VisorCentral.com - Palm OS 3.5

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
- Visor & Deluxe (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)
-- Palm OS 3.5 (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=16198)

Posted by ernieba1 on 06-24-2001 02:51 PM:

Quick! Stop fighting! If you keep it up the peacemakers at VC will shut this down!

__________________
-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Posted by bradhaak on 06-24-2001 03:45 PM:

I'm not fighting. I'm just responding in kind to a slightly rude person.

Posted by yardie on 06-24-2001 03:53 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Nt much difference

quote:
Originally posted by bradhaak

Oh, sales at CompUSA?

Hahah. No. I actually do Tech Support so I deal with a lot of end users per week. I know what I am talking about (So do you BTW).

quote:

Now you seem to agree that there are big differences, but people don't need them unless they are not average users. I don't think that there is such a thing as an average user. There are varying degrees of non-average users. I don't think either of us is qualified to be the arbiter of PDA usage.

There may be big differences in the newer OS for programmers. But I don't think there is much difference for the End User. I played with a Palm Device running Palm OS 4 and my Visor running Palm OS 3.5 and really could not tell the difference between the two. How are the new features a benefit to me, the end user, if I cannot use them or don't see them?

I agree with you that the benefits might show up in third party applications. But, not everyone use third party applications on their units. Also, I strongly suspect that programmers like yourself (witrh some time and effort) can code your software so that it works with earlier version of the O.S.

quote:

Second, you say that VC readers are not members of your group of hypothetical typical users. Even if this is true, the person asking the question about OS 3.5 is a VC member, so by your definition, these features must be important to him (or her???). Thank you.

I am being philosophical here. But how can a feature be important to someone if they don't know the feature exist? My statement about VCers is general statement. Not all VCers are power users. I strongly suspect that most of the posters are however.

quote:

Chances are, most people won't care about all of the new features, but I suspect that most will care about some of them. That is the point. You use what you need. The fact that some people don't take advantage of a feature doesn't make it bad for the people that do use it.

Are the new features in the newer OS a need or is it a "nice to have"? Doesn't the Deluxe and Visor do the same thing you bought the unit for when it came out in 1999?

quote:

The Palm VII requirement just means PQA support in the OS. Most of them were written before v3.5 came out. At this time, you needed a Palm VII to use them. This is no longer true. I haven't found a single PQA that won't run with a Palm Vx running OS3.5 and using the Mobile Internet Kit. I have seen one that doesn't do what it is supposed to do, but only because I was connected through my ISP instead of Palm.net. The PQA was supposed to use the tower you were connected through to position you within a couple of miles. Not a huge loss.

OK you have to buy the Mobile Internet Kit and fiddle aroung with that. PLus you have to connect through Palm.net and not your ISP. That sounds like jumping through hoops to me. And does this Mobile Internet Kit even work with the Visor? Please tell me how PQA support is a benefit of the OS if I have to go true so much trouble to set it up. I think you need to differentiate between a Benefit and a Potential Benefit. There is a big difference between the two.

quote:

Just one word of advice though. If you ever get a PDA with Palm OS 4, use X-Master or the Teal hack manager. I have heard a lot of people say that HackMaster is really ugly on the new OS.

Thanks for the advice. I am using X-Master on my Prism

quote:

Same as above. Some will, some won't. But even you will admit that it is a very nice enhancement in v3.5. That is the point of this brawl isn't it?

Umm. I thought this was a lively debate. I really don't consider this thread a brawl. There is no animosity here. You have some valid points as a programmer. And I think I have some valid points as someone that deals with hundreds of end users per week.

Yes some of the features in Palm OS 3.5 are nice to have. But, I could have lived without them. I am sure there are tens of thousands of Visor users that are doing so.

quote:

If you had read my entire statement (or quoted it here), you would probably have picked up on my statement that programming APIs are not exciting to end-users. The programs that support them are. The APIs that are included in Palm OS 3.2 to 3.5 are important to a lot of people because of the programs that they allow to be written and used. At this point they become very important to the end-user.

OK. I understand. But, my question is why can't the same programs be designed to work on versions of the Palm OS older than 3.2. I get the impression that these new software designed for later versions of the OS can also be designed (with some time and effort) to work on earlier versions of the OS. I have seen programs on PalmGear.com in the past that have pretty much the same functionality, but one requires a later version of the OS.

quote:

I am sure that there are significant differences in the OS for programmers. But my arguement was and still is that there is are significant differences for the end user.

That's my point too. Somehow I don't think that this is what you meant to say.

Hahah. I goofed

. You know what I mean though. Yes there may be big differences for programmers, but there is little there for the end users like myself.

Posted by yardie on 06-24-2001 03:56 PM:

Sorry Dude

quote:
Originally posted by bradhaak
I'm not fighting. I'm just responding in kind to a slightly rude person.

