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-- New PDA: Sony, Handera, or Handspring? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=20973)
Posted by matthewjp on 01-21-2002 11:11 PM:
New PDA: Sony, Handera, or Handspring?
If you were going to buy a new PDA today, what brand would you buy?
__________________
Sic transit gloria mundi.
Posted by Tonewiz2k on 01-21-2002 11:47 PM:
T615!!! It shall be mine (eventually).
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"Take me where my future's lyin', St. Elmo's Fire." - John Parr
Posted by dkessler on 01-22-2002 12:45 AM:
Need more choices
None of the above 
Last Friday I ordered a Sharp Zaurus SL-5000D (developer model).
The consumer version (SL-5500) will release in Feb or March. Way more horsepower than any current PalmOS device (206MHz StrongARM), dual expansion slots (CF + SD/MMC), built in thumbboard, and I can donwload full source code for the entire operating system and all the built in apps!
__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
Posted by dnottingham on 01-22-2002 03:37 AM:
What OS is the Sharp Zaurus running?
Posted by Tonewiz2k on 01-22-2002 03:41 AM:
Linux, open source everything. It does look quite impressive. How much does a developer's unit run?
__________________
"Take me where my future's lyin', St. Elmo's Fire." - John Parr
Posted by foo fighter on 01-22-2002 05:48 AM:
My Clie T615 should be arriving tomorrow or Wednesday. It's just too cool!
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My blog: Pocketfactory
Posted by bookrats on 01-22-2002 06:20 AM:
Not a hypothetical question...
I'm buying a Sony Clie T615C tomorrow.
__________________
Jeff Meyer
"And he died like he lived: with his mouth wide open."
Posted by purplemd on 01-22-2002 08:47 AM:
I bought a Sony Clie 610C today @ CompUSA for $249.
I just couldn't help myself....
I'm still going to hangout at VisorCentral and the FlashAdapter Yahoo Group
Visor people seem nicer than Clie people ;-)
Posted by dkessler on 01-22-2002 12:28 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Tonewiz2k
Linux, open source everything. It does look quite impressive. How much does a developer's unit run?
$400 for an SL-5000D (developer) unit. Consumer versions are expected to price between $500 - $600 and will have double the RAM (64MB vs. 32MB in the developer units).__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
Posted by foo fighter on 01-22-2002 02:24 PM:
dkessler, how do you think these Linux based devices will stack up against PocketPC? Are they good enough to give Redmond a run for its money?
Personally, I think PPC is going to win the high-end and corporate markets. I see linux serving mainly as an embedded OS for specialized devices. Perhaps in the vertical market.
__________________
My blog: Pocketfactory
Posted by bookrats on 01-22-2002 03:41 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by foo fighter
Personally, I think PPC is going to win the high-end and corporate markets. I see linux serving mainly as an embedded OS for specialized devices. Perhaps in the vertical market.
That's where Linux gotten a good foothold, in the embedded market. Part of it is the speed at which drivers for new chips and hardware make it out in the Linux development world.
Off-Topic: In the PC world, I think the one place Linux (and other free Unix systems) will (and are) making a real mark is the server market. Microsoft will probably own the desktop for a while longer; but the indications that Windows is losing the server market wars are deepening. (Gee, slower, less expensive, less secure... I wonder why that is?)__________________
Jeff Meyer
"And he died like he lived: with his mouth wide open."
Posted by sshapiro on 01-22-2002 05:09 PM:
I picked up the $249 Sony 610 at CompUSA for my wife. Seems like a nice unit and the price was right.
Anybody know what the new Sony 615 offers over the Sony 610 in addition to more memory?
Steve
Posted by bookrats on 01-22-2002 05:28 PM:
615C advantages over 610C
quote:
Originally posted by sshapiro
I picked up the $249 Sony 610 at CompUSA for my wife. Seems like a nice unit and the price was right.
Anybody know what the new Sony 615 offers over the Sony 610 in addition to more memory?
