VisorCentral.com - Tired about Handspring's Marketing lies on upgradability

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- Visor General Chat (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=31)
-- Tired about Handspring's Marketing lies on upgradability (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=12924)

Posted by Bismarck on 03-13-2001 01:15 AM:

I have a Visor Deluxe for a long time now.

It is OS 3.1 which has 2 key problems:

1) No greyscale support unless someone writes to the hardware directly which very few are willing to do since it's an API now in 3.2 and up.

2) Shortcut bug. D/L DBScan from Pimlico and see how many redundant shortcuts were made every time you reset it. Those useless files eat memory.

I would like a patch to whatever version fixes both. 3.2 I suppose.

Handspring in ALL their products advertises that they are 'springboard' and/or patchable upgradable.

There never once has been a springboard or patch update. Nevermind that lame useless 3.1H3 stuff.

Also, Palm Desktop 4.0 has been out for a while now, no update on that front either from Handspring.

I don't really care about the desktop even though it would be nice to have, but I DO want a patch for the Visor Deluxe to fix those 2 problems with it that I mentioned. If it had a flash upgrade, it would have been fixed LONG AGO.

I cannot see myself buying another Handspring product because none of them are supported. They are orphaned on birth. And my friend says the Handsprings are almost perfect if only for their lack of upgradability so he isn't buying one.

Posted by bradhaak on 03-13-2001 01:26 AM:

Here is a post that I made a number of months ago on PalmStation (actually, it might have been on VisorCentral) on this subject...

I have been hearing this nonsense every since the first Visors came out.

Yes, it is technically possible to put a new OS on a Springboard. However, technically possible does not mean practical. First you would need to take the cost hit of putting a couple of megabytes of ROM (or flash if you don't want to get caught in the same trap the next time that there is an upgrade). Then you have to get users to make the commitment to ALWAYS leave the upgrade Springboard plugged in. You need to do this because chances are you will want to run other programs that need the new OS.

So now you have a wonderful Visor Deluxe that cannot use other Springboard modules and weighs more than the base unit. Why not make it a pass through to another Springboard module? Sorry, the Springboard bus is really just the CPU bus. There is no mechanism for sharing it. Technically, I suppose you could design a way to arbitrate this and have a true pass through. However, I suspect that by the time this wonder of computer engineering was complete, it might be cheaper to just buy a new organizer that already had the new OS.

Speaking of cost, just a dedicated OS upgrade module (which wouldn't help OmniSky users) would cost considerably more than the fifteen dollars that everybody is screaming about for the OS 3.5 upgrade being offered by Palm.

BTW, I own a Visor Deluxe and a Prism. I like the platform, but don't always believe the PR.

Posted by ice5339 on 03-13-2001 02:15 PM:

Yep. I honestly believed that I could get upgrades to the OS, by a company that supports their customers.
But, there is a big difference between Handsprings statement about that the OS CAN be updated, and that it WILL be updated.

Handspring has forgotten it's first loyal customers, the ones that helped the company be what it is today.

In my opinion there will never be a real upgrade to the Deluxe. Handspring has forgotten us

Visor Edge buyers, do you really think Handspring will remember you when their next new product comes out....
Hardly.

Posted by RocketScientist on 03-13-2001 04:10 PM:

I don't quite understand this discussion. I understand the desire for upgradability... but I don't think that we can think of technology in that way anymore. In the past, technology did not accelerate as rapidly as it does today, and upgradability was easy, because things did noti change that rapidly. Now, you buy a computer, and a new technology comes out within 3 months that you can not upgrade too, you just have to make due.

Your Visor works the same as when you bought it. You knew that you were not going to be able to upgrade the OS, just as I knew that I would not be able to upgrade the OS on my Prism... there will probably not be another patch put out for it, ever. I think that this is just the cost of technology advancing so rapidly, Handspring has not forgotten you, I have heard numerous reports where broken units have been replaced well after the warranty was up... that does not sound like forgotten to me.

I don't want this to be a flame... so please don't take it that way at all. I am just saying that we can not hope that our current technology will be upgradable beyond a certain point... and everyday, that point gets shorter and shorter.

-Russ

<Side note> A guy I go to school with purchased a $4000 computer... awesome machine. He does not know much (anything really) about computers, but refused to take classes, and hoped that just by having the programs on the computer, that somehow his life would get easier. All he has ever done on it is surf the internet, send 5 or 6 e-mails, play DVD's, and listen to CD's. Actually, he ended up buying a $4000 clock radio, that he can't set the time on. When I asked him about this, he said he bought it as an investment!!! I am not kidding, that is what he said. Hope he gets his money out of it.
</side note>

Posted by VTL on 03-13-2001 04:17 PM:

I have to agree with Russ. I've never been terribly concerned about the OS upgrade issue.

I've got a Prism now, and still have my old VDx. I don't see any great increase in functionality with the updated OS, and I somehow doubt I will feel any differently when 4.0 comes out.

