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Posted by dick-richardson on 08-18-2001 06:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
O.K. first question is: How many of you who dislike the state of the United States have ever LIVED in another country? I grew up overseas, in one of the most corrupt countries with a one-sided government. Anyone who spoke against the leaders were imprisoned or were amazingly killed in some accident. The level of corruption in the U.S. is incredibly minute compared to other countries around the world.

That's nice. There's too much for my liking.

quote:
As far as missile defense and weapons of mass destruction go, how many of you making comments know someone who works in this arena? Well, as a matter of fact, I do: me. The missiles used in missile defense are NOT weapons of mass destruction. Bush is infact in favor of cutting back on the number of nuclear weapons in the U.S.

I caught this piss-poor argument before. Tell me exactly HOW he plans on removing the missles that are coming towards us. Big fishing nets? Sharp-shooters? Mimes launched from cannons?

quote:
As far as the military goes, I think many people take for granted that the U.S. is a super power. How did we become a super power? It wasn't with a military the size we have now, thanks to Clinton. Our military is in trouble as far as size goes as it is right now because of how much Clinton desimated it (he cut back the size of the military for those of you who don't know). These soldiers protect the way of life of this country and they deserve more respect and admiration and support than most U.S. citizens give them.

I want to know why I should give a rat's ass about being a super power. Peru isn't and they seem to be doing fine.

quote:
In reference to the dealth penalty: What would you rather happen to a convicted murderer: 1) Punishment for the crime he/she has commited in direct proportion to the crime; 2) Confined leisure living with much of the same niceties of life that you and I enjoy like cable TV, internet, etc.

Thank you for bringing that up. Instead of biasedly killing our criminals, they should be put to work for society. Our road construction workers make $10-$15 an hour. Our garbage men make close to the same. The government could afford Bush's tax cut if they weren't paying those wages. Most of them are seasonal jobs, so the people doing that work now aren't able to count that income as stable anyway.

quote:
Second, there is actual Biblical support for capital punishment,

And against getting tattoos and/or any body piercings, homosexuality, eating pork, working on Sundays, slavery, having sex with a woman during her period, ad infinitum.

quote:
"The wages of sin is death" and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." In other words, everyone is a sinner, and anyone that sins is convicted and sentenced to death. Only belief and trust in Jesus Christ as the one who has taken that sentance in place of you will save you from that death penalty.

And you are able to correctly identify 100% of the time which incidences need to be punished by death according to the will of God? Were you around while bkbk was member?

That's [one of] my problem(s) with Religion. It takes a hell of a lot of hubris for any human or group of humans to claim they know God's intent. Were I God, I'd be pretty pissed.

quote:
China's human rights violations are not comparable to capital punishment in my opinion.

That's yours. Mine is that as long as we are seen killing children, any admonishments to other countries will be ignored.

quote:
The government supported killings that take place are not necessarily murderers or even criminals as we see them. They could be people that have spoken a word against the government in public. They could be children that happen to be an addition to a family that already has the government limit of children. The capital punishment issue isn't the only aspect of the human rights violations in China. I'm not going into them because they haven't been brought up yet.

I'm not saying that China doesn't have areas they need work on. There's that whole speck and splinter quote from the Bible that you should remember, though.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by Toby on 08-19-2001 06:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by PDAENVY
While my comments about Carter may not relevant to what you meant, they most certainly are quite relevant to what you posted.

Considering that you were unable to discern the clear meaning of what I posted, I maintain that it is still irrelevant.

quote:
Hypocrisy n. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that one does not really have.

Dictionary definitions really don't do much more than demonstrate the ability to cut and paste.

quote:
Sure, we all lie. But stating that all humans are hypocritical is painting with an overly broad brush and frankly not very interesting.

I really don't care how interesting it is. Is it the truth? If so, that's all that matters.

quote:
Responding to the original poster with "What do you expect? They're human!" implies that there is no value in trying to hold elected officials to any standards and that the very act of voting is absurd!

