VisorCentral.com - How would we ever upgrade to PalmOS 4?

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Visor Edge (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=25)
-- How would we ever upgrade to PalmOS 4? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=25112)

Posted by rimshaker on 07-24-2002 08:00 PM:

How would we ever upgrade to PalmOS 4?

Kind of new to PDA's and just got my edge the other week. You would think that at a debut price of $400, the edge would support flash upgrades. So how do we upgrade to the newer PalmOS? Do we have no choice but to wait for handspring to release a big patch file or somehting??

Posted by dorelse on 07-24-2002 08:03 PM:

Well, you can use your Edge with the Palm 4 desktop...but as for the Palm...3.5.2H or whatever is 'close' to Palm os 4....isn't that what Hawkins said? (Minus VFS support).

However, existing Visor's will never ever support Palm OS 4...

The simple answer...

Buy a Sony.

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Posted by rimshaker on 07-24-2002 08:13 PM:

damn

Sounds like another soldering hack then Much like the 8mb to 16mb internal memory upgrade.

Posted by dorelse on 07-24-2002 08:16 PM:

That's been my thought as well. VFS is the only big thing in OS4, so if I do the Tony special and get it upgraded to 16MB internal, I won't need VFS...

(Of course I could just use my Clie..;-)

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Posted by rimshaker on 07-25-2002 02:41 PM:

Wait a second. The OS can be upgraded via springboard modules or software patches. Says it right on their website FAQ.

Posted by dorelse on 07-25-2002 05:14 PM:

True. But those are only for Patches, not the Base OS. You need the Base OS 4 for VFS for instance.

I'm not the guy to technically answer this, I just know you can't upgrade the OS, as its permanently 3.5. You need Flash ROM in order to upgrade it to the next release, as the iPaq 3600's have been able to do. You can't perform an upgrade if you can't overwrite the existing OS.

HS patches sit in your user available RAM, not on the OS side, which is how HS applies those patches...you couldn't do that with the entire OS though.

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Posted by Toby on 07-25-2002 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dorelse
[...] HS patches sit in your user available RAM, not on the OS side, which is how HS applies those patches...you couldn't do that with the entire OS though.

Yes, you _could_. The problem, though, is that Handspring _won't_. There's nothing technical preventing updating all of the OS libraries.

Posted by dorelse on 07-25-2002 06:26 PM:

Well, then I obviously don't understand the reasoning and need for Flash ROM then...I thought that's the only way you could do a major OS upgrade, was by Flashing the ROM...which Visor's don't have....

If you can't overwrite the OS currently on our Visor's how would you update the something that you cannot change?

Or are you saying with a nice big patch from HS, they could simulate OS 4...b/c the core os would still be 3.5...or, I suppose HS could swap the chips out for a fee...

I hate doling out incorrect info...but I apparently don't understand it myself.

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Posted by Toby on 07-25-2002 07:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dorelse
Well, then I obviously don't understand the reasoning and need for Flash ROM then...I thought that's the only way you could do a major OS upgrade, was by Flashing the ROM...which Visor's don't have....

Well, it's undoubtedly the preferred way of upgrading since it'll survive a hard reset, but it's certainly not the only way, otherwise, how would library patches be possible?

quote:
If you can't overwrite the OS currently on our Visor's how would you update the something that you cannot change?

All of the libraries would just run out of RAM.

quote:
Or are you saying with a nice big patch from HS, they could simulate OS 4...b/c the core os would still be 3.5...or, I suppose HS could swap the chips out for a fee...

No, not simulate OS 4; _run_ OS 4. From what I understand, the actual system libraries are only several hundred K. The rest are the apps.

quote:
I hate doling out incorrect info...but I apparently don't understand it myself.

Here's a Usenet thread that trods all over that ground. Or, just think of system hacks. They intercept OS calls that are trying to go to the OS in ROM and make them do something else. There's no technical reason the _whole_OS_ couldn't be replaced the same way.

edit: edited link to go to top of thread

Posted by rimshaker on 07-25-2002 07:38 PM:

hmmm. well, let me try to explain it technically. You can trust me, i have an MSEE (jobless though ). To save on costs, handspring chose to use ROM instead of the cooler flash memory. It's true, you can't overwrite what's on the ROM chip. So you're right dorelse, we're stuck with OS 3.5. But they can release patches which will change the OS to something like 3.5.1 --> 3.5.2 --> etc.

The only way we could upgrade the OS is to swap out ROM chips. I've never seen what's inside the visor edge and i'm not willing to take mine apart But if the ROM chip is soldered onto the circuit board, we're pretty much stuck with OS 3.5 forever. However, if the chip is simply held in a socket, then upgrading the ROM chip, and hence the OS, is a piece of cake. With how thin the visor edge is, I highly doubt it's held in a socket. oh well...

