VisorCentral.com - Inane ramblings

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VisorCentral.com (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php)
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Posted by Toby on 08-12-2002 02:38 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
According to your interpretation. I find it easier to believe that the entiretly of the passage is referring to one aspect, rather than tacitly switching gears at some point in the middle.

I find it easier to believe what makes more sense.

quote:
The incongruities throughout the bible that arise when you take that passage to mean there is no spiritual existence, or rather a temporal one.

Not sure what you're on about here, and I've not the time to go back and read through The Ramble, so it'll have to remain unaddressed.

quote:
The same interpretation that is required to decipher any form of communication.

Communication should require little to no deciphering when done properly. The only time interpretation is required is when the sender either doesn't want to be clearly understood or isn't capable of being clearly understood.

quote:
or isn't clear

What reason would God have for being roundabout?

quote:
The bastard!

Well, technically...

quote:
I wasn't necessarily arguing that the Bible doesn't say that animals have no spirit, just the passages you quote don't necessarily say they do. The only_concrete_verse (to the affirmative) I've found is in Psalms. Can't seem to find it right now, though.

They say it pretty plainly to my reading (but then again, there's no telling whether we're reading the same translation).

quote:
Viruses aren't addressed. Why aren't they alive?

They don't fit many of the basic requirements of even single-celled organisms.

Posted by Toby on 08-12-2002 02:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I'm not on board with this idea, but the possibility exists.

Any possibility exists (on a theoretical level), but I think we've beaten that particular horse mercilessly already.

quote:
Regarding your 'image' comment, do you take it to be an all-or-nothing designation?

Yes, and no. If we were made in God's own image, it would imply that either we are as God is, or we were diluted for some reason. Given that we've yet to figure out the universe or how to create one, it would seem that the latter is more likely. Considering also that we tend to be rather petty and power-hungry at times, maybe God did make us in his own image and made sure that we'd have less capability so we couldn't take over (after learning his lesson with Lucifer).

quote:
If not, do you feel it possible that the 'image' chosen to shape us may have been simply free-will and not necessarily goodness?

That's like asking me how I think Santa Claus gets down all those chimneys, or how aliens tend to only land in trailer park type atmospheres.

quote:
If so, are we not all God?

We may be (in the same way that our cells are all us).

Yes, I know that's the premise of God's Debris, but I still haven't read it yet. I'm reading Swim With The Sharks currently, though. I'm curious as to what you'd think of the logic in that one.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-12-2002 06:43 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
What reason would God have for being roundabout?

Maybe not roundabout, but necessarily obfuscating. Possibly the subject matter is incapable of being put to words or human comprehension.

quote:
Well, technically...

This is why I so enjoy debating with you, Toby. There aren't many that would have caught my intent. Thank you.

quote:
...it would imply that either we are as God is, or we were diluted for some reason...

Other options exist. Maybe we are 'purely' as God is in some aspects.

quote:
That's like asking me how I think Santa Claus gets down all those chimneys, or how aliens tend to only land in trailer park type atmospheres.

I didn't ask if you believed it, just if you thought it possible. But, as you've mentioned, the poor horse deserves a proper burial at this point.

quote:
...I'm reading Swim With The Sharks currently, though. I'm curious as to what you'd think of the logic in that one.

I'm on it (will be, rather).

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 08-12-2002 02:20 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Maybe not roundabout, but necessarily obfuscating. Possibly the subject matter is incapable of being put to words or human comprehension.

What a flawed God that would be to want us to understand him and accept him and yet make us incapable of it. I'm hearing a Metallica song in my head right now.

quote:
This is why I so enjoy debating with you, Toby. There aren't many that would have caught my intent. Thank you.

Pas de rien.

quote:
Other options exist. Maybe we are 'purely' as God is in some aspects.

Dunno. What if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us?...

quote:
I didn't ask if you believed it, just if you thought it possible.

I think that in some ways, nearly anything is possible.

quote:
But, as you've mentioned, the poor horse deserves a proper burial at this point.

I can do the service.

quote:
I'm on it (will be, rather).

The more I read of it, the more I laugh and yet, the more I feel like crying.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-13-2002 03:06 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
What a flawed God that would be to want us to understand him and accept him and yet make us incapable of it. I'm hearing a Metallica song in my head right now...

Dunno. What if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us?...

Are they truly imperfections? Is it not hubris to think that human aspirations are Godly as well?

quote:
The more I read of it, the more I laugh and yet, the more I feel like crying.

Thanks for the heads up.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 08-13-2002 05:45 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Are they truly imperfections?

If God wants us to understand him and accept him, and yet made us incapable of it, yes, that's flawed.

quote:
Is it not hubris to think that human aspirations are Godly as well?

Perhaps, but who said that God didn't possess hubris in Godly quantities and ours is not a byproduct of being made in his image?

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-13-2002 08:46 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
If God wants us to understand him and accept him, and yet made us incapable of it, yes, that's flawed

That's different than saying God himself/herself is flawed. He may do flawed things, but that doesn't make him a flawed God.

He may not want us to understand him. It is possible to accept that which you don't understand. You're married, right?

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 08-14-2002 12:58 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
That's different than saying God himself/herself is flawed.

Not by much.

quote:
He may do flawed things, but that doesn't make him a flawed God.

ROFLMAO

quote:
He may not want us to understand him.

