VisorCentral.com - Will CF work like 8 meg RAM module?

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-- Will CF work like 8 meg RAM module? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=11582)

Posted by purplemd on 02-06-2001 07:17 PM:

Will CF cards work like the 8 mb RAM modules? That is, will I be able to run programs from the cards so long as the working databases are on the Visor itself?

I'm trying to decide whether to buy another 8 meg, a 16 meg or one of those CF or SmartMedia card adapters.

I don't want to have to move stuff around. If I had extra space on my Visor, I wouldn't need more storage!

Posted by nysebull on 02-06-2001 07:28 PM:

The answer is no for now.

The FAFileMover app just lets you copy data to and from the CF. You can't run it from there.

__________________
Mike

Posted by PDAENVY on 02-06-2001 07:29 PM:

In a word, No.
Technologically, it's not possible.

See this thread.

__________________
Jeff

Posted by laird on 02-06-2001 11:22 PM:

>>Technologically, it's not possible.<<

I'm not sure I buy that answer. I would be very surprised if this was not acomplishable via software.

The easiest hack is to autocopy anything you need from CF to main memory.

Physically, it may not be possible due to address pins and latches as the devkit points out but that really doesn't affect software workarounds.

FWIW, it's still not as good as the TRG implimentation.

Alan

Posted by PDAENVY on 02-07-2001 02:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by laird
>>Technologically, it's not possible.<<

I'm not sure I buy that answer. I would be very surprised if this was not acomplishable via software.

The easiest hack is to autocopy anything you need from CF to main memory.

Alan

OK, let me rephrase my answer. For the reason laird points out:

quote:
Physically, it may not be possible due to address pins and latches as the devkit points...

it will never work seamlessly like the 8 meg flash module does. Currently, you have to move files manually to the Visor to use them. It's likely that in the future some workaround, like an autocopy app, will make it better (wasn't plans for one announced?), but ultimately you'll still need to have room on your Visor.

__________________
Jeff

Posted by sanchan on 02-07-2001 07:28 PM:

Think respondants are dancing around the question: Let me help the originator by asking this: What is the difference between Handspring's 8meg Flash Module and, say, an 8meg (16,32, 64 whatever) CF card in a CF adapter?

Posted by ProjectZero on 02-07-2001 07:56 PM:

In that link PDAENVY provided, scroll down to the 4th message. dkessler's explains there.

And his company has a FAQ topic on that... see

http://kopsisengineering.com/flashadapter_faq.html

Posted by sanchan on 02-09-2001 10:19 PM:

Let me try asking it THIS way: Is the only difference between Handspring's 8 meg flash module and, say, an 8 meg CF card in a CF module, the price and price alone? In other words, Handspring's CF module is no different, no more capable that an 8 meg CF card in an adapter module? It has the exact same data transfer limitations?

Posted by Jon Etkins on 02-09-2001 10:39 PM:

quote:
Let me try asking it THIS way: Is the only difference between Handspring's 8 meg flash module and, say, an 8 meg CF card in a CF module, the price and price alone? In other words, Handspring's CF module is no different, no more capable that an 8 meg CF card in an adapter module? It has the exact same data transfer limitations?

Handspring's Flash Module is not Compact Flash (CF). With the Handspring 8MB Flash Module (or the Japanese 8MB or 16MB modules) you can directly access data on the card at any time from any application, but it is read-only.

The only way to put files into flash is via File Mover, but once they're there, most applications can be run directly from flash, and most can handle reading their data from flash. Some do not, but this is a limitation of the individual application, not the storage medium.

This ability to directly access the data in the module without needing an intermediary application, is the principle advantage of the Flash Modules. The downside is price/MB and maximum capacity.

Posted by sanchan on 02-12-2001 05:37 PM:

Ah HA! Thank you!! Okay, now, what's the difference between the claim that you can run applications from the flash module but you cannot "write data directly to the module?" Wouldn't the two actions be the same thing?

Posted by dkessler on 02-13-2001 02:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sanchan
Ah HA! Thank you!! Okay, now, what's the difference between the claim that you can run applications from the flash module but you cannot "write data directly to the module?" Wouldn't the two actions be the same thing?

No, not even close. Flash is a type of programmable Read-Only Memory (ROM). Yes, that's right flash is read-only (which is why it drives me crazy when people refer to it as "flash RAM" ... it's not RAM, it's ROM). Now, everyone's first reaction will be "but it's not read-only - I can copy files to it!" Well, yes, but the individual memory cells in the flash chips *are* read only. If the CPU tries to write to a memory cell in a flash chip, nothing will happen.

To get data into flash, the flash must be "programmed". That involves executing a special sequence of control operations on the flash to erase a section of the memory, executing another sequence of control operations to put it into program mode and then copying the data to a special buffer where it can be programmed into the memory cells by special logic inside the flash chips.

The CPU in the Visor knows nothing about all these special flash programming operations (and in fact they are different for each different "brand" of flash chips). That's why a special file mover program that does understand the details of flash programming must be used to get the data into the memory.