Besides, the hardware is advancing so rapidly that I usually want to buy a new unit before the older OS becomes an irritation.

Posted by D ev R ay 4Real on 03-14-2001 12:46 AM:

If it is really that big of a deal, just go with Palm.

__________________
God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.

Posted by Bismarck on 03-14-2001 03:05 AM:

Some of you don't get it.

I'm not asking for an OS patch just to have the latest.

But to fix 2 problems, 1 of which affects a lot of people negatively.

This is not unreasonable.

Posted by RocketScientist on 03-14-2001 03:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bismarck
Some of you don't get it.

I'm not asking for an OS patch just to have the latest.

But to fix 2 problems, 1 of which affects a lot of people negatively.

This is not unreasonable.

The first one (no greyscale support) is not really a problem, but a feature that is lacking. You knew that was the case when you bought it... granted, I agree that it sucks that you can't get an upgrade for that, but I got rid of my Palm III for a Prism because of display issues.

The second issue (the shortcut problem) you have already found a solution for. So, while it would be great of Handspring to fix this issue for current owners, given the choices of things to work on... I can see why that would not be a high priority, especially when there is a fix out there for it.

It is not unreasonable, I would agree... but I also understand why there isn't one. I do feel your pain, I know that I will want to upgrade to Palm OS 5.0 when it comes out... I probably will still have my Prism till then. But I figure by that time, hardware, and software will have moved far enough to warrant a new system.
-Russ

Posted by bradhaak on 03-14-2001 03:24 AM:

I agree with you that it would be nice to get a fix for what you call the shortcut bug.

However, lack of grayscale support is not a bug since it was not implemented for v3.1. This was a feature that was added in later versions of the OS. I doubt if grayscale support could even be added to v3.1 since it would touch so many modules of the OS and so many APIs that are in ROM. Chances are that there is no way it could be implemented without a full OS replacement.

Sorry to be such a downer.

Posted by yardie on 03-15-2001 05:12 PM:

Huh?

I don't think Handspring has abandoned Visor and Deluxe ownes. The Visor Deluxe is STILL there best selling product and they are still supporting it. Had they discontinued the line, I would have sympathize with your cause a little more.

GreyScale is not a big deal. I have had a platinum which supports greyscale and I never saw any difference between it and my old Visor Deluxe.

Posted by Bane on 03-16-2001 01:31 AM:

features not updates

Maybe visor deluxe owners should formally request that handspring shutup about patch upgrades. The only upgrades that have ever been released by handspring have been upgrades that Fixed defects. Never have there ever been feature updates!

For example:
Ive got a Visor DLX with palmos 3.1h but palmos 3.3 or 3.5 supports IR hotsyncing and some other things. I would say that advanced IR support is a definite feature update. If I had Rom I would install 3.3 or 3.5 and then install the palmOS software module into rom that supports usb and the springboard slot.
My visor doesnt have rom because handspring says I dont need it and handspring says it will release a software patch to update my OS whenever an importaint feature comes out. Instead I am told that handspring doesnt support IR hotsync with the visor and that I should install a third party app that handspring doesnt support if I want that to work.

Now this is something that I dont have a problem with. The only thing is I would like to see is for someone to hack the handspring webpage so that instead of saying that handspring will release software updates when new features come out. That handspring will release software updates to fix manufacturer design defects only.

That would make me happy. I am a big fan of the truth. I like my visor dlx. I like handspring. I dont mind the limitations of the the device. I do mind the half-lies and mistruths. Lawyers are the only thing worse than marketing and sales type persons. Anyone who's job it is to specificly mis-represent the truth should have the truth beaten into them.

__________________
Bane

Evil Geniuses kick ass.

Posted by Gameboy70 on 03-16-2001 05:47 AM:

Re: features not updates

quote:
Originally posted by Bane
Maybe visor deluxe owners should formally request that handspring shutup about patch upgrades.

Examine the wording in Handspring's FAQ: "We are upgradeable via Springboard modules and software patches." Notice that Handspring says that its products are upgradeable, not that it will actually upgrade them. The answer's simply designed to silence critics, not to bind the company to any responsibility to consumers. That sucks, but Handspring's a business, and pointing out its products shortcomings is simply not on the agenda.

quote:
I am a big fan of the truth. I like my visor dlx. I like handspring. I dont mind the limitations of the the device. I do mind the half-lies and mistruths.

As a politician said to Major Lawrence in Lawrence of Arabia, "A man who tells lies, like me, merely hides the truth, but a man who tells half-lies forgets where he put it." People in sales and marketing aren't only lying to other people; they're lying to themselves. Cognitive dissonance allows them to highlight the good, downplay the bad, and forget what was downplayed.

quote:
Lawyers are the only thing worse than marketing and sales type persons. Anyone who's job it is to specificly mis-represent the truth should have the truth beaten into them.

Or we could give lawyers a shot at redemption by turning them on marketing and sales types.