He's definitely a flawed God then. Although I find the concept of such a God being plausible if humans were made in Its image.

quote:
It is possible to accept that which you don't understand. You're married, right?

Yes, I'm married, and yet, I don't 'accept' that which I don't understand in that same sense.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-14-2002 03:31 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
He's definitely a flawed God then. Although I find the concept of such a God being plausible if humans were made in Its image.

Actually, that was an aspect of one of my previous points (specifically, the 'are they truly imperfections' question).

To bring my own musings under fire: the question of whether or not a perfect God could do anything imperfect came to mind. Obviously there are a couple of ways of looking at it. One is a question about Omnipotence. A rebuttal could be, even something imperfect would be perfect (I can't paint a black cat with white paint). A rebutted rubuttal could be, I am able to visualize a smoythigging out of nothing, aka in my own mind I am God - we may be players in God's musing. Which raises the question is God a musing in a greater God's mind (I suppose you find the question, "Is God a musing in our collective mind" a more interesting question).

Mine goes to omnipotence.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by NeilMcD on 08-14-2002 12:59 PM:

can you tell I'm a fan?

This is the other thing I love about the movie Dogma. It really pokes fun at the omnipotence belief many Christians have.

SPOILER ALERT

If you've been living under a rock the past several years, Dogma deals with two angels who are cast from heaven by God for rebelling against Her.

After the Pope decrees that anyone who enters a certain church in Red Bank, NJ (it is a Kevin Smith movie) will automatically have their sins forgiven, the angels take advantage of plenary indulgence in which God is bound by the words of the Pope. If the angels enter the church, they will be "forgiven" and will prove God is wrong and therefore, nullify existence. Good movie. Pick it up at your local video rental store.

Toby has a good point: if we're made in His/Her image, what's to say that s/he isn't prone to messing things up once in a while. I chuckle at the thought of God walking around in some pantheon of the Gods and tripping over a small pebble.

Posted by Toby on 08-14-2002 02:58 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
Actually, that was an aspect of one of my previous points (specifically, the 'are they truly imperfections' question).

Defining 'perfection' down?

quote:
To bring my own musings under fire: the question of whether or not a perfect God could do anything imperfect came to mind. Obviously there are a couple of ways of looking at it. One is a question about Omnipotence. A rebuttal could be, even something imperfect would be perfect (I can't paint a black cat with white paint). A rebutted rubuttal could be, I am able to visualize a smoythigging out of nothing, aka in my own mind I am God - we may be players in God's musing. Which raises the question is God a musing in a greater God's mind (I suppose you find the question, "Is God a musing in our collective mind" a more interesting question).

Mine goes to omnipotence.

Actually, according to that Shark book, God is not omnipotent.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-14-2002 05:31 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Defining 'perfection' down?

Absolutely.

quote:
Actually, according to that Shark book, God is not omnipotent.

I haven't gotten to that part yet. Just to make sure we're talking about the same book, does it begin with an anecdote regarding the Minnesota Twins?

Regardless, He would need to be or the possibility for a stronger god exists. IOW, it wouldn't be my god.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 08-14-2002 07:12 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I haven't gotten to that part yet. Just to make sure we're talking about the same book, does it begin with an anecdote regarding the Minnesota Twins?

Not that I recall, although there is a book by Harvey Mackay with the same title (albeit different subtitles). Unless you purchased it in a religious shop, it's probably not the same one: http://www.gospeloutfitters.com/gospelbooks.html. My brother-in-law saw it in something he was reading last weekend while my wife was visiting, and decided he needed a copy [he's an 'elder' in some protestant church (episcopal or methodist or something)]. My wife was intrigued by the concept, so she picked up a copy too.

quote:
Regardless, He would need to be or the possibility for a stronger god exists. IOW, it wouldn't be my god.

Then you're wrong and ignorant of the Bible according to this guy.

Posted by dick-richardson on 08-28-2002 12:35 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Matrix

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
Not that I recall, although there is a book by Harvey Mackay with the same title (albeit different subtitles).

I started the wrong book. I didn't figure a book about God would start off with stories regarding the Minnesota Twins.

quote:
Then you're wrong and ignorant of the Bible according to this guy.

That sucks.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by BobbyMike on 08-28-2002 05:40 AM:

That sucks.

Why? He's just a guy after all, not God....

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by Yorick on 08-28-2002 07:04 AM:

"Weell, Zaphod's just zis guy, y'know?"

__________________
The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.

Posted by Toby on 08-28-2002 11:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
[...] Why? He's just a guy after all, not God....

Not to mention that he's a guy who claims there are no contradictions in the Bible (ignoring the fact that his omnipotence argument is contradicted directly in another place - Matthew IIRC "There is nothing which God cannot do" or something to that effect). That little passage there then invalidates his arguments as to why the Christian God and the Muslim God cannot be the same.

Posted by Yorick on 09-13-2002 02:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
... Matthew IIRC "There is nothing which God cannot do" or something to that effect).

It'll cure that ring of fire for ya too.

__________________
The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.

Posted by NeilMcD on 10-08-2002 04:45 PM:

since it was mentioned in another thread....

here goes...

buuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmp, there it is!

Posted by KRamsauer on 10-08-2002 05:38 PM:

Re: since it was mentioned in another thread....

quote:
Originally posted by NeilMcD
here goes...

buuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmp, there it is!

What is this bump thing?

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