VisorCentral.com - news abour the color Visor ???

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Visor & Deluxe (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)
-- news abour the color Visor ??? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=8565)

Posted by Toby on 10-11-2000 01:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by foo fighter
Sorry for not making myself clear on the audio issue, Toby. I was indeed referring to "Built-in" audio, as apposed to the modular concept. No offense intended.

If you say so.

quote:
Next will come the PocketOffice examples...whatever.

quote:
Nope! That's a separate issue based on bundled software. As I've said many times before, Palm and Handspring could easily counter this threat by simply bundling QuickSheet and SmatDoc.

Sure, but if not everyone uses them, it doesn't make much sense to bundle them since it'll increment the price.

quote:
Anyway, we've strayed way off topic. Would anyone else care to guess what features will be available on the Prism?

I doubt if it'll be significantly different than the current line. It'll be a color Visor with the faster processor and PalmOS 3.5.x. Other than that, I doubt if there'll be much that changes.

Visorholic: We obviously differ on the meaning of capability. To me, the option to expand means it is capable of performing the function. It just doesn't require one that doesn't want that function to pay for it. I'm sure that whenever the Palm platform switches to the StrongARM, they'll likely start building in more audio functionality as well. Hopefully, they'll have enough sense to follow the KISS principle then too. The iPAQ and some of the other Pocket PCs are undoubtedly cool, but they're not what I need/want a PDA for at the moment. I kinda like having the option of either, and wouldn't want either to try to start cloning the other.

Posted by raptor on 10-11-2000 04:38 PM:

I think all this talk about MP3 capability adding more to the cost is a little silly. I really just believe that it's naturally 'built-in' with the hardware/software combo, ya know? I mean, when one buys a modern desktop/laptop PC nowadays, they get natural MP3 capability without any added cost.

It is my understanding (and I can easily be wrong on this) that PPCs do what they do with MP3's simply because they have better hardware and an OS that can handle the file format appropriately. To me it seems that the added cost for most PPCs comes from the screen hardware and memory capacities (heck, the Palm IIIc was priced at nearly $500 at one point, and the Visor Prism is said to be releasing around the same).

The reason these modules are costing so much (and the reason stand-alones cost so much) is largely because of internal memory, and partially because of the specialized hardware involved. A standard PC simply uses components that are naturally used for other functions (the PC's processor, the PC's sound system, and a piece of software) to decode and play the files. A standalone (and a Springboard module) requires its own hardward/software to be able to read, handle, and play the format. They also require a non-trivial amount of rather scarce memory to store the data, thus pushing to cost up.

Quite simply I believe that MP3 capabilities can be added to Palm devices simply when the hardware reaches a suitable level (both audio output and processing power, if it's not there already). Once this level is reached, audio playback will come naturally and without much extra cost.

The question about that lies in whether or not it's an OS/Processor thing or just an audio thing. If it's just an audio thing, then putting a better sound system in the unit should be suitable. However, if the Dragonball processors can't handle whatever processes it takes to decode the compressed music without outside help, or if the Palm OS cannot be coerced into dealing with a non .PDB type format within the handheld itself, then it'll be difficult. It would mean a rewrite of the OS and a redesign of the hardware. That does not come easy (compatibility has to be ensured with all pre-existing Palm apps with the new OS and/or new processor).

Personally, music playback isn't important to me. Why? Well, I already have a Rio 300 that I got for $50 nearly a year ago (memory costs more than I paid for the thing). That's not the point however, as I do believe that multimedia in handhelds is, at this time, merely a luxury, not a necessity. That will change, just as it changed with the personal computer years ago. I just don't feel we're there yet.

Now, do I think that the Prism will come with MP3 support within the unit itself? Probably not. Simply for the fact that I don't think Handspring would want to alienate two of its third party supporters by cutting their market out from under them after only a few months.

All this is, of course, a matter of opinion.

__________________
-Richard Powell

"Nice guys may finish last, but you know, the company's much better back here."

Posted by John Nowak on 10-11-2000 05:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by foo fighter

Where, exactly, do you feel I'm wrong. My point is that the Visor requires an MP3 module to play MP3 audio. [/B]

You claimed that the Palm OS did not support e-books until you were called on it. You claimed that WinCE had "lots" of third party software until you were called on it (Incidentally, I count roughly 150 programs available on Pocketgear.com -- Palmgear averages slightly over ten a day). And you did not change "does it support MP3" to "does it support MP3 out of the box" until you were called on it.

Posted by lennonhead on 10-11-2000 05:27 PM:

quote:
by foo fighter:
I just hope Handspring doesn't offer the Prism online only!

Yeah, it's harder to return it 3 or 4 times!

