important. Everyone can read the scriptures, and interpret them in their own ways. When I read those verses, I understand them in a completely different way than you do. That is why it is not only important that there is organized religion, but continuous revelation given to living prophets, so they can help us to understand what the scriptures actually mean.

Posted by GSR13 on 08-20-2001 04:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster

Well, this is a major reason why organized religion is so important. Everyone can read the scriptures, and interpret them in their own ways. When I read those verses, I understand them in a completely different way than you do. That is why it is not only important that there is organized religion, but continuous revelation given to living prophets, so they can help us to understand what the scriptures actually mean.

The importance is having the Holy Ghost. Through this, you will receive Revelation of the Word for yourself. That is the very problem with Organized Religion. There is not one Organized Religion that believes the unaltered Word of God, not one. Organized Religion has been the very destruction of the true believers. Everytime a group Organizes, God leaves. Why, because they become more interested in twisting God's Word to suit their own needs, than fulfilling that which God has already commanded. They listen to their organization and all their creeds and dogmas and completely ignore the truth.

This has been going on so long that most of the Christians today do not even realize they are being disobedient to God. They walk along comfortable in their "Salvation", never realizing they are wrong. That is what Organized Religion has done. It has convinced the world that it is okay to disregard the Word of God, as long as you belong to an Organization that claims they Believe.

Can you give me a name of a living prophet today? I mean no insult by this, simply curiosity.

__________________
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. JOHN 14:2

Posted by chuckster on 08-20-2001 12:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GSR13

Can you give me a name of a living prophet today? I mean no insult by this, simply curiosity.

Yes, I can. His name is Gordon B. Hinckley. He is at the head of the Church of Jesus Chrsit of Latter Day Saints (more commonly known as the Mormon church). In my religion, we believe that the truth about God, was lost during a time known as the apostasy. This was a time in which there were no prophets or apostles on the face of the earth, and the authority to act in God's name was also lost. We believe that the simple truths about the gospel were distorted and confused, etc. But in the early 1800's, the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored through a young man named Joseph Smith. Since then, there has been a living prophet on the earth to guide and direct His church.

quote:
The importance is having the Holy Ghost. Through this, you will receive Revelation of the Word for yourself.

How does one receive the holy ghost? The scripture we quoted in Acts 19:6 says,

ACTS 19:6
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The Holy Ghost is received by the laying on of hands. Someone who holds the authority to act in God's name needs to lay his hands upon the persons head and through a simple prayer, they give the gift of the Holy Ghost to that person.

Posted by Yorick on 08-23-2001 07:52 AM:

Originally posted by chuckster
His name is Gordon B. Hinckley. He is at the head of the Church of Jesus Chrsit of Latter Day Saints (more commonly known as the Mormon church).

sounds like just another guy with a top-level job, like the pope in the Christian Church. Was he born as a prophet or appointed to the position as a successor?
I mean, if appointed, he's not really a prophet, someone just told him he was. I could say Jon Edwards is a prophet, doesn't make it so.

The Holy Ghost is received by the laying on of hands. Someone who holds the authority to act in God's name needs to lay his hands upon the persons head and through a simple prayer, they give the gift of the Holy Ghost to that person.

Then what's with the cracker thing? (or wafer, if you prefer.)

Most ghosts are "unquiet souls" so hmm, what business does the Holy Ghost have on Earth that perhaps could be fulfilled so it can pas on ...

__________________
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Posted by chuckster on 08-23-2001 01:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

sounds like just another guy with a top-level job, like the pope in the Christian Church. Was he born as a prophet or appointed to the position as a successor?
I mean, if appointed, he's not really a prophet, someone just told him he was. I could say Jon Edwards is a prophet, doesn't make it so.

Then what's with the cracker thing? (or wafer, if you prefer.)

Most ghosts are "unquiet souls" so hmm, what business does the Holy Ghost have on Earth that perhaps could be fulfilled so it can pas on ...

it appears as though you are just looking to argue. If you really has questions about the church, or my beliefs, I would be pleased to answer them. But, I am not going to argue for the sake of arguing. It would be pointless.

Posted by Soul Raven on 08-23-2001 02:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
sounds like just another guy with a top-level job, like the pope in the Christian Church.

Catholic Church. The pope doesn't hold a monopoly on Christianity.

quote:
Was he born as a prophet or appointed to the position as a successor?
I mean, if appointed, he's not really a prophet, someone just told him he was. I could say Jon Edwards is a prophet, doesn't make it so.

Was Moses born as a prophet? Aaron? Peter? As far as I can remember, Moses was pretty much doing his own thing for most of his life, until the Burning Bush incident. I saw it in a movie, so it must be true.

And Aaron was the successor to Moses. Jesus named Peter his successor to guide the church after he left.

__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

Posted by K. Cannon on 08-23-2001 02:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
it appears as though you are just looking to argue. If you really has questions about the church, or my beliefs, I would be pleased to answer them. But, I am not going to argue for the sake of arguing. It would be pointless.