I said no such thing. Quite the contrary (I guess you ignored the parts I said about raising the bar for ourselves and those around us which would in turn eventually ripple to the officials we elect). As long as the general public holds itself to such a pitifully low standard, our elected officials really aren't going to be much to write home about either.

Posted by Toby on 08-19-2001 07:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I want to know why I should give a rat's ass about being a super power. Peru isn't and they seem to be doing fine.

You were in Peru recently?

quote:
Thank you for bringing that up. Instead of biasedly killing our criminals, they should be put to work for society. Our road construction workers make $10-$15 an hour. Our garbage men make close to the same. The government could afford Bush's tax cut if they weren't paying those wages. Most of them are seasonal jobs, so the people doing that work now aren't able to count that income as stable anyway.

Road construction and garbage collection are 'seasonal'? What world do you live in? Also, none of that stuff is paid for directly at the federal level anyway.

quote:
That's yours. Mine is that as long as we are seen killing children, any admonishments to other countries will be ignored.

So we should ignore the admonishments of any countries which allow abortion?

quote:
I'm not saying that China doesn't have areas they need work on. There's that whole speck and splinter quote from the Bible that you should remember, though.

Ahem...which one are you suggesting is the one with the splinter/beam/(whatever your particular translation of Luke uses)?

Posted by Burns on 08-20-2001 04:37 AM:

quote:
I caught this piss-poor argument before. Tell me exactly HOW he plans on removing the missles that are coming towards us. Big fishing nets? Sharp-shooters? Mimes launched from cannons?

I'm definitely in favor of the mimes. That's hilarious

Have you been following the news recently. We successfully shot down a missile a couple of weeks ago during a test. Besides, do you not remember the patriot missiles during the Gulf War? It's a similar idea. But to answer your question seriously (in case it was asked seriously) it's done with a missile designed specifically for destroying another missile, not obliterating an entire city or even a city block. Research it! there's plenty of info about how it's done.

- Burns

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Posted by dick-richardson on 08-20-2001 05:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
You were in Peru recently?

No. I pulled a country off the top of my head to demonstrate that being a superpower isn't a necessity for quality of life. I should've picked Switzerland or Japan instead.

quote:
Road construction and garbage collection are 'seasonal'? What world do you live in?

road construction, yes. It's hard to work on a road that's covered in 6" of ice and snow. Garbage is year-round. Again, I could've picked better examples.

quote:
Also, none of that stuff is paid for directly at the federal level anyway.

Good point. I'm sure a solution could be reached.

quote:
So we should ignore the admonishments of any countries which allow abortion?

Absolutely not. We shouldn't ignore the admonishments of anyone. My point is that China already has a track record for ignoring the requests of other countries (supplying weapons to Iran and North Korea come to mind - allow me to check for accuracy) and then claiming that we do the same (in supplying weapons to Taiwan), so it's all the same to them. IOW, America should consider all criticism, but should also be prepared to have its criticism rejected in cases of hypocrisy - as per human nature. Rather, they should work to eliminate hypocrisy.

quote:
Ahem...which one are you suggesting is the one with the splinter/beam/(whatever your particular translation of Luke uses)?

Magnitude wasn't a consideration in my mind when I posted the allusion.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by ToolkiT on 08-20-2001 05:36 AM:

Re: Ok I'll jump in here!

quote:
Originally posted by RSGMOOSE
Here are some things to ponder:

1. Perhaps Dubya's thinking on missile defense is: If we build a defense system that shows we can shoot down other's missles then mayben the others will think it futile to build the first missles since they can be shot down and Russia went broke trying to keep up with the US in the cold war. Therefore, the other's won't waste their dollars on building and escalating because America has proven that we will not stop on spending for Defense (or offensive) weapons.