Sorry Bradhaak. I never meant to be rude (or come across as being rude). I don't think this is a fight either. It is a great debate

. It would have been better if other posters actually chimes in. Oh well.

Posted by ernieba1 on 06-24-2001 05:28 PM:

OK here's my question then. Why can't someone just take out the current ROM and put in Flash ROM? It doesn't seem too complicated.

__________________
-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Posted by bradhaak on 06-24-2001 09:30 PM:

Re: Sorry Dude

quote:
Originally posted by yardie

Sorry Bradhaak. I never meant to be rude (or come across as being rude). I don't think this is a fight either. It is a great debate . It would have been better if other posters actually chimes in. Oh well.

Yeah, I like debates too, and I never said that I couldn't get slightly rude myself.

BTW - I wasn't serious about the CompUSA line (my son was rolling his eyes at it but I just couldn't resist). You obviously do have a clue even if you are slightly misguided.

Answering a number of points without quoting 'cause the messages are getting too long...

I had seen it in stores for months, but I probably wouldn't have known how great the Mobile Internet Kit is except that I got a free copy at a user group meeting. Our user group meets at Palm headquarters so they are always giving away cool free stuff and lots of Palm employees to answer questions. Now I tell people about it every chance I get. Lots of functionality for the price.

Yes, apps can be written to simulate most of the new features on older chips. However, it comes down to the 80/20 rule. If you can support eighty percent of the user base with twenty percent of the work, the twenty percent that would require eithy percent of the work lose. This is probably a fair estimate of the extra programming to support the older OSs. It is probably also pretty close to the overall user base on 3.1 and older machines that can't be upgraded.

As far as need vs nice to have, it gets tricky. I don't need the doc readers that I use. I don't need color or the hi-res screen on my Sony Clie. I want them and they make me feel warm and fuzzy. Not to mention they give my geekiness a much higher gadget factor. I think this is the point for about ninety percent of the enhancements and third party apps since Palm OS v2 (v1 really sucked and needed to be upgraded).

Posted by Matthew Nichols on 06-25-2001 02:47 AM:

Actually, JPS's PQA browser is superior to the Mobile Internet Kit, which I consider overpriced. Its free, allows you to have a central list of all your PQAs, overcomes the Palm.net tower requirement by allowing you to enter your own zip code, and works on the Visor Deluxe.

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[email protected]

Posted by bradhaak on 06-25-2001 02:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Nichols
Actually, JPS's PQA browser is superior to the Mobile Internet Kit, which I consider overpriced. Its free, allows you to have a central list of all your PQAs, overcomes the Palm.net tower requirement by allowing you to enter your own zip code, and works on the Visor Deluxe.

I haven't used JPS but I have heard that it doesn't work with all PQAs. Is this true?

For me the MIK was free. It was also free for most of my friends 'cause for about three months, the guy that is in charge of it keeps coming to our user group meetings. He gave everybody a couple of copies each time.

Great product for the price.

Besides PQA support, it includes a full version of MultiMail and an SMS program.

Posted by MPM on 06-25-2001 03:09 AM:

But where are you going to get 3.5?

quote:
Originally posted by ernieba1
OK here's my question then. Why can't someone just take out the current ROM and put in Flash ROM? It doesn't seem too complicated.

It's not. I could do it in less than an hour. But the only thing that I can install on the new Flash chip is the very same Palm OS 3.1 that was on the ROM chip!

There is simply nowhere to get a version of Palm OS 3.5 that runs on the Visor Deluxe other than from Handspring. Us owners of a OS 3.1 Deluxe are just plain screwed.

Posted by bradhaak on 06-25-2001 07:02 AM:

Re: But where are you going to get 3.5?

quote:
Originally posted by MPM
It's not. I could do it in less than an hour. But the only thing that I can install on the new Flash chip is the very same Palm OS 3.1 that was on the ROM chip!

There is simply nowhere to get a version of Palm OS 3.5 that runs on the Visor Deluxe other than from Handspring. Us owners of a OS 3.1 Deluxe are just plain screwed.

You are exactly right.

I was going to reply to this but went off to watch a tape of the German Grand Prix (go Ferrari) and forgot to post.

Posted by Mr. Cornell on 06-25-2001 11:09 PM:

Wow this thread is reaching the intensity of Ars Technica Battlefront threads

Lets not flamewar each other...I mean, VC is still a smallish site. Save flames for big techie sites like Ars and Slashdot.

One thing I must say. Since Visors use ordinary, non-programmable ROM (rather annoying IMHO) the only way to upgrade an existing Visor is to open it up and physically swap out the ROM chip. Now I haven't actually opened up my Visor (I've only had it for a month!), but I'm willing to wager than the ROM chip is soldered onto the circuit board. It's very very unlikely that Handspring was nice enough to make a socket and put the ROM chip into the socket. That will make upgrades 100% impossible unless you feel like ripping out the ROM chip and soldering in a new one, which I have a feeling would actually cost more than just replacing the whole damn circuit board, and therefore, the whole PDA since there's not much more to the Visor besides a touch-sensitive LCD screen, some buttons, and some plastic.

