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Posted by foo fighter on 10-14-2001 11:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
so, who's responsible? are we currently killing those responsible? how'd an Afghan goat framer get ahold of anthrax and mail it from St. Petersburg Fla.?


Are we killing those responsible? Mostly yes. We already know that several Taliban leaders have been killed. We have hit several "military targets" and Terrorist Camps. And in the overall sense, we are engaging a nation that is known to harbor and train terrorists. So yes, we are killing those responsible. As for your Goat farmer, well if his ass is in the wrong place at the wrong time..that's his tough ****. At least it will send a message to the rest of these savages not to screw with the USA. That alone makes the bombing campaign worthwhile.

Besides, the bombing is only phase one. Phase two, we go in with Army Rangers and elements of the 101'st or 82nd Airborne.

__________________
My blog: Pocketfactory

Posted by dick-richardson on 10-14-2001 11:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Maybe, it's a radical sect of Mac users? I've always thought those guys were ripe for a jihad.

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by ernieba1 on 10-15-2001 01:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
If this were actual terrorism, why have only a few media outlets been affected so far? why hasn't every person in america with a valid postal address received a letter containing white powder?


shh. don't give them any ideas.

__________________
-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Posted by Yorick on 10-15-2001 02:35 AM:

Originally posted by Toby
Well, there was the Nevada Microsoft office as well. Maybe it's another unabomber after all. There's a MS connection at NBC. Hmm...any connection with Microsoft and United Media?
It's American Media, actually. Didn't know about the Nevada thing when I was writing my post (heard of it since tho).

Maybe, it's a radical sect of Mac users? I've always thought those guys were ripe for a jihad.
ha.


Originally posted by foo fighter
Are we killing those responsible? Mostly yes. We already know that several Taliban leaders have been killed. We have hit several "military targets" and Terrorist Camps. And in the overall sense, we are engaging a nation that is known to harbor and train terrorists. So yes, we are killing those responsible.
we're just bombing away at a nation which is 80% (I think that was the figure) controlled by a radical religious group which is harboring a person who is the leader of another radical religious group which is ALLEGEDLY responsible.
Let's not boil the eggs before they're laid, mkay?


As for your Goat farmer, well if his ass is in the wrong place
that'd be a donkey farmer, wouldn't it?

if his ass is in the wrong place at the wrong time..that's his tough ****.
I'll pass that message on to the World Trade center victims.

At least it will send a message to the rest of these savages not to screw with the USA. That alone makes the bombing campaign worthwhile.
"we are the USA! we are powerful! if you mess with us we will bomb you into oblivion! bwah ha ha ha!"
Ruling by fear is what dictators do. And terrorists.
"Savages" ? savages are fierce, furious, and uncivilized. They do whatever they want and damn the rest. Right now I couldn't tell who's a savage in this conflict.

Besides, the bombing is only phase one. Phase two, we go in with Army Rangers and elements of the 101'st or 82nd Airborne.
oh goody.

__________________
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Posted by agraham999 on 10-15-2001 02:49 AM:

First of all Dick...I don't like the suggestion that my remarks infer that I am a coward. Don't appreciate that at all.

Secondly...perhaps my use of the word paranoid was a little strong...but my point is that there is nothing wrong with a little extra caution in this time...and going on with our lives with blind indignance is not necessarily a good thing.

Another item...about my remark of the anthrax being terrorism. I don't care if it was a Christian fundamentalist or just a mentaly unstable creep...the anthrax is an act of terrorism...it is an act meant to inspire terror in our nation...hence terrorism.

Now for my comment about them possibly shutting down the postal system temporarily if these continue. I bet none of you ever thought that the entire airline industry would be grounded. Let me tell you this...if these letters continue to pop up or some other contagion being used via the postal system...they WILL stop mail delivery until law enforcement can evaluate the situation. I mean let's think about this...right now you can send a dangerous biological weapon through the US mail system and infect or kill people all for the price of a $.32 stamp. For $1000 you could mail 3,000 pieces of mail...which could contain smallpox. They've done computer modeling and let me tell you if smallpox hits an area...the chances of stopping it would practically impossible...meaning within days 30% of the population could be infected. You think they would keep the mail working then?

And recently I've heard from a lot of experts who say that unecessary travel right now could be hazardous. I've heard some very intelligent and highly respected experts tell us that security improvements are really just cosmetic. Weapons are still getting on airplanes. A lot of very trustworthy people are saying we should be cautious and careful. And by the way...I think our gov't is really sending us a lot of mixed messages. Go on with your business...and by the way...look out...any day now there may be another attack and we don't know what it is.