Posted by Toby on 07-25-2002 07:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rimshaker
hmmm. well, let me try to explain it technically. You can trust me, i have an MSEE (jobless though ). [...]

Being an electrical engineer doesn't mean that you de facto understand how Palm OS works. If you can find any technical flaws in the thread I posted, then please feel free to share.

Posted by terrysalmi on 07-25-2002 08:10 PM:

What is in OS 4.0 that the edge does not already have? The two noteable exceptions are VFS, which the edge can have through third-party programs for springboard use, and support for 16-bit color, which the edge obviously (unfortunately) does not use. Unless you really want to use graffiti while having the built-in keyboard up at the same time, there is nothing that should make you want to upgrade.

If this makes you feel any better, all these new devices coming out with Flash ROM and OS 4.1 will NOT BE UPGRADEABLE AT ALL: Because OS 5 will not run on these devices and their processors!!! So in actuality, every current Palm/Sony/HE user is also feeling your pain.............................

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Posted by rimshaker on 07-25-2002 09:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Being an electrical engineer doesn't mean that you de facto understand how Palm OS works. If you can find any technical flaws in the thread I posted, then please feel free to share.

You don't need to know anything about palmOS itself. I'm far from being a software person anyway. This discussion is just a matter of seeing the physical differnces between ROM and flash memory, and any possible upgrade paths.

Posted by Toby on 07-26-2002 12:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by rimshaker
You don't need to know anything about palmOS itself.

To get the real answer to your question, yes, you do. It is possible to do more than an incremental upgrade such as 3.5.2 to 3.5.3 without flash.

quote:
I'm far from being a software person anyway.

Then you're just going to have to "wait for handspring to release a big patch file or somehting". All the hardware knowledge in the world won't help you get OS 4.x onto a Handspring Visor. Without Handspring implementing the full Springboard libraries in OS 4.x, it's moot.

quote:
This discussion is just a matter of seeing the physical differnces between ROM and flash memory,

The discussion might have started that way, but it grew to include the (im)possibilty of upgrading a Visor which doesn't have flash. Flash is ultimately irrelevant to the upgrade possibilities.

quote:
and any possible upgrade paths.

Your only possible upgrade path is a big (few hundred K) patch file in RAM, but unless someone can rewrite the springboard libraries to make them OS 4.0 compatible, you'd be out of luck.

Posted by EJSHUMAK on 07-26-2002 07:47 AM:

OS5 Changes everything

That really is the salient point on the lack of Flash ROM for Handspring-- OS5 will (from what I understand) need a whole different set of hardware -- hence until we're dealing with an OS5 capable hardware platform, it's kinda a moot point--- NO?

Posted by Toby on 07-26-2002 12:15 PM:

Re: OS5 Changes everything

quote:
Originally posted by EJSHUMAK
That really is the salient point on the lack of Flash ROM for Handspring-- OS5 will (from what I understand) need a whole different set of hardware -- hence until we're dealing with an OS5 capable hardware platform, it's kinda a moot point--- NO?

No, because the installed base of other devices makes it impractical to write _just_ for OS 5 for most apps. OS 4 is a good compromise point, though, since the OS4 and OS5 APIs are identical. Basically someone who wants to write an OS5 app writes an OS4 API app (unless they want to add ARMlets for features of a new OS5 device). low-end OS4 devices will still be viable for longer than other devices (OTOH, there are still original Palms in service, so _that_'s really moot outside of running newer apps).

Posted by EJSHUMAK on 07-26-2002 09:17 PM:

Okay--I though OS5 was a bigger change--

I was under the impression - with all the hype that the OS5 was a whole order of magnitude above OS4 --

As in Windows compared to DOS.

Not just another evolutionary step.--

Posted by edgenut on 07-27-2002 06:16 AM:

Compatability!!

The thing about upgrading to os 5 is it is built for more memory and for better processors, eventuly no software will be compatable we will all have to make the switch, a way for PDA makers to get more $$$ from us

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Posted by EJSHUMAK on 07-27-2002 06:30 AM:

I think so

I really feel that any really improved software will require the additional processing power and memory -- hence OS5 will probably be a world unto itself -- not right away of course -- but eventually like DOS to windows in a PC venacular.

Posted by Toby on 07-27-2002 09:44 PM:

Re: Okay--I though OS5 was a bigger change--

quote:
Originally posted by EJSHUMAK
I was under the impression - with all the hype that the OS5 was a whole order of magnitude above OS4 --

As in Windows compared to DOS.

Not just another evolutionary step.--

OS5 is OS4 for ARM processors, basically. There will be ways to leverage some additional features, but for the most part, you probably won't notice much difference. The bigger changes like allowing for real multitasking won't happen until the next ARM iteration (OS 5.5 or 6.0).

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