Finally: I was unaware that the LCD screen in my Visor is capable of 16 grays. I thought it was only a 1-bit LCD and as such supports only B&W? Is this true?

Posted by Mr. Cornell on 06-25-2001 11:20 PM:

I guess since I just asked a newbeeeee question I'll ask another one.

If I were to open up my Visor, could I swap out the 2MB of built-in RAM and stick in, say, 128 MB??? (Assuming that I could find 128MB RAM chips with the same pin configuration, a big assumption.)

Posted by ernieba1 on 06-25-2001 11:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Cornell
Finally: I was unaware that the LCD screen in my Visor is capable of 16 grays. I thought it was only a 1-bit LCD and as such supports only B&W? Is this true?

Well, first of all, if I'm correct, it is capabile of 16 grays, BUT, the OS only supports 4 grays.

Does 4-bit and 4 grays mean the same thing?

__________________
-Bernie

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
-Dan Quayle

Posted by Mr. Cornell on 06-25-2001 11:48 PM:

No.

4-bit means 2^4 grays or 16 grays
4 grays is actually 2-bit (2^2).

Wow my display really can do 16 grays.
Hmm...that might be why FireViewer sometimes says it is viewing stuff "in 16 grays".

YAY!

Posted by bradhaak on 06-26-2001 12:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Cornell
Finally: I was unaware that the LCD screen in my Visor is capable of 16 grays. I thought it was only a 1-bit LCD and as such supports only B&W? Is this true?

Most mono panels are only capable of displaying black and white (1-bit-per-pixel or 1BPP). The extra levels of gray are achieved by cycling between black and white faster than your eye can differentiate. Your brain translates this to grey. If there is more time spent displaying black, you see dark gray. More time showing white is light gray.

So yes, the OS on you VDx supports 2BPP or 4 grayscale mode. The hardware supports 4BPP or 16 grayscale mode. There are a few apps that program the hardware directly on a VDx to use 16 gray mode.

Posted by bradhaak on 06-26-2001 12:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Cornell
I guess since I just asked a newbeeeee question I'll ask another one.

If I were to open up my Visor, could I swap out the 2MB of built-in RAM and stick in, say, 128 MB??? (Assuming that I could find 128MB RAM chips with the same pin configuration, a big assumption.)

The CPU on the VDX can only support 8MB of RAM. So the answer is a qualified yes. You can replace the memory with higher capacity chips, but not up to 128 MB. Actually, I guess if you could find a compatible chip, you could put in 128 MB of RAM, but you would only be connectd to 8 MB of it.

Posted by sowens on 06-26-2001 01:22 AM:

quote:

Mr. Cornell writes:

Now I haven't actually opened up my Visor (I've only had it for a month!), but I'm willing to wager than the ROM chip is soldered onto the circuit board. It's very very unlikely that Handspring was nice enough to make a socket and put the ROM chip into the socket.

Well, I've had my Vdx apart, just to take a look around. It appears that the 8 Mb of memory and the OS ROM are on a daughter card. I can't be sure, since I'm not familiar with the part numbers, but if it's true, there's no reason that daughter card couldn't be replaced with a new one (containing OS 3.5, of course) for a small fee.

As always, these are just my observations and opinions.

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Posted by netmanswe on 06-26-2001 08:34 AM:

My opnion too

quote:
Originally posted by sowens

Well, I've had my Vdx apart, just to take a look around. It appears that the 8 Mb of memory and the OS ROM are on a daughter card. I can't be sure, since I'm not familiar with the part numbers, but if it's true, there's no reason that daughter card couldn't be replaced with a new one (containing OS 3.5, of course) for a small fee.

As always, these are just my observations and opinions.

This exactly my idea too !

Handspring could do this two possible ways:

1. A send in service where you send in your device, gets it upgraded and mayby a short warranty from HS. Possible cost about $30 - $40 ???

2. You order the memory/cpu board from HS. Do the job yourself and return the old board. No warranty on the work (of course), but a short warranty on the parts. Possible cost $20 - $25 ???

This IS possible to do if Handspring is willing to do it. If they decide to do it they would get a very grateful Visor DL user community and earn a lot in goodwill and mayby even in $$$'s

Posted by ack1313 on 06-27-2001 03:06 AM:

I agree!! I do not see a problem with changing out the daughter card for a new one. Perhaps Handspring could set up a registered service center for the swap if they did not want to bog down their service department, like GETHIGHTECH.COM.
I'd be willing to pay $50.00 for such an upgrade if available!

Posted by cptncelchu on 06-27-2001 03:33 AM:

I think y'all are missing the point of non-Flash ROM. Why would Handspring sell you a $50 upgrade for your Deluxe when you could buy a $200-$250 Platinum?

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