So you know what...I'm not saying don't go to the store...or don't go out to dinner...but I do think we need to take a little time to evaluate our situation and be cautious about what is going on...I'm not saying anyone should stop their life...but it is time to open your eyes and pay attention to what we have ignored for all too long. Professionals have been preaching for years that we were a siting target...airlines, water supplies, biological agents, chemical agents...and no one thought it could happen until now. I don't think I am unreasonable to think about the possibilities...to wonder about what could happen...because if we ignore them...we only have ourselves to blame for not being prepared. I'm not digging a bomb shelter or stocking up on water...but I am going to be a lot more cautious about where I go, how I get there, etc.

BTW...the anthrax may not be the best high tech terrorism...but make no mistake...it is an act of terrorism even if it isn't from a radical Islamic person...terrorism has many faces...and many of them are white. Perhaps this anthrax is a test for another upcoming attack...so wake up America...this is a wake up call...this isn't Hollywood. I can't believe that people give me a hard time for saying that this is the time to start opening our eyes and understanding that we are more vulnerable than we ever believed.

Posted by agraham999 on 10-15-2001 03:35 AM:

Yorick...BTW...one of the letters came from Malaysia...last time I checked Greyhound doesn't stop there.

And as far as filtering your water...water filters don't block every pollutant...if the toxin is below a certain micron size...it will go right through.

As far as why the news outlets were targeted and why aren't more people infected...because if it is an act of terrorism from someone like Al-Queda...the news media is the best way to get the attention of the American people and to let us know that we are at their mercy. If you want to show your target that they are vulnerable...you don't need to infect 30,000 people. Also...I've read a lot about biological terrorism over the years...you don't just release a toxin...you first do small trials to test the best ways to disperse the toxins. For example...if you want to infect thousands of people with a toxin...first you test a small group to learn what the best delivery system is...is the dosage strong enough...what is the response of the medical establishment...etc. If this is an attack from similar groups...I can tell you that you want the USA to KNOW...that we are vulnerable on many fronts...and that we can be attacked at any time...from all different directions.

As far as the economy...over 100,000 jobs lost directly due to the airlines...then let's remember the food service companies, the terminal services, Boeing, rubber companies, plastics companies, fuel companies, car rentals...all relying on the airlines. The attacks and loss of business have forced our local airport to actually lose a carrier. Jobs lost because of the airlines...even here...and that is just one industry.

And BTW...about the remark that people panic and treat the anthrax like it is the end of the world. I haven't seen that...and I am not thinking that way...but geez people...one death...now like 9-14 exposures...WAKE UP. This isn't the first biological attack on america. Something like ten years ago...a religious cult in Seattle (I believe) went around to multiple salad bars and infected them with Salmonela. Thousands of people got sick. Most people don't remember it and many forgot it. That attack did not change our perceptions of invulnerability. We look to build Star Wars and missile sheilds...and let me tell you...all the next attacks will be very low tech. You know you can buy all the materials necessary to cultivate and spread bio-weapons at your local hardware store.

Lastly...I'm a very reasonable person...I didnt' get where I am by making rash crazy decisions...but I am also a realist...and I'm not going to kid myself about real threats.

Posted by dick-richardson on 10-15-2001 03:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
First of all Dick...I don't like the suggestion that my remarks infer that I am a coward. Don't appreciate that at all...

Yet that is the distinct impression given by your post. Someone who locks them self in their house is a coward, not to mention an idiot (unless your leaving your mail outside, have your own well dug in your basement, and grow your food in your backyard - which would still leave you vulnerable to airborne assailants).

Interesting to see you backpedal on the terrorist front as well. First you claim that it couldn't be a group of high schoolers, now you claim that a group of high schoolers could qualify as a terrorist group. My point was that your implication that al-Qaida was responsible for the anthrax may not be correct - and certainly didn't qualify "paranoia."

As to kidding yourself about real threats - you have a real threat from drunk-drivers. Start walking.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by agraham999 on 10-15-2001 04:38 AM:

Wow Dick...fantastic reply...I'm not only a coward but I am an idiot as well. Can't remember me insulting you...impressive that in order to have a discussion you have to lower yourself to insults.

BTW...I didn't backpedal on the teenager/terrorism comment...go back and read it and don't take out of context...one exerpt was

"The envelopes have come from multiple postmarks, including New Jersey and Florida. This is no teenager. "

My point being not that a teenager can't be a terrorist...but that this isn't a teenager prank...this took resources and skills most teenagers just don't have. I think you can take the information provided so far to see that whoever did this had resources internationally...had the ability to culture anthrax...had the ability to possibly travel...etc.