__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Posted by sanchan on 02-13-2001 04:04 PM:

Thanks, DK, you remind me of my brother: he's a "double E" from OSU, a software engineer writing code for, ah... yeah, I'm going to get this right: a small Dragonball processor-based computer that, hell , I don't know, takes data from utilities and... presents it as user-friendly, html... something...this is embarrasing. Well, he's right brain, I'm left.
ANYWAY, so, responding to your last post: what exactly CAN "be run directly from the Handspring flash module" as they claim? Or is that claim false? If the HSpring flash module can't really run programs, then I'd go with your miracle CF flash filemover and the latest CF adapter. Thanks for reading!

Posted by purplemd on 02-13-2001 04:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sanchan
Thanks, DK, you remind me of my brother: he's a "double E" from OSU, a software engineer writing code for, ah... yeah, I'm going to get this right: a small Dragonball processor-based computer that, hell , I don't know, takes data from utilities and... presents it as user-friendly, html... something...this is embarrasing. Well, he's right brain, I'm left.
ANYWAY, so, responding to your last post: what exactly CAN "be run directly from the Handspring flash module" as they claim? Or is that claim false? If the HSpring flash module can't really run programs, then I'd go with your miracle CF flash filemover and the latest CF adapter. Thanks for reading!

Though I am in many ways right-brained, I gave up Chemical Engineering for psychiatry (go figure). Despite this, I will give you the benefit(?) of the information gleaned from various sources:

You can run programs from the RAM but you have to make sure that the xxxDB files associated with the program stay on the Visor proper. I usually run each program before I use FileMover to get stuff on the module. Once you run the programs, the xxxDB files which store the information, preferences, scores, etc. are created. Those are the files which are rewritten so they can't be kept on the read-only memory RAM module. I have many games, finance programs, ActionNames, BugMe and others on the 8 meg RAM module and have no difficulty running them.

My only crashes have come from that STUPID compacting thing that the module has never successfully completed which corrupts the module and forces you to initialize (read: erase) it.

But...I digress...

Hope this helps!

Posted by dkessler on 02-13-2001 05:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sanchan
what exactly CAN "be run directly from the Handspring flash module" as they claim? Or is that claim false? If the HSpring flash module can't really run programs, then I'd go with your miracle CF flash filemover and the latest CF adapter. Thanks for reading!

Keep in mind that the explanation I provided above applies only to the case of writing to flash. When reading, the flash in the HS module looks just like the ROM where the built in apps like Datebook+ are stored.

Many programs run directly from the HS module just fine. As long as a programs isn't "self modifying" (a very bad and fortunately rare practice), and as long as the databases it wants to write to are kept in RAM, it should be able to run directly from the HS flash module. There are a few badly written apps that assume that their databases are on the same "memory card" that the app is ... but their numbers are dwindling.

If you're just looking for a way to squeeze more applications onto your Visor without the hassle of "file management" the HS flash module is really a better solution than a CF adapter ... for now

. On the other hand, if you want to carry around 100 MB of ebooks, maps, video clips, etc, a CF adapter is the only way to go.

__________________
<ul><li>Dave Kessler<br>President - Kopsis, Inc.</li></ul>

Posted by sanchan on 02-13-2001 06:00 PM:

It helps it helps! Thank you. Now, as it stands, when I run programs on my Visor, I don't "see" xxxDB's, so, I take it they are a concern after I purchase the "flash Module," slip it in and use the Filemover? In other words, these data base files will "appear" and allow me to avoid "moving" them?
BTW: The Hsagawa 16 meg works "JUST LIKE" HSpring's Flash Module? Thanks again to EVERYONE for walking me through this.

Posted by sanchan on 02-13-2001 06:10 PM:

Man, getting a response from Dave K is like getting blessed by the pope! Can I have your autograph? Kidding aside I appreciate all you folks holding my hand through this stuff. My brother just laughs! But, FWIW: You have an idea of what some of us users are like, totally devoted to their Visor, but not THAT technically savvy about "The Way Things Work!" Thanks again.

Posted by Fat_Man on 02-13-2001 08:08 PM:

The FileMover

quote:
Originally posted by sanchan
It helps it helps! Thank you. Now, as it stands, when I run programs on my Visor, I don't "see" xxxDB's, so, I take it they are a concern after I purchase the "flash Module," slip it in and use the Filemover? In other words, these data base files will "appear" and allow me to avoid "moving" them?
BTW: The Hsagawa 16 meg works "JUST LIKE" HSpring's Flash Module?

Sanchan,

1. Yes, when you launch the filemover application, you will see both the applications and the databases. The filemover automatically separates them so that the application will be listed first, and its associated databases are under their respective application in an outline format , so it's easy to tell which is which. So far for my experience most applications can be stored and run directly from the module. Some databases CAN be stored and accessed in the module, but some cannot. It's basically trial and error when it comes to databases.

2. Yes, the 16mb module works "just like" the HS 8mb module. I am very happy with mine.

Hope this help.

__________________
Fat's

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