VisorCentral.com - OT - Janet Jackson's breast at Super Bowl halftime

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Posted by thppfft on 02-04-2004 05:45 PM:

clulup: You said "I did not know apples were illeagal in the US, at least they aren't here...." Where are you from? Maybe that explains the difference of opinions.

In the US, freedom of expression is our most treasured law. But freedom of expression means more than the literal interpretation of the words. It also means fredom to be who you choose to be. Some people choose to look at breasts. Some people choose not to. Each side must respect the other persons opinion. If one person starts dictating what the other person should think or feel, then that person is eroding their own rights to their own thoughts and feelings.
Now, to segue into gay marriages...

A few years ago, Aerosmith and Britney Spears did the halftime show. They sung "Walk This Way". I guess nobody got offended because the ones that would didn't know the words, and the ones that did know the words happen to like the song. My jaw dropped because I do know the words, and the innuendos, and couldn't believe they were singing them on broadcast television. If anybody would like an explaination of the words (including the title), you can PM me. Here they are:

Backstroke lover always hidin� �neath the cover
Till I talked to your daddy he say
He said you ain�t seen noting
�till you�re down on a muffin
Then you�re sure to be a-changin� your ways

I met a cheerleader, was a real young bleeder
All the times I can remaniesse
�cause the best thing lovin�
With her sister and her cousin
Only started with a little kiss, like this!

See-saw swingin� with the boys in the school
And your feet flyin� up in the air
Singin� hey diddle-diddle with the kitty in the middle
You be swingin� like you just didn�t care

So I took a big chance at the high school dance
With a missy who was ready to play
Was it me she was foolin�
�cause she knew what she was doin�
And I know love was here to stay
When she told me to

Walk this way, walk this way
Walk this way, walk this way
Walk this way, walk this way
Walk this way, walk this way
Ah, just give me a kiss - like this!

School girl sadie with the classy kinda sassy
Little skirt climbing way up her knees
There was three young ladies in the school gym locker
When I noticed they was lookin� at me

I was a high school loser
Never made it with a lady
Till the boys told me something I missed
Then my next door neighbour
With a daughter had a favour
So I gave her just a little kiss, like this!

See-saw swingin� with the boys in the school
And your feet flyin� up in the air
Singin� hey diddle-diddle with the kitty in the middle
You be swingin� like you just didn�t care

So I took a big chance at the high school dance
With a missy who was ready to play
Was it me she was foolin�
�cause she knew what she was doin�
When she told me how to walk this way
She told me to

Walk this way, talk this way
Walk this way, walk this way
Walk this way, walk this way
Walk this way, talk this way
Just give me a kiss - like this!

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Posted by Toby on 02-04-2004 06:53 PM:

I'll reiterate a previous question: did anyone see what the rating for the halftime show segment was? As a corollary, if people found the whole halftime show offensive, why were they still watching by the time the boob flashed? Reminds me of the guy from the original Porky's: "I sat through every disgusting frame of this film ...twice."

Posted by KRamsauer on 02-04-2004 07:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I'll reiterate a previous question: did anyone see what the rating for the halftime show segment was? As a corollary, if people found the whole halftime show offensive, why were they still watching by the time the boob flashed? Reminds me of the guy from the original Porky's: "I sat through every disgusting frame of this film ...twice."

Methinks there was little else to watch. Said folks probably didn't purchase the lingerie bowl. ;-)

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Posted by kayden75 on 02-04-2004 07:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I'll reiterate a previous question: did anyone see what the rating for the halftime show segment was?

don't know exactly what time halftime show aired, but I'll look into it

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Posted by thppfft on 02-05-2004 02:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
I'll reiterate a previous question: did anyone see what the rating for the halftime show segment was? As a corollary, if people found the whole halftime show offensive, why were they still watching by the time the boob flashed? Reminds me of the guy from the original Porky's: "I sat through every disgusting frame of this film ...twice."

