VisorCentral.com - One Year On

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
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-- One Year On (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=26965)

Posted by Toby on 10-24-2002 03:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jhappel
[...] Rather, why is it that all on the right wing (I don't want to use the word rightists) think that war IS a game?

Rather, why is it that neither extreme realizes that neither of them is likely to be right?

Posted by John Nowak on 10-24-2002 08:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jhappel
From John Nowak:
Rather, why is it that all on the right wing (I don't want to use the word rightists) think that war IS a game?

What makes you think that?

Posted by John Nowak on 10-24-2002 08:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
But why would all these scientists be making things up? What would they have to lose or gain by doing this?

First, look at Toby's SIG, where he quotes a "scientist"; the quote is a blatant admission on the part of the speaker that he will lie and distort information deliberately in defense of the theory.

And, of course, by this point, they've screamed so loudly that they can't acknowledge the simple fact that they are almost certainly wrong without wrecking their careers.

One occasionally hears something along the lines of "This is the warmest summer in 1000 years." Why one thousand? Simply because people know the Vikings were growing crops in Greenland around CE 1000 and that the world was significantly warmer back then. It's an obvious rhetorical device.

Posted by Toby on 10-24-2002 09:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
First, look at Toby's SIG, where he quotes a "scientist"; the quote is a blatant admission on the part of the speaker that he will lie and distort information deliberately in defense of the theory. [...]

Just for the record since I've changed that sig (it was _way_ too big), this is the quote being referenced...
"We are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we'd like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climate change. To do that we need to get some broad-based support, to capture the public's imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have." - Dr Stephen Schneider, Biological Sciences Professor at Stanford University, reiterating comments he made to Discover magazine in 1989, American Physical Society News Online, August/September 1996

Posted by John Nowak on 10-24-2002 11:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Just for the record since I've changed that sig (it was _way_ too big), this is the quote being referenced...

Thanks for the reiteration. It's a disturbing and honest admission.

The second one's a bit more contentious, though; it's five years out of date and there does seem to be some legitimacy to the claim that the temperature at the surface of the earth has elevated slightly, almost to the levels recorded in the 1930s.

The sattelite and weather balloon data show a stable temperature, or a slight cooling, in the troposphere, which is the lowest layer of the atmosphere yet still at reasonably high altitude.

General Circulation Models predict the troposphere should be getting hotter faster than the surface, which is absolutely not happening; the surface may be getting warmer but the troposphere isn't. In fact, it's more consistent with the observed and acknowledged fact that the sun is unusually active just now, which would also explain why the weather station on Mars is showing a slight surface temperature increase.

However, "The sun is hotter" is useless, politically. You can't blame a hotter sun on Bush, although I'm certain Yardie would try.

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-25-2002 01:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak

... which would also explain why the weather station on Mars is showing a slight surface temperature increase.

Hehehe, that's funny. It sounds like something on weather.com. I never really thought of anything we left on another planet as still being useful. It's amazing that we speak of extra-terrestial instruments in passing, using them as evidence in an argument without stopping to think just how cool that is!

__________________
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Posted by yardie on 10-25-2002 08:57 AM:

I think Nowak and Toby is missing the big picture. Global warming is just oner of the problems that are caused by our consumption. There are also other factors such as bad air, polluted water etc. that is getting people sick. This being said, I will be looking at the global warming issue through a more skeptical lens from now on.

__________________
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Posted by Toby on 10-25-2002 11:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Nowak
[...] The second one's a bit more contentious, though; it's five years out of date and there does seem to be some legitimacy to the claim that the temperature at the surface of the earth has elevated slightly, almost to the levels recorded in the 1930s. [...]

Was this taking into account the UHIE?

Posted by Toby on 10-25-2002 12:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
I think Nowak and Toby is missing the big picture.

I assure you we're not the same person.

quote:
Global warming is just oner of the problems that are caused by our consumption.

First of all, there is no scientifically established link there. Second of all, it's the only one being discussed, so I don't think you have any idea of what big picture anyone else may or may not be missing.

quote:
There are also other factors such as bad air, polluted water etc. that is getting people sick.

Don't confuse a non-belief in the religion of global warming with a non-concern for the biosphere and incidents that humans _can_ control.

quote:
This being said, I will be looking at the global warming issue through a more skeptical lens from now on.

Don't limit it to the global warming issue. There's loads of voodoo science out there.

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-25-2002 01:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Don't limit it to the global warming issue. There's loads of voodoo science out there.

And it often ruins a lot of people's lives. Breast implants come to mind. All systematic studies I've found say the hullabaloo over silicon breast implants was unfounded. Sure, many woman had leaking implants and then health problems, but that doesn't show causation. Unfortunately juries needn't be versed in science and tend to be quite empathetic to crying "victims" claiming their implants caused their connective tissue disease.
Oh, and don't even get me started on nutritional supplements! I'm never one for onerous regulation but I don't think it's right they can claim whatever they want so long as the product is "natural" and they say "these claims have not been evaluated by the FDA."

__________________
<a href="http://www.kurtramsauer.com">KurtRamsauer.com</a>

Posted by John Nowak on 10-25-2002 05:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
Hehehe, that's funny. It sounds like something on weather.com. I never really thought of anything we left on another planet as still being useful. It's amazing that we speak of extra-terrestial instruments in passing, using them as evidence in an argument without stopping to think just how cool that is!

It truly is amazing, isn't it? "The weather station on Mars."

When I was a kid, I remember seeing Neptune in the planetarium shows as a big blue fuzzy ball. Now when I go to a planetarium show, it's sharp-as-a-razor photograph with atmospheric features.

I was talking to an astrobiologist some time ago and she mentioned they were planning on installing a centrifuge on the ISS for positive gravity control samples in biological experiments. We can afford to send up control samples now!

Granted NASA has its problems but sometimes I'm just blown away by how far we've come.

Posted by John Nowak on 10-25-2002 05:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
Global warming is just oner of the problems that are caused by our consumption.

That's good, Yardie -- just invent another Impending Doom. We're about due for one.

Heck, I'm only 38 and I can't remember a single day in my life the world wasn't going to end in ten to twenty years.

Posted by John Nowak on 10-25-2002 05:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I assure you we're not the same person.

I can vouch for this. I'm the one with a mustache.

Posted by John Nowak on 10-25-2002 06:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yardie
This being said, I will be looking at the global warming issue through a more skeptical lens from now on.

I overlooked this earlier, which was churlish of me. In all sincerity, congratulations. It's not easy to admit your mind was changed, especially in the middle of an argument. My respect for you has gone up several notches.

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