Stepping back a bit, not much, and much of it is pretty subjective:
- Form factor (that's probably the biggie)
- 16MB Memory
- Screen: sharper image, but the colors aren't as vibrant as the 610s (particularly reds) -- subjective. It's a transflective screen, instead of a reflective screen, unlike the 710/610/760 -- some are saying it's brighter -- subjective.
- Customizable Alarms (convert from WAV or MIDI) / vibrating alarms
- Buttons are slightly less sucky than the 610/710 (again, subjective)
- Universal Remote capability (has stronger IR port, can be used as a remote control)
I think that's the crop. I'd list advantages of the 610 over the 615:
- 610 has better battery life than the 615 -- given the smaller form factor of the 615, that's not a surprise.
- Stylus for T-series is like a toothpick -- some people don't like it. I may keep my Visor stylus attached to the case.
For me, it was the buttons and the customizable alarms that did it, and the form factor to a lesser extent. I strongly suspect that I am NOT representative of most people who will buy a T615C.__________________
Jeff Meyer
"And he died like he lived: with his mouth wide open."
Posted by dkessler on 01-22-2002 05:50 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by foo fighter
dkessler, how do you think these Linux based devices will stack up against PocketPC? Are they good enough to give Redmond a run for its money?
Warning: long rambling reply follows
Prior to the Zaurus I would say definitely not. The Agenda VR3 (Agenda website) is really the only commercial Linux based PDA that has ever shipped and it was never targeted at that market. It was, instead, designed to compete with PalmOS devices, and was actually a very cool device, but poor speed and memory limitations pretty much doomed it (commercially) from the start. The Yopy (G'mate website) set out to raise the bar for PDA hardware capabilities and then had difficulty getting over it. It finally exists, but it's physical design leaves a lot to be desired and it doesn't offer developers the benefit of a well designed application framework guaranteed to be present on all consumer devices.
The Zaurus line, however, is based on hardware very similar to the current PocketPC devices. In fact, apps for the Zaurus are binary compatible with the Linux distribution for the iPaq, so in terms of hardware, it stacks up great against the Compaq, Casio, and HP devices. Software is what's going to make/break the Zaurus. If they could pick up a good set of apps for viewing/editing MS Word/Excel files, they might have a good chance going head to head against PPC.
However, I actually see Linux based PDAs as a bigger threat to the high-end PalmOS market than PocketPC. A market for more powerful PDA platforms that offer more flexibility than WinCE offers definitely exists and is the driving force behind the development of PalmOS 5. These new Linux base PDAs are going to be playing in the same market segment but will benefit from a vastly superior (and open source) OS. Yeah, PalmOS 5 will be able to run legacy Palm apps (which the Linux devices can't do yet) but how appealing is that really? If I spend $500 on a new ARM base Palm, the last thing I want to do is run a bunch of old apps that don't take advantage of any of the new features.
So developers are going to have to invest resources into porting apps to PalmOS 5 and many (like myself) will take a step back at that point and look at the alternatives. From a developer's standpoint, the PalmOS API is an antique. Right now it's downright painful to write anything more than a trivial PalmOS app. The API is not object oriented and forces developers to get heavily involved with details like low-level memory management - something that is both time consuming and error prone. Modern features like VFS are just old-fashioned low-level APIs that are grafted onto the side of the OS and not well integrated at all.
On the Zaurus (and PPC devices running alternative Linux distributions), the combination of a Linux kernel with the Qt/Embedded app framework presents developers with a rich object-oriented environment (not unlike the BeOS that we all loved) that simplifies app development by at least an order of magnitude. It would be impossible for a developer who has a chance to work with one not to fall in love with the device
Add to that the fact that both the OS and all the standard apps are open source and can be used by developers as the foundation of new and better replacements. 3Com actually saw the benefits of this in the early days of the Palm and released the source for most of the PIM apps and large sections of the OS. It's from that source that apps like Datebook4 have evolved.
Some may disagree, but in my opinion it's not Palm or Handspring or Sony that are responsible for the success of the PalmOS platform -- it's the developers (and the customers that support them). PalmOS developers have turned a relatively obsolete hardware platform running a primitive OS into a surprisingly useful device. Similarly, it will be developers who determine the success or failure of Linux PDAs like the Zaurus. Most consumers choose a PDA based on the software they want to run (not vice versa), so if we (the developer community) can create some compelling Linux PDA software and market it well, then the devices that run that software will do well. It's a risky venture (to say the least) for developers and consumers who choose that path. But as a Sprinboard developer, risk has become an old friend
My Zaurus SL-5000D just arrived an hour ago (it's charging now) so once I've had a chance to play with it, I'll post (or link) a review in the "other PDAs" section of VC for anyone that's interested.__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
Posted by bookrats on 01-22-2002 06:38 PM:
I have a difference of opinion with you here, Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by dkessler
Yeah, PalmOS 5 will be able to run legacy Palm apps (which the Linux devices can't do yet) but how appealing is that really? If I spend $500 on a new ARM base Palm, the last thing I want to do is run a bunch of old apps that don't take advantage of any of the new features.
Actually, I think what someone who makes a purchase of a new ARM Palm wants is to be able to take advantage of the new features, AND run their old apps seamlessly, until said apps come out with an upgraded version.
This is true for people who upgrade PCs, and will probably be even more true for PDA users, where the device is used primarily as a personal organizer, and has become even more integrated into the person's lifestyle.
quote:
Some may disagree, but in my opinion it's not Palm or Handspring or Sony that are responsible for the success of the PalmOS platform -- it's the developers (and the customers that support them). PalmOS developers have turned a relatively obsolete hardware platform running a primitive OS into a surprisingly useful device.
There we agree absolutely. I'm old enough to remember the Macintosh community in the early-to-mid 80s, and that's what made the Mac. (The similarities to the Palm community over the last few years are eerie.) And a company building a device that doesn't realize this, and engage, encourage and aid their development community are dead before they hit the tarmac.__________________
Jeff Meyer
"And he died like he lived: with his mouth wide open."
Posted by Techie2000 on 01-22-2002 06:48 PM:
I also want a Zaurus and I'm very jealous of dkessler. Donations for the poor
? I firmly agree that the Zaurus is an excellent PDA and just needs software support. However If I can't scrounge up the $500 and justify it to my parents for the Zaurus I'll probably end up going Handera.
Posted by purplemd on 01-22-2002 07:56 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by sshapiro
I picked up the $249 Sony 610 at CompUSA for my wife. Seems like a nice unit and the price was right.
Anybody know what the new Sony 615 offers over the Sony 610 in addition to more memory?
Steve
If you go back and buy the $100 two year protection plan...if you "damage" it later and there are no 610s, you'll get the equivalent current model...T615. 
Is yours purple? Trade ya!
Posted by dkessler on 01-22-2002 08:25 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by bookrats
I have a difference of opinion with you here, Dave:
Actually, I think what someone who makes a purchase of a new ARM Palm wants is to be able to take advantage of the new features, AND run their old apps seamlessly, until said apps come out with an upgraded version.
I could have worded that better. I'm not saying that the legacy app support has no value. Quite the opposite, I think it is absolutely critical to PalmOS 5's success since it will take some time for apps to be ported to the new OS.
The point I was trying to make is that despite the legacy support, those ports must still happen. Users will be glad they can run their old apps, but they will not be content until native PalmOS 5 versions are available. And the longer that takes, the harder Palm will have to work to sell the new devices.__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>
Posted by BillC on 01-22-2002 11:22 PM:
"Some may disagree, but in my opinion it's not Palm or Handspring or Sony that are responsible for the success of the PalmOS platform -- it's the developers (and the customers that support them). PalmOS developers have turned a relatively obsolete hardware platform running a primitive OS into a surprisingly useful device."
I thought that Dave's comment here is one of the most enlightening things I've read on this board lately. Amen
Posted by foo fighter on 01-23-2002 12:27 AM:
dkessler, thanks for that in depth response!
Another question...where do you see the developer community going right now? Is it true that developers are beginning to transition to PocketPC? I am noticing more and more PalmOS apps for PPC. What are your thoughts?
__________________
My blog: Pocketfactory