A quick look at the listings at http://tv.yahoo.com shows that all sports and news programs are unrated.
I assume this is so because there are centain expectations of what is and is not in sporting evevnts. People expect violence and profanity, but not sexuality.
For artistic events (such as the halftime show), one does not know what to expect ahead of time, thus the ratings.
However, regardless of rating, most people know that showing a breast on broadcast television is a no-no.
I mean, how upset would someone be if they paid their $10 for a PPV block of Spice, and the only thing that they got too see was Janet Jacksons breast at the halftime show. I would be pissed!

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Posted by Toby on 02-05-2004 11:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
A quick look at the listings at http://tv.yahoo.com shows that all sports and news programs are unrated.
I assume this is so because there are centain expectations of what is and is not in sporting evevnts. People expect violence and profanity, but not sexuality.

Why are their cheerleaders then? Why are their commercials which use sexuality to sell a product? Why did Tivo see such a spike in activity?

quote:
For artistic events (such as the halftime show), one does not know what to expect ahead of time, thus the ratings.

So was it rated or wasn't it?

quote:
However, regardless of rating, most people know that showing a breast on broadcast television is a no-no.

Sorry, but S&P has changed since the 50s. Shows like NYPD Blue seemed to have 'raised' the bar on what is allowed on television.

quote:
I mean, how upset would someone be if they paid their $10 for a PPV block of Spice, and the only thing that they got too see was Janet Jacksons breast at the halftime show. I would be pissed!

I'm not sure if I see the connection.

Posted by clulup on 02-05-2004 11:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by heberman
Actually, it is all wrong. Context is everything here. If I went to a strip club, I should expect strippers and what I saw at the Superbowl. If I go to McDonalds with my children, I don't expect ladies on the tables taking their clothes off. Why? Because the context is different. At McDonalds, I doubt even clulup would be claiming, "It's just a breast! A naked body is OK!"

Sexual titillation for children is never OK. Ever. Bumping, grinding, writhing, on-stage simulating sexual scenes is never OK for children. Ever. Children have a right, and a need, to be protected from adult sexual appetites.

I think your view of how children see these things is wrong. The interest for erotic and sexual things is low or even absent in children (child means human being before adolescence).

So if we go to McDonald's and for some strange reason there is a naked man or woman standing there, my five year old daughter would probably find that strange and unusual, but she would certainly not be shocked or traumatized because of that. Maybe I should add that we don't walk around naked all the time at home, but we also don't lock the bathroom door when we take a shower, so occasionally our kids see their parents naked - do you find that shocking, too? Here in Switerland that is very normal.

Maybe for you, a naked body is always linked to sex (or is it too dark then for you to see anything?), but that is not so for everybody, and certainly children don't link it to that because they don't know what that is.

I guess what stresses you out is that the show turns you on (slightly, at least tries to) and you don't want that - that's ok. But for children, it does not have that effect, they just don't care.

And no, I would not want my children to see a porn movie or to go to a strip club, for two reasons: (A) I don't think porn or stripping is a positive way of dealing with sexuality, but as long as kids are kids, they would not understand why anyway, and
(B) It has nothing to do with the part of the world children can understand and comprehend, it is way above their heads. I also would not want them to see just about any other movie for grownups for the same reason. But I also have to admit that I have never been to a Stip Club so far, so I don't have any experience with that, maybe you can help me out?

Posted by yardie on 02-05-2004 11:57 AM:

Based on the arguments people who are complaining about the breast are you using, Kids should not watch Football, Hockey and a bunch of other sports. Think about the violence in these sports. Guys are always aiming to take another guy out. Is this something we want our kids to emulate at playtime?

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Posted by clulup on 02-05-2004 12:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
clulup: You said "I did not know apples were illeagal in the US, at least they aren't here...." Where are you from? Maybe that explains the difference of opinions.

Indeed that explains quite a number of dfferences in opinions. Most Indians for instance have a completely different view on eating cows than most Americans or Europeans. Or Saudi-Arabian officials would have voiced an even more pronounced statement on the half-time show, probably there heads would roll in a more litteral fashion than the heads of some CBS or MTV managers.