I think there is a big advantage to adding a software MP3 player, then all you need to do is buy memory if you want to listen to music. Also apps could use it for improved sound. You don't need a lot of memory for highly compressed MP3s. You could add voices and sound clips to games. Maybe even some low data rate music if you wanted. I see a major advantage in this. Now all they need to add is a speaker/audio jack and we'd be all set!

Bundled apps are very important and don't raise the price of a device very much. You can buy an iMac with a DV editor, word processor, web browser, movie player, and a game or two. This makes a lot of sense for consumers who get more for their money. The point is that computer manufacturers have been doing this for years. It benefits the application developers too, since most of them make more than one program. A person uses the bundled app and when they see another program they want, they are more likely to buy it from a familiar name than from a competitor.

C'mon Handspring, we want a kick @ss color game (w/ MP3 sound) bundled with our color Visors!

Posted by Visorholic on 10-11-2000 08:08 PM:

I don't think that your gonna get a software mp3 player out of a palm device with a 30mhz processor. The PPC's use 150mhz and above processors, that why the batteries only last a few hours.

And as the the Visor being audio capable let me just say this. If you are claiming the Visor is capable of audio due to its use of a mp3 module, well them the Visor is capable of anything. You could hook up a springboard module and a gas generator and say that the Visor is capable of running on gas instead of batteries. The Visor is capable of anything you can think of if you include the module. Its kinda like saying that my piece of crap truck is capable of doing 90 on the highway, that is, its capapble as long as you've got a towtruck hooked up to it pulling it along at 90. The Visor is not audio capable, the module is capable, not the visor though. If you buy a visor in the store right off the shelf its not audio capable, just like if you were to buy my truck I could tell you that its capable of passing people on the highway, but only if you buy a new bigger motor, but then thats not really capable now is it?

-Visorholic

Posted by Toby on 10-11-2000 08:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Visorholic
And as the the Visor being audio capable let me just say this. If you are claiming the Visor is capable of audio due to its use of a mp3 module, well them the Visor is capable of anything.

Well, not anything, but certainly a lot. Now you're getting it, though.

quote:
You could hook up a springboard module and a gas generator and say that the Visor is capable of running on gas instead of batteries.

Well, except that I don't think the Visor can draw power from the Springboard slot. Only vice versa. So, no, you really couldn't say that. Somebody did post a neat photo of a Visor running off of a fuel air cell the other day, though.

quote:
The Visor is capable of anything you can think of if you include the module.

Within the bounds of its engineering capabilities, yeah, that's right.

quote:
Its kinda like saying that my piece of crap truck is capable of doing 90 on the highway, that is, its capapble as long as you've got a towtruck hooked up to it pulling it along at 90.

No, it's really not like saying that since your "piece of crap truck" likely wasn't engineered with that in mind.

quote:
The Visor is not audio capable, the module is capable, not the visor though.

Play semantical games all you want. The expansion capability is still there. Your analogy is like saying the iPAQ isn't capable of expansion since it requires an add-on sleeve to accept CF or PCMCIA cards.

quote:
If you buy a visor in the store right off the shelf its not audio capable, just like if you were to buy my truck I could tell you that its capable of passing people on the highway, but only if you buy a new bigger motor, but then thats not really capable now is it?

No, it's like saying the iPAQ is CF or PCMCIA capable since you can get an external sleeve to utilize that capability.

Posted by Visorholic on 10-11-2000 09:38 PM:

Hehe, ok I know everyone else is sick of this bickering over something this silly... but I'm not, I like arguing over things like this.

quote:
No, it's like saying the iPAQ is CF or PCMCIA capable since you can get an external sleeve to utilize that capability.

There it is, "external sleeve to utilize that capability" so in other words the capability of the iPAQ to use CF is built in, you just need a expansion sleeve to "utiliz that capability".
However on the Visor this is not the case, the MP3 module does all the work. It would be different if the Visor had the built in capability to process MP3's and the module merely output the sound, and acted as a storage medium, but the MP3 module merely gets its power from the visor and then provides an optional interface through the Visor, the MP3's are on my module, the module processes the MP3's, and it then outputs them through the headphone jack. If it wasn't for the form factor I could wire my Diamond rio to the batteries in the visor and essentially be doing the same thing as the Soundsgood, it would only lack a visor interface.

You right about the visor not being able to pull power from the SB slot, that was a bad example. But me point is, that by including the springboard in the capabilities of the Visor you essentially can say the Visor is capable of doing pretty much anything, which is misleading in some cases. Many people when I tell them that the Visor is audio capable, won't be thinking about a module, they will think I'm saying the the actual Visor itself is capable of it.

-Visorholic
And the thread goes on.

Posted by John Nowak on 10-11-2000 10:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Visorholic

There it is, "external sleeve to utilize that capability" so in other words the capability of the iPAQ to use CF is built in, you just need a expansion sleeve to "utiliz that capability".
[/B]

That's an assumption, and the difference is basically irrelevant anyway: either way you can't do it out of the box. It might be more proper to say that "The iPaq supports CF with a separately-purchased adapator sleeve" and "the Visor supports MP3 playback with a third-party module."

Posted by Rob on 10-11-2000 11:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Visorholic
Hehe, ok I know everyone else is sick of this bickering over something this silly... but I'm not, I like arguing over things like this.

quote:
It would be different if the Visor had the built in capability to process MP3's and the module merely output the sound, and acted as a storage medium

So let me get this straight, you would be happier with a Visor that had ability to process MP3s internally, but no audio output without an additional module? So then when you plug in this audio output/memory module that had no processor on it, you would not be able to play your gameboy games or whatever, since the poor little StrongArm processor is too busy decoding MP3s?

If I need a module for audio output and/or enough memory to hold a reasonable amount of MP3s anyway, then why not just go ahead and stick a dedicated processor on it so I can use the Visor's processor to do other stuff? Sure it'll make for a costlier module, but it will also mean the PDA itself is cheaper for the majority of users who won't use it for MP3s, and you'll be able to 'multitask' (yes, I'm using the term loosely...please don't start a semantic war over that, too!)

<END BEATING DEAD HORSE> (please!)

Posted by [email protected] on 10-11-2000 11:42 PM:

k. about the ipac, the correct way it is, is "the ipaq is capable of utalizing an expansion card to access cf cards". and its the same way with the visor. it is capable of utalizing a springboard module which can access mp3s. the capability IS NOT BUILT IN.

so there

Posted by Nhatman on 10-12-2000 02:12 AM:

so does that mean my visor has built-in batteries?

Posted by Visorholic on 10-12-2000 04:24 AM:

quote:
Rob said:
So let me get this straight, you would be happier with a Visor that had ability to process MP3s internally, but no audio output without an additional module? So then when you plug in this audio output/memory module that had no processor on it, you would not be able to play your gameboy games or whatever, since the poor little StrongArm processor is too busy decoding MP3s?

Wait wait wait, stop the train, I was just making an example, I agree, I don't want the Visor to have built in MP3 decoder or anything like that. I like the visor the way it is. I think the use of the module is a way better way to do it. I stated this in my second post. I was just making an example of audio capability in the Visor, in the same way the iPAQ has CF capability.

Just wanted to staighten that up. Now we can recommence beating the dead horse.

-Visorholic

Posted by george_vc on 10-12-2000 05:30 AM:

I think handspring will push the Visor Prism as a gaming machine. If so, I would expect this means improved audio. That does not mean Mp3. The question is, will the improved audio be in the gaming springboards, or improvements into the internal speakers.

Posted by Toby on 10-12-2000 03:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Visorholic
Hehe, ok I know everyone else is sick of this bickering over something this silly... but I'm not, I like arguing over things like this.

This seemed pretty obvious.

quote:
No, it's like saying the iPAQ is CF or PCMCIA capable since you can get an external sleeve to utilize that capability.

quote:
There it is, "external sleeve to utilize that capability" so in other words the capability of the iPAQ to use CF is built in, you just need a expansion sleeve to "utiliz that capability".

No, the capability is not built-in in the same way that mp3 capability is not built-in to the visor. You want to set one's capabilities as "what it has fresh out of the box", and yet grant the other the capabilities with an expansion option? Intellectually dishonest.

quote:
However on the Visor this is not the case, the MP3 module does all the work.

Except for the interface, file management, and transfer portions.

quote:
It would be different if the Visor had the built in capability {...}

This is a diversion which you keep bringing up. You're talking about what it can do "fresh out of the box" whereas, I'm talking about what it's capable of doing with the right expansion card.

quote:
If it wasn't for the form factor I could wire my Diamond rio to the batteries in the visor and essentially be doing the same thing as the Soundsgood, it would only lack a visor interface.

And the ability to manage files and transfer files through the Visor.

quote:
You right about the visor not being able to pull power from the SB slot, that was a bad example.

You seem to be making quite a few of those.

quote:
But me point is, that by including the springboard in the capabilities of the Visor you essentially can say the Visor is capable of doing pretty much anything, which is misleading in some cases.

No, it's not. The visor is capable of doing whatever someone can dream up to plug into the springboard slot which can utilize the capabilites designed into it.

quote:
Many people when I tell them that the Visor is audio capable, won't be thinking about a module, they will think I'm saying the the actual Visor itself is capable of it.

If you tell them like that? Sure. Just like if you tell somebody that the iPAQ can handle CF or PCMCIA cards (without informing them of the sleeves), they'll think that the iPAQ itself is capable of it (even though it isn't "out of the box").