Don't mind Yorick, he's a pretty good fellow, but "full of jest." I'm sure he didn't mean to offend you.

I did not know that Mormons believed in being filled with the Holy Ghost, or spirit-filled, or however you wish to term it. Do they believe in speaking in tongues? Or is it sort of an individual thing?

Also, he asked, although tongue in cheek, about the wafer. However, it brings up a question: Do Mormons have the sacrament (or not sacrament depending) of the eucharist or communion?

Posted by chuckster on 08-23-2001 03:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

Don't mind Yorick, he's a pretty good fellow, but "full of jest." I'm sure he didn't mean to offend you.

I wasn't offended, I just don't like to argure.

quote:

I did not know that Mormons believed in being filled with the Holy Ghost, or spirit-filled, or however you wish to term it. Do they believe in speaking in tongues? Or is it sort of an individual thing?

Well, as for the Holy Ghost, we believe that one receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost after baptism. This just means that the person has the right to have the Holy Ghost with them always (as long as they are keeping their part of the baptismal covenant, like obeying the commandments, etc.)
[/b][/quote]

We believe in the gift of tounges and the other gifts of the spirit as well. (see: http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1 look at number 7)

I was a missionary in South America. When I got there I didn't know any Spanish, but within a month I was able to teach the Gospel effectively. I believe that this was because of the gift of tounges.

quote:

Also, he asked, although tongue in cheek, about the wafer. However, it brings up a question: Do Mormons have the sacrament (or not sacrament depending) of the eucharist or communion?

Yes, we believe in the sacrament. It is the most important part of Sunday worship. The sacrament is a way in which we renew our baptismal covenants with the Lord. The prayer used to bless the bread and water (we use water instead of wine; it really doesn't mater what is used, just what it represents) can be found in the Book of Mormon. The referance for the bread is here: http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/4 The reference for the water is here: http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/5

Posted by K. Cannon on 08-23-2001 03:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
Well, as for the Holy Ghost, we believe that one receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost after baptism.

Does your church baptise infants? or adults? Are you refering to a separate baptism in the Holy Ghost?

quote:
It is the most important part of Sunday worship. The sacrament is a way in which we renew our baptismal covenants with the Lord.

So y'all have it every Sunday?

Thanks for the answers and links.
Kelley

Posted by chuckster on 08-23-2001 03:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon

Does your church baptise infants? or adults? Are you refering to a separate baptism in the Holy Ghost?

The youngest age at which someone is baptized is 8 years old. Baptism is for repentance and remission of sins. They need to be accountable for their actions. An 8 year old understands more of right and wrong, and is therefore accountable. This was a revelation received by Joseph Smith (the first prophet of the church).

A person receives the Holy Ghost through a simple ordanance. Someone who holds the priesthood (authority to act in God's name) lays his hands on the persons head and gives a blessing. In the previous link, http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1 look at number 4.

Posted by K. Cannon on 08-23-2001 03:37 PM:

chuckster-thanks for the responses. Good Luck with your missionary work.
Kelley

Posted by chuckster on 08-23-2001 03:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Cannon
chuckster-thanks for the responses. Good Luck with your missionary work.
Kelley

no problem...

BTW, I am no longer a missionary. We serve for two years and thats it. I still share what I believe though.

Posted by Yorick on 08-23-2001 04:50 PM:

Originally posted by Soul Raven
Catholic Church. The pope doesn't hold a monopoly on Christianity.
oops. sorry bout that.

Was Moses born as a prophet? Aaron? Peter? As far as I can remember, Moses was pretty much doing his own thing for most of his life, until the Burning Bush incident. I saw it in a movie, so it must be true. And Aaron was the successor to Moses. Jesus named Peter his successor to guide the church after he left.
well okay, I must have been out of my skull. It happens.

Originally posted by chuckster
it appears as though you are just looking to argue.
not my intent. (not what I was doing in the tent either.) Just my little thought provocation.

__________________
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Posted by chuckster on 08-23-2001 05:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick

not my intent. (not what I was doing in the tent either.) Just my little thought provocation.

Its cool. I wont hold it against you.

BTW, I have no desire to hear about what you were doing in the tent...

Posted by Soul Raven on 08-23-2001 09:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
well okay, I must have been out of my skull. It happens.[/B]

I'll have you know that I am just getting over a cold, and I was laughing so hard over that comment I went into a huge coughing fit (you know the kind, where your face turns red and you can't breathe?), but as we used to say in water polo, "No blood, no foul".

(To self) "Alas, poor Yorick, he was out of his skull, Horatio..." <chuckle>

__________________
Soul Raven - "Sm� hjerne, stor gl�de"
Wherever you go, there you are.

Posted by Yorick on 08-27-2001 08:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Soul Raven
I was laughing so hard over that comment I went into a huge coughing fit

guess it's a good thing you weren't drinking anything ... might've come out your nose!

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Posted by septimus on 01-16-2002 04:10 PM:

muhahahahaha!
The Death of the Visor brings the rebirth of the Inane Ramble!

...Now I'm just punchy.

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