With my initial statement I just wanted to express how surprised I was that such a show and a breast exposed for a second can cause such huge story in the US and even make the White House comment on it. Here in Europe, no one would care, and certainly no Government would feel the need to take any action. I had thought the US were a bit more like the rest of the Western World in that respect.

Posted by thppfft on 02-05-2004 12:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Why are their cheerleaders then? Why are their commercials which use sexuality to sell a product?

The cheerleaders and the commercials do not show nipples.
The cheerleaders and the commercials do not show simulated copulation.
BTW, Powell found the entire halftime show to be indecent, not just the last few seconds.

quote:
Why did Tivo see such a spike in activity?

Not everybody is a prude.

quote:
So was it rated or wasn't it?

Previous halftime shows didn't need to be rated.
The producers assumed that past performance was a guarantee of future results.

quote:
Sorry, but S&P has changed since the 50s. Shows like NYPD Blue seemed to have 'raised' the bar on what is allowed on television.

Before the guy showed his butt, it was advertised before hand to warn people of the exposure. The issue isn't so much that a breast was shown. It's that people were not warned ahead of time.

quote:
I'm not sure if I see the connection.

The connection expectations. When people turn on Spice, they don't expect to see a football game. When people turn on the superbowl, they don't expect to see nipples.

yardie: Yes, I think it is strange that people are more concerned about sex than violence. However, it is their choice. They chose to watch violence. They did not choose to see breasts and simulated sex.

clulup: Someone famous once said, "You can never tell a child too much about sex. Because if you do, they will start loosing interest." ( or something like that ). Yes, in comparison to Europe, America is prude. But in comparison to the Middle East and parts of Asia, America is libral.
That's another reason the NFL was so outraged. This was the first Superbowl aired in China, in which child prostitution can get you the death penality!

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Posted by clulup on 02-05-2004 12:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
If anybody would like an explaination of the words (including the title), you can PM me. Here they are:

Backstroke lover always hidin� �neath the cover
Till I talked to your daddy he say
He said you ain�t seen noting
�till you�re down on a muffin
Then you�re sure to be a-changin� your ways

....

Unauthorized printing, distribution, reproduction, re-use or modification of the above content is illegal under US and international law and is subject to financial penalty, incarceration, chopping off of hands, or worse.

Anyway, I don't get the message (stupid as I am, non-native speaker in addition), can you explain? Feel free to PM me, on the other hand, I don't think there are lot's of children on the forum anyway. You could also add a disclaimer (WARNING: the following posting may contain explicit or adult content. By reading, you admit being above 18 years old and not a sissy in addition). You could write the text in white on a white background, so that it only becomes visible after highlighting, maybe that will do? Looking forward to it, since I know the song but not the meaning.

Posted by clulup on 02-05-2004 12:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
That's another reason the NFL was so outraged. This was the first Superbowl aired in China, in which child prostitution can get you the death penality!

And I thought Janet Jackson was above 18....! Or where's the connection?

Posted by Toby on 02-05-2004 02:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thppfft
The cheerleaders and the commercials do not show nipples.

You haven't watched many commercials or cheerleaders methinks (some of them are obviously filmed in chilly weather

quote:
The cheerleaders and the commercials do not show simulated copulation.

The dancing that I saw in recaps didn't look out of place for a cheerleading routine, IMO.

quote:
BTW, Powell found the entire halftime show to be indecent, not just the last few seconds.

No, Powell claims to have found it indecent. I take his claims with the same grain of salt as I take the comments that it was a 'wardrobe malfunction'.

quote:
Previous halftime shows didn't need to be rated.

Didn't they? The last halftime show I saw was the one with Aerosmith, Britney, Nelly, etc. Other than the boob flash, this one doesn't seem to have been much different. It definitely doesn't seem to have been any different than the videos of the performers that were involved. These performers were well known to be performing. Did people expect them to present a different version (in a more sanitized way) of their acts just for the Super Bowl?

quote:
The producers assumed that past performance was a guarantee of future results.

No, they obviously didn't. If they did, they would have watched some videos and concert performances from the acts and known what to expect. Or maybe they did...and didn't see a problem with it until some complaints started to surface.

quote:
Before the guy showed his butt, it was advertised before hand to warn people of the exposure. The issue isn't so much that a breast was shown. It's that people were not warned ahead of time.

quote:
The connection expectations. When people turn on Spice, they don't expect to see a football game. When people turn on the superbowl, they don't expect to see nipples.

No one saw a nipple. They saw jewelry. The only way that one saw a nipple was if they zoomed into a still image.

Posted by KRamsauer on 02-05-2004 04:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Why are their cheerleaders then? Why are their commercials which use sexuality to sell a product? Why did Tivo see such a spike in activity?

The perceived difference between bare breasts and cheerleaders/beer commercials is huge. And the Tivo comment actually works against you because if they expected it, they wouldn't have to watch it over and over and over again.

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Posted by heberman on 02-05-2004 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by clulup

The interest for erotic and sexual things is low or even absent in children (child means human being before adolescence).

Exactly. We don't need to force it on children.

quote:

I guess what stresses you out is that the show turns you on (slightly, at least tries to) and you don't want that - that's ok.

Talk about a baited statement. Whatever.

quote:

And no, I would not want my children to see a porn movie or to go to a strip club, for two reasons: (A) I don't think porn or stripping is a positive way of dealing with sexuality....

My point exactly - you have proved my argument. That halftime show was not a positive way of dealing with sexuality.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 02-05-2004 06:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by clulup

With my initial statement I just wanted to express how surprised I was that such a show and a breast exposed for a second can cause such huge story in the US and even make the White House comment on it. Here in Europe, no one would care, and certainly no Government would feel the need to take any action. I had thought the US were a bit more like the rest of the Western World in that respect.

Well, I imagine most people in the US would be amazed to find out that beastiality is legal in Sweden.

Different cultures, different expectations of normal.

Don't confuse nudity wth sexuality. Showing a kid a naked body (most greco-roman art) versus expousing them to pornography produces two very different results.

But what the heck do I know? I think spectator sports are silly and I'm a one woman kinda guy with no interest in seeing other people naked.

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Posted by Toby on 02-05-2004 06:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by KRamsauer
The perceived difference between bare breasts and cheerleaders/beer commercials is huge.

I don't disagree. My point is more that the perceived difference is blown more out of proportion than the difference in reality.

quote:
And the Tivo comment actually works against you because if they expected it, they wouldn't have to watch it over and over and over again.

Not really, it doesn't, because supposedly the breast flash was only part of the complaint. The point about Tivo was more that it obviously didn't offend everybody (or that people sought out to be offended multiple times). What I find really shocking is that the only other search engine query that competes with this topic is September 11. That's just pathetic, IMO.

Posted by clulup on 02-05-2004 06:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike

Well, I imagine most people in the US would be amazed to find out that beastiality is legal in Sweden.

Different cultures, different expectations of normal.

Don't confuse nudity wth sexuality. Showing a kid a naked body (most greco-roman art) versus expousing them to pornography produces two very different results.

But what the heck do I know? I think spectator sports are silly and I'm a one woman kinda guy with no interest in seeing other people naked.

Good to see you around, hope you and your family are fine - just when I started thinking everybody is gone, I can see that the ingredients for a lively discussion are still around (Toby, Yardie, etc.).

But hey, what shall we fight about, now that it has become commonly accepted knowledge that there were no WMD in Iraq when the war started?

Posted by BobbyMike on 02-06-2004 01:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
What I find really shocking is that the only other search engine query that competes with this topic is September 11. That's just pathetic, IMO.

Not even WMDs or B. Spears getting annulled?

Shocking, but not unexpected as it seems that so much "Public Outrage" is manufactured by politicians, media, or other special interest groups.

I wasn't shocked or outraged that a MTV produced show would end up that way. Just disinterested.

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Posted by BobbyMike on 02-06-2004 01:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by clulup

But hey, what shall we fight about, now that it has become commonly accepted knowledge that there were no WMD in Iraq when the war started?

How about how Americans are the only truly civilized people in the world?

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