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Originally posted by MarkEagle
They already know of the other options. That's not the point, however. The point we stress as parents is that there is only ONE choice at this stage of their lives (my house, my rules... yes, it's old fashioned logic, but it still applies even today). While their friends may carry some weight, hopefully ours outweighs it.

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Originally posted by KRamsauer
If you read closely, I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with what was said. I was simply saying the logic was flawed.

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Originally posted by septimus
On an individual basis, sure, that's obvious. The point here is that as a social policy abstinence is not effective.

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Originally posted by yardie
People are going to have sex because it is normal.

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While this is true, I think its a waste of time and money to preach abstitence.

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Resources would be better spent on protection.

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Originally posted by K. Cannon

I fail to see a problem with society promoting individual responsibility.

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Wow, this has gotten interesting.

First off the Abstinence teaching doesn't leave the recipients ignorant of sex. They are quite aware of what goes on. They are told Abstinence first, Protection second, and Keep The Same Partner third.

Abstinence is taught first because it works best to prevent the disease.
Protection is taught second because while it can't totally prevent exposure, it can limit exposure.
Keeping the same partner obviously doesn't prevent you from getting the disease, but will certainly keep the partners from exposing others.

Some FBOs (not all, not even a majority) have stimatized people with AIDs, sex workers, etc. This is not only regrettable, but not in keeping with Christs word. IMHO it is as worse a crime as ignoring starving orphans. FYI many FBOs support/maintain hospices and orphanages for people and children with AIDs.

I knew as soon as I typed the word abstinence that I would see a strong, visceral response. I'm not amazed at that I saw the words "sex / natural" linked (it's a mantra in some circles). I'm wondering how many of you actually have thought that sexual fidelity is actually more natural? Most societies (past/present) end up with some form of marriage.

IMHO thats' because it is safer and provide/provides a more secure enviroment to raise children in (which is the physiological reason for sex). It also allows for a deeper bond to grow between the partners that surpasses the merely physical.

What has "sexual freedom" gained our society, except more easily spread STDs? I know it's helped to weaken the familial bonds in our culture, but I would be interested to hear peples opinions of what thing(s) of worth that it has given modern culture.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] I'm wondering how many of you actually have thought that sexual fidelity is actually more natural? Most societies (past/present) end up with some form of marriage. [...]

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Originally posted by Toby
In the animal world, there's quite a spectrum of those type of roles.

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Originally posted by Toby
I've always been more wolf than dog.

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
I'm wondering how many of you actually have thought that sexual fidelity is actually more natural? Most societies (past/present) end up with some form of marriage.

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Originally posted by clulup


Of course it is true that most (if not all) human societies have some sort of marriage. However, the degree of fidelity that is linked to that institution is another question. I think it would be very difficult to show that people had less sex outside of marriage in the past, if we try not to glorify the past. I guess we just talk about it more openly than before. After all, sexually transmitted diseases were not invented after the sexual revolution: syphilis has been around for centuries, and the effects of it can be found everywhere in history. Oral contraceptives have made things less risky regarding pregnancy, AIDS made things more risky again regarding getting severly ill.

Also regarding nature things are not that easy. Even in species with a lifelong partnership (like in some birds such as ducks), "infidelity" is quite frequent. Also in species with dominant males (like gorillas) and in families/flocks there is a lot of "cheating" and sneaking away to other flocks.... So strikt fidelity does not seem to be favoured by nature, while living in partnerships is, given that lots of species live in structured relations.

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
Yep, there's even critters that don't need anybody else at all to reproduce. I think if a person wanted to "prove" any position on what's natural/unnatural by using an example from the animal kingdom, they could....

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Louisiana Swamp Wolf?

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Originally posted by ToolkiT
One could even argue that fidelity is unnatural, by 'sleeping' around the genepool gets a better mix and we avoid inbreeding..

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Male nature is to 'spread its seeds'...

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A woman has a lot more to gain with fidelaty then a man.. such is nature..

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Originally posted by Toby
A woman has no more or less to gain from fidelity than a man. There's no rule saying that the man the woman may find more attractive and better genetically stocked for reproduction is always the one who is better suited for settling down and raising those offspring. Men just tell themselves such things because they don't like the thought of being cuckolded

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Originally posted by ToolkiT
I disagree, a man can (theoretically) reproduce with a lot of women at the same time, while when a woman falls pregnant she is 'off the market'.

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While pregnant/nursing a woman is (semi) dependant on the man.

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If a woman picks her partner, the 'risk' for her is a lot bigger, a man could bail on a pregnant women, while the woman can't, she is stuck with the kid..

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This (as a sidetrack) is also explains the origin of the engagement ring, once a woman has made the 'investment' in a man she needs some sort of downpayment...(of course this is outdated, but the tradition stayed...)

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ps all this reasoning is purely hypothetical and does not take modern life and ethics into account.. just try to push the point on the 'natural' thing... fact is that modern man is far from natural, while we still have some of the natural instincts...

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Originally posted by Toby
male nature also wants to make sure that it's _his_ seeds getting planted. One can't do that without some degree of fidelity.

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Originally posted by Toby
A woman has no more or less to gain from fidelity than a man. There's no rule saying that the man the woman may find more attractive and better genetically stocked for reproduction is always the one who is better suited for settling down and raising those offspring. Men just tell themselves such things because they don't like the thought of being cuckolded

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Originally posted by clulup
That's not necessarily true. Since men are stronger, they can lock their wifes up in the house while still being active outside of it. Not very fair, but reality.

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I agree with that - makes life complicated, biologically and culturally, even though most cultures try to make it simple: men rule, no divorce, no infidelity. But, unfortunately, real life is complicated, is it not?

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Originally posted by ToolkiT

One could even argue that fidelity is unnatural, by 'sleeping' around the genepool gets a better mix and we avoid inbreeding..
Male nature is to 'spread its seeds'...
A woman has a lot more to gain with fidelaty then a man.. such is nature..

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__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

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Originally posted by clulup

Also regarding nature things are not that easy. Even in species with a lifelong partnership (like in some birds such as ducks), "infidelity" is quite frequent. Also in species with dominant males (like gorillas) and in families/flocks there is a lot of "cheating" and sneaking away to other flocks.... So strikt fidelity does not seem to be favoured by nature, while living in partnerships is, given that lots of species live in structured relations.

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

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Originally posted by clulup

That's not necessarily true. Since men are stronger, they can lock their wifes up in the house while still being active outside of it. Not very fair, but reality.

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Originally posted by clulup
I agree with that - makes life complicated, biologically and culturally, even though most cultures try to make it simple: men rule, no divorce, no infidelity. But, unfortunately, real life is complicated, is it not?

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"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

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Originally posted by BobbyMike
You don't see many ducks debating the nature of things!

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