Posted by Visorholic on 10-12-2000 04:58 PM:

Toby, you seem to be taking this way too personally, in my last few posts I was just arguing for the sake of arguing. And if you think this argument is so silly, then why are you still here arguing it, if its so beneath you.

What this really comes down to is opinion of where to draw the line when it comes to capability. I feel that the iPaq is capable of CF, because all it requires to take CF is a expansion sleeve, the sleeve does little more than allow for the form of the CF card and properly wire out the pins from the iPaq to the CF. I consider the visor not audio capable because, the MP3 module does all the actual audio work. Ok sure, the interface and file transfer ability is there, I never argued it wasn't. But that has nothing to do with its being capable of audio. The mp3 module does all the audio work, it has all the ability to output audio, the visor has none.
So I'm in fact not being as you said "intellectually dishonest". I've clearly drawn, what in my opinion, is the line of capability.

So lighten up Toby, its just a disagreement(and a small one at that), no need to get your panties all in a bunch.

-Visorholic

Posted by dtplink on 10-12-2000 05:17 PM:

Handspring to debut new Visors in Tokyo on Monday. The news is at this link:

http://news.pdalive.com/pdalive070720091.html

Posted by Toby on 10-12-2000 05:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Visorholic
Toby, you seem to be taking this way too personally,

Appearances can be deceiving, I suppose. They can also be colored by the observer.

quote:
in my last few posts I was just arguing for the sake of arguing.

No problem with that in and of itself.

quote:
And if you think this argument is so silly, then why are you still here arguing it, if its so beneath you.

Don't believe I said that the argument was silly or beneath me.

quote:
What this really comes down to is opinion of where to draw the line when it comes to capability.

We agree there, however your line seems to be variable and logically inconsistent.

quote:
I feel that the iPaq is capable of CF, because all it requires to take CF is a expansion sleeve, the sleeve does little more than allow for the form of the CF card and properly wire out the pins from the iPaq to the CF. I consider the visor not audio capable because, the MP3 module does all the actual audio work. Ok sure, the interface and file transfer ability is there, I never argued it wasn't. But that has nothing to do with its being capable of audio. The mp3 module does all the audio work, it has all the ability to output audio, the visor has none.

OK, you've made your position clear. You're obviously more forgiving of shortcomings of the iPAQ than of the Visor. Curious question, what PDA do you use?

quote:
So I'm in fact not being as you said "intellectually dishonest". I've clearly drawn, what in my opinion, is the line of capability.

OK, I won't call you "intellectually dishonest" since it seems to hurt your feelings. You're just a bit logically inconsistent and prone to move your argument around just to keep things going.

quote:
So lighten up Toby,

Who said that I was heavy or dark?

quote:
its just a disagreement{...}

I'm well aware of that.

quote:
no need to get your panties all in a bunch.

No panties (bunched or otherwise). Perhaps you shouldn't go looking to argue for the sake of arguing if you're not prepared for any potential rebuttals?

Posted by homer on 10-12-2000 06:05 PM:

Wow...a heated debate and I haven't been posting!

One problem with a lot of hardware and software today is that it tries to be everything to everyone. This usually makes for a cumbersome solution. The Palm OS is great because it is SIMPLE. The device does pretty much everything that it's target audience needs out of a device.

As mentioned many times in this post, MP3 audio requires two radical changes: Faster processor and LOTS of memory. As also mentioned, the hardware will evolve over time and, naturally, the MP3 ability will follow as well.

quote:

Bundled apps are very important and don't raise the price of a device very much. You can buy an iMac with a DV editor, word processor, web browser, movie player, and a game or two. This makes a lot of sense for consumers who get more for their money. The point is that computer manufacturers have been doing this for years.

This ONLY works if the hardware company (such as Apple) makes the software of if the OS company (windows) makes the software. Bundled software sucks. It dilutes the market with second-rate software. Companies that bundle software do so not to provide REAL value, but, rather, perceived value. And they can do it because they can loose money in the short-run to gain market share.

There will never be GOOD office products for the PocketPC because Microsoft has wiped out those industries by providing bundled applications. People are stupid. FREE software pretty much always wins regardless of quality. That's why we are stuck in a world of idiots who only know three programs: Powerpoint, Outlook, and Word. Ugh.

__________________
We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
-David Byrne

Posted by HostileJava on 10-12-2000 07:26 PM:

I know that my VDX can't play mp3's but it does have built in audio capabilities. If you don't believe me. Go to the datebook app make an appointment for yourself for an hour from now and turn on the alarm. If that doesn't satisfy you then turn up the game sound and launch somthing like Hardball or Subhunt.

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