So smartass...I didn't say that teenagers can't be terrorist...I simply made the point that this is probably not a teenage prank.

And as far as "real threats," I think when I get mixed messages from our gov't telling us to go back to our lives...oh but beware the next couple of weeks...cause something may happen...so don't make any uneccesary travel...I take that quite seriously. Yeah...I'm staying home...that doesn't mean I lock the doors and never leave...but I'm not getting on a plane until I feel the security is worked out...and I don't think I am a coward for wanting to take some precautions to keep my family safe.

And by the way...my hypothetical query about whether similar terrorists are responsible...I don't think that is any different than our gov't telling us the first days of the attack (without any proof) that Osama and his group were responsible. It takes money, resources, contacts overseas...one letter was postmarked just 7 days from the attack...just happened that they were sent to Florida (where the terrorists were), New Jersey (where others were), etc...I think it is a reasonable conclusion...although it may not be them.

You know...I just thought it would be an interesting discussion. Try and keep from being a jerk or insulting. You can disagree...but try and have a little respect. I've NEVER insulted you in the past or inferred you are an idiot.

Posted by foo fighter on 10-15-2001 04:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
...controlled by a radical religious group which is harboring a person who is the leader of another radical religious group which is ALLEGEDLY responsible.


Uh, I think "harboring" is the key word here, Yorick. The Taliban is not only providing Bin Laden a safe haven, but they have also supported him. And lets face it, the Taliban aren't exactly members of Greenpeace. As for Osama's "alleged" guilt...HA! He practically admitted to committing this dead in his taped speech.


quote:
Let's not boil the eggs before they're laid, mkay?


Five thousand eggs lay buried in the rubble at WTC.

quote:
I'll pass that message on to the World Trade center victims.


I wish they were alive to receive your message. Are you actually trying to compare our actions against those of the terrorists? Please spare me.

Pacifism isn't always the path to enlightenment. So please stop trying to pretend you are somehow more civilized for not condoning aggression. Sometimes it takes enlightenment to use violence as a means of protecting the innocent from terrorists.

quote:
"we are the USA! we are powerful! if you mess with us we will bomb you into oblivion! bwah ha ha ha!"


And what policy do you suggest..."Here is my ass..feel free to kick it"?!?

quote:
Ruling by fear is what dictators do. And terrorists.
"Savages" ? savages are fierce, furious, and uncivilized. They do whatever they want and damn the rest.




quote:
Right now I couldn't tell who's a savage in this conflict.


How noble of you. I am truly in awe of your enlightened mind. I wonder if you would still feel this way if your place of employment received a letter/package containing Anthrax?

__________________
My blog: Pocketfactory

Posted by dick-richardson on 10-15-2001 05:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
Wow Dick...fantastic reply...I'm not only a coward but I am an idiot as well. Can't remember me insulting you...impressive that in order to have a discussion you have to lower yourself to insults.

1. My name is Josh
2. You may or may not be a coward.
3. You may or may not be an idiot.
Locking yourself in your house would give evidence of 2 & 3.

Calling you a coward is a character assessment. If you don't like it, take a look at how you present yourself.

As well, I have had plenty of discussions where I don't "lower myself to insults." But I always call it like I see it. There is absolutely nothing you can do to protect yourself. It's a game of minimizing risks. Locking yourself in your house is idiotic. It doesn't minimize any more risks than doing what you would normally do (going to work, eating at McDonald's, etc.)

quote:
BTW...I didn't backpedal on the teenager/terrorism comment...go back and read it and don't take out of context...one exerpt was

"The envelopes have come from multiple postmarks, including New Jersey and Florida. This is no teenager. "

It very well could be a group of teenagers. Hell, this could be one smart postal worker with access to anthrax and a mean disposition toward Arabs.

quote:
My point being not that a teenager can't be a terrorist...but that this isn't a teenager prank...this took resources and skills most teenagers just don't have. I think you can take the information provided so far to see that whoever did this had resources internationally...had the ability to culture anthrax...had the ability to possibly travel...etc.

Which doesn't rule out teenagers w/backing.

quote:
So smartass...

But then again, a very good character assessment.

I'll admit I'm a smartass if you'll admit you're a coward.
quote:
I didn't say that teenagers can't be terrorist...I simply made the point that this is probably not a teenage prank.

Alright. My point was that this may or may not be the result of al-Qaida

quote:
And as far as "real threats," I think when I get mixed messages from our gov't telling us to go back to our lives...oh but beware the next couple of weeks...cause something may happen...so don't make any uneccesary travel...I take that quite seriously. Yeah...I'm staying home...that doesn't mean I lock the doors and never leave...but I'm not getting on a plane until I feel the security is worked out...and I don't think I am a coward for wanting to take some precautions to keep my family safe.

I understand that.

quote:
And by the way...my hypothetical query about whether similar terrorists are responsible...I don't think that is any different than our gov't telling us the first days of the attack (without any proof) that Osama and his group were responsible.

Your memory isn't that good. It was the media touting bin Laden as the culprit. Every gov't official I heard was calling for investigation.
quote:
It takes money, resources, contacts overseas...one letter was postmarked just 7 days from the attack...just happened that they were sent to Florida (where the terrorists were), New Jersey (where others were), etc...I think it is a reasonable conclusion...although it may not be them.

Then, despite the rocky discourse, it appears we may be on the same page.

quote:
You know...I just thought it would be an interesting discussion. Try and keep from being a jerk or insulting.

I am who I am. I have little to no tolerance for stupidity, cowardice, or bullying.
quote:
You can disagree...but try and have a little respect. I've NEVER insulted you in the past or inferred you are an idiot.

And that inference only holds true if you have locked yourself in your house.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Yorick on 10-15-2001 05:32 AM:

Originally posted by foo fighter
Uh, I think "harboring" is the key word here, Yorick. The Taliban is not only providing Bin Laden a safe haven, but they have also supported him.
don't forget the US supported the Taliban in the past.

I wish they were alive to receive your message. Are you actually trying to compare our actions against those of the terrorists? Please spare me.
wait a freaking second here. You noted that if an Afghani were in the wrong place at the wrong time because our country is bombing the hell out of his country, it's his own lookout. The people in the World trade center were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm not comparing anyone's actions here. Anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
War is supposed to mean killing. The Geneva treaties were written to restrict that to soldiers and prevent civilian deaths. With apparent indiscriminate bombing the U.S. is behaving poorly.

Pacifism isn't always the path to enlightenment. So please stop trying to pretend you are somehow more civilized for not condoning aggression. Sometimes it takes enlightenment to use violence as a means of protecting the innocent from terrorists.
I don't find violence to be an acceptable response in ANY situation. Your comments made you sound like you want these people to die.

And what policy do you suggest..."Here is my ass..feel free to kick it"?!?
We're supposed to be better than the bad guys here. Do you really want your country to be a big bully?


How noble of you. I am truly in awe of your enlightened mind. I wonder if you would still feel this way if your place of employment received a letter/package containing Anthrax?
get off your high horse. I never claimed at any time to be "enlightened." Your comments paint you as a hawk and mine paint me as a dove. Bush only gave it a month before he started blowing things up. I don't think that was enough.

__________________
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Posted by agraham999 on 10-15-2001 05:36 AM:

Josh said:

"I am who I am. I have little to no tolerance for stupidity, cowardice, or bullying."

Actually that sounds like the kind of statement a bully would make. Funny...you behave like a bully.

Saying that I plan on staying home for awhile does not necessarily mean I am locking my doors and staying inside...far from it. And you know...minimizing my risks is exactely what I am doing...simply keeping my travel to a minimum until I personally feel safer. I never said I was locking my doors.

Actually my memory is quite good...from the beginning MANY gov't officials named him as suspect #1 right from the start. I do remember that while they told us they were going to investigate...he was the primary target from the first day. The media shares the responsibility for this...but the gov't did their share of spin.

You know very little about me personally to make any assumptions on my character...and I don't think you can draw enough from a chat to make any comments of the like. If you really want to call me a coward...you really should get to know me first. Go ahead and call me. My numbers on the site...I've never hidden behind a server. Oh, and if you are so damn smart...enlighten me on why you think so?

BTW...take a look at the way you present yourself. I hardly find it a stellar endorsement of your character.

Posted by dick-richardson on 10-15-2001 05:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
Josh said:

"I am who I am. I have little to no tolerance for stupidity, cowardice, or bullying."

Actually that sounds like the kind of statement a bully would make. Funny...you behave like a bully.

Do you feel bullied? I'm sorry. Here's your lunch money back.

Funny how candor get relegated to "bullying" by those who can't handle not thinking themselves the apple in another's eye.

quote:
Saying that I plan on staying home for awhile does not necessarily mean I am locking my doors and staying inside...far from it. And you know...minimizing my risks is exactely what I am doing...simply keeping my travel to a minimum until I personally feel safer. I never said I was locking my doors.

My misunderstanding then. I associated the term "home" with "house."

quote:
Actually my memory is quite good...from the beginning MANY gov't officials named him as suspect #1 right from the start.

Not the ones that had any power to do the actual investigation (i.e. Bush, Powell, even Giuliani).
quote:
I do remember that while they told us they were going to investigate...he was the primary target from the first day. The media shares the responsibility for this...but the gov't did their share of spin.

There is a difference between naming suspects and placing blame.

quote:
You know very little about me personally to make any assumptions on my character...and I don't think you can draw enough from a chat to make any comments of the like.

You're right. I can only draw conclusion about your personality by the comments you type at your computer.
quote:
If you really want to call me a coward...you really should get to know me first. Go ahead and call me. My numbers on the site...I've never hidden behind a server. Oh, and if you are so damn smart...enlighten me on why you think so?

I think it's rather evident from my posts. Shall I call you and read them to you?

quote:
BTW...take a look at the way you present yourself. I hardly find it a stellar endorsement of your character.

I never claimed my character was stellar in the first place. I do claim honesty as an attribute, however.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by agraham999 on 10-15-2001 06:02 AM:

I don't give a **** whether you agree with me or not...I don't care if you like me or hate me...but I had hoped that people could be on a discussion board and not behave like schmucks. I expect too much. I guess you are just too smart for me. I quiver from your mental capacity. You must be a highly successful person whose mental contributions to society are registered right up there with all the great scholars of the world.

Sure call me anytime...read away. I consider bullying those who choose to disagree with another individual by lowering the discussion to insults and innuendo. Honesty...your attribute? Big difference between honesty and arrogance...and you have that in spades.

Posted by dick-richardson on 10-15-2001 06:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
I don't give a **** whether you agree with me or not...I don't care if you like me or hate me...but I had hoped that people could be on a discussion board and not behave like schmucks. I expect too much.

I'm sorry to disappoint. For the record - I vehemently disagree with you. I don't care enough to hate you, but have seen you charitably contribute to the victims. Then there are a couple of your posts in this thread that give me a very different impression of you.
quote:
I guess you are just too smart for me. I quiver from your mental capacity. You must be a highly successful person whose mental contributions to society are registered right up there with all the great scholars of the world.

What does my mental capacity have to do with anything?
quote:
Sure call me anytime...read away. I consider bullying those who choose to disagree with another individual by lowering the discussion to insults and innuendo.

You have a very...unique...definition of "bullying," then. Last I checked it had something to do with intimidation.
quote:
Honesty...your attribute? Big difference between honesty and arrogance...and you have that in spades.

There is a big difference between honesty and arrogance. I wasn't dealing with the second, but since you brought it up - I let others draw their own conclusions.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by agraham999 on 10-15-2001 06:25 AM:

"I'm sorry to disappoint. For the record - I vehemently disagree with you. I don't care enough to hate you, but have seen you charitably contribute to the victims. Then there are a couple of your posts in this thread that give me a very different impression of you."

What are you talking about? What does my compassion for anyone have to do with anything in this thread. Please enlighten me as to my impression...because I don't see what this thread has anything to do with my behavior towards the victims.

Posted by dick-richardson on 10-15-2001 06:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
What are you talking about? What does my compassion for anyone have to do with anything in this thread.

They both contribute to forming an impression of you.
quote:
Please enlighten me as to my impression...because I don't see what this thread has anything to do with my behavior towards the victims.

This thread leaves an impression of you (in my mind) that is contradictory to the impression given by being courageous enough to be charitable. Between your frequent use of the term "paranoia" and your statement that you were staying home (which I took to mean in your home), you came across as a coward.

Is it any more clear the 2nd time around?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by agraham999 on 10-15-2001 06:48 AM:

Whatever. How old are you? College student right? Well for someone who knows nothing about me...you sure have an amazing power to deduce the character of a human being. This thread doesn't say anything about who I am as a person...but whatever...believe what you want.

Jeeze...

Posted by dick-richardson on 10-15-2001 06:54 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by agraham999
you sure have an amazing power to deduce the character of a human being

No more than any idiot off the street who responds to things as they appear. There may indeed be a difference between reality and impression. I'm only working with what I'm given. For all I know, you could be 63 y/o woman with cataracts beating the keyboard with your toothless head, forming words and coherent sentances by mere chance.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Yorick on 10-15-2001 08:09 AM:

fer cryin out loud! what's with the name calling?

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