Posted by dick-richardson on 03-21-2001 01:57 AM:

I don't think Handspring is referring to "upgrading" the OS when they mention the visor is springboard upgradeable. I think they're speaking along the lines of plugging in a phone module to "upgrade" your visor into a pda and a phone.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by BEN on 03-21-2001 02:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I don't think Handspring is referring to "upgrading" the OS when they mention the visor is springboard upgradeable. I think they're speaking along the lines of plugging in a phone module to "upgrade" your visor into a pda and a phone.

I'm pretty sure that Handspring has specifically said that it could upgrade the OS by plugging in a SB module into the Visor.

BEN

Posted by Gameboy70 on 03-21-2001 06:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I don't think Handspring is referring to "upgrading" the OS when they mention the visor is springboard upgradeable. I think they're speaking along the lines of plugging in a phone module to "upgrade" your visor into a pda and a phone.

Ben's pretty much right. The FAQ statement, "We are upgradeable via Springboard modules and software patches," answers the stated question, "Can I upgrade my Visor Edge handheld with future versions of Palm OS?"

Posted by Toby on 03-21-2001 12:05 PM:

Two things...both a bit pedantic, but no offense intended...

quote:
Originally posted by Gameboy70
Cognitive dissonance allows them to highlight the good, downplay the bad, and forget what was downplayed.

Cognitive dissonance is the state caused by holding two conflicting beliefs. It doesn't allow one to do such a thing. It can cause someone to rationalize away the conflict, but it doesn't "allow" them to.

Then in a separate post:

quote:
Ben's pretty much right. The FAQ statement, "We are upgradeable via Springboard modules and software patches," answers the stated question, "Can I upgrade my Visor Edge handheld with future versions of Palm OS?"

Yes, Ben is right, but Handspring does have an out here. Their statement is clearly designed from the standpoint that a module maker who requires OS extensions not present in 3.1 should include them on their module for older Visors so that they are there when they're needed, but not there when not needed. In practice, though, this has been a miserable failure since module makers have found it easier just to say that their modules only support certain Visor models. Handspring then came up with their "gold standard" apparently to shame makers who didn't comply with not being "handspring certified", but this doesn't seem to have been very effective.

Posted by Gameboy70 on 03-22-2001 06:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Two things...both a bit pedantic, but no offense intended...

Cognitive dissonance is the state caused by holding two conflicting beliefs. It doesn't allow one to do such a thing. It can cause someone to rationalize away the conflict, but it doesn't "allow" them to.

No offense taken, but yes, that is pedantic. I let the word "allow" stand synonymous with "enable" (which is less passive than you're implying) rather than use "cause" primarily because cognitive dissonance is a theory -- like most concepts in the social sciences -- not a fact; but it's still an obversable phenomenon that we can talk about meaningfully (not unlike "Freudian slips" or "the subconscious"). It's a subtle, and very subjective, distinction: to me, using the word "cause" would implicitly ratify what I said as a scientific statement, which it wasn't the intent.

Oh well, so much for me calling someone else pedantic . . .

Posted by Toby on 03-22-2001 02:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Gameboy70
No offense taken, but yes, that is pedantic.

lol Can't say I didn't warn ya.

quote:
I let the word "allow" stand synonymous with "enable" (which is less passive than you're implying)

How passive it is doesn't really have anything to do with what I was saying. I was more saying that neither allow or enable should apply in this case. "Causes", "leads to", or some other close synonym would be the only "correct" usages in the way you phrased the sentence. I suppose you could use "allows" or "enables" had you said "Cognitive dissonance theory allows them to {...} by rationalizing away these apparent conflicts." Now we're really getting a bit more pedantic than I'm wont to do this early in the morning, though.

quote:
rather than use "cause" primarily because cognitive dissonance is a theory

Sure, it's mostly theoretical, but allow/enable are rather different concepts than cause/lead. Cognitive dissonance is the state that induces the behavior which you mentioned, not the process by which they perform that behavior which is what "allow" or "enable" would suggest.

quote:
-- like most concepts in the social sciences -- not a fact; but it's still an obversable phenomenon that we can talk about meaningfully (not unlike "Freudian slips" or "the subconscious").

Yes, we can talk about it meaningfully, but only when we're both discussing the same concept.

quote:
It's a subtle, and very subjective, distinction: to me, using the word "cause" would implicitly ratify what I said as a scientific statement, which it wasn't the intent.

Then you could have used the word "leads" instead of "cause" and arrived at a correct statement without such implicit ratification, or qualified your statement by saying "According to current psychological theories, cognitive dissonance causes {...}".

quote:
Oh well, so much for me calling someone else pedantic . . .

Sire! The pedants are revolting!!

Posted by linguas on 03-22-2001 04:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby

Sire! The pedants are revolting!!

Well... let's just say they're kind of irritating!

__________________
Eschew obfuscation!

Posted by Toby on 03-22-2001 06:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by linguas

Well... let's just say they're kind of irritating!

"You said it! They stink on ice!" - King Louieeeeee

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