Perhaps he is thinking that indeed...
If you is, you guys are in trouble...I'm glad I live in a country with only 1 nuke aimed at.... and that target is thousands of miles away from where I live..

quote:
Originally posted by RSGMOOSE
2. Capital Punishment: We do "kill" more people than perhaps other countries however they are typically tried and convicted and it takes on average 10 to 14 years for the capital offense to be carried out. Now in Somalia the ethnic cleansing there took the lives of 2 Million and who was the judge and who was the jury? Same thing in the greater Yugoslavia-Baltic issue the Milasovic (spelling) is being tried for.

2 wrongs do not make a right... I can't go stealing your car because somebody else is stealing trucks...
The fact is that the US critisizes on things they do themselves...
Killing someone is not an option IMHO, what makes you any better than the average killer in the street if you would?
Lock them up, make the work off their sentence, and don't put then in the 5star cells. But even then, a golden cage is still a cage...

quote:
Originally posted by RSGMOOSE
3. Abortion: IMHO the women can choose to abort but should obtain legal permission from the father.

Mmm how about in a rape case?
I think your concept is right though..

quote:
Originally posted by RSGMOOSE
These are my opinions and I'm still thankful that I live in America because I know that the "secret police" won't show up on my doorstep tomorrow as a result. And consider that if Hitler had won the war or Japan, where would we be now? I'll accept this reality and not dwell on another.

Not only in the US you can say what you think.... A lot of countries are a lot more 'free' than the US...
But it is a freedom I cherish myself too..

[disclaimer]This is all my personal opion etc. etc. etc.
[/disclaimer]

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Posted by dick-richardson on 08-20-2001 05:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Burns
I'm definitely in favor of the mimes. That's hilarious Have you been following the news recently. We successfully shot down a missile a couple of weeks ago during a test. Besides, do you not remember the patriot missiles during the Gulf War? It's a similar idea. But to answer your question seriously (in case it was asked seriously) it's done with a missile designed specifically for destroying another missile, not obliterating an entire city or even a city block. Research it! there's plenty of info about how it's done.

I've read some of them. So they are shot down using missles. So what happens when you remove the computer chip directing the missle toward incoming missles and replace it with one that directs it toward, oh, say Moscow? Would we do this? Probably not. Does Russia need to keep that capability in mind, though? Absolutely, if they're remotely intelligent. Do you understand my point, yet? Regardless of our stated reason for the missle launchers, our neighbors have to be worried about their capabilities.

As an aside, I did see how effective they were. I have to admit I was impressed. I expected them to perform significantly worse than they did.

BTW, I support mime launchings as well.

__________________
-Joshua
Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

Posted by bagelche on 08-20-2001 02:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Burns

[....] Have you been following the news recently. We successfully shot down a missile a couple of weeks ago during a test. Besides, do you not remember the patriot missiles during the Gulf War? It's a similar idea. [...] Research it! there's plenty of info about how it's done.

- Burns

I couldn't let this one go by. Our "successful" test, the first non-failure in ages, coming at a cost of $100 million was rigged. you can check the story at Salon. Additionally our "smart weapons" during the Gulf War were not so smart. I don't have the data immediately in front of me, but targets were far more often missed than hit and this was made up for by a much greater intensity of bombing.

These missile defense systems are incredibly inaccurate, ridiculously expensive, and terrible politics. When 1 in 5 children in this country live below the miserably low poverty line, there is no justification for spending tens of billions of dollars on wasted efforts like these.

-bagelche

Posted by BobbyMike on 08-20-2001 04:24 PM:

I gotta get that new computer, this sucks being able to get online about once a week from work.

Abortion is mostly a preventable occurrence (statistically, abstinence seems to work best). People being more responsible during sex would put an end to the vast majority of unwanted babies. Clothing the issue in terms of "personal choice" steers it away from the real issue, that of personal responsibility.

We shouldn't be worried about missiles from another 'superpower', but from internal and external terrorists. The true mark of a "big" player in the world today seems to be economic strength, not nuke capability. (that doesn't stop the 'wanna-be's' like Pakistan and Libya from trying to join the nuke club)

Criticism hurts, sure, but we need to realize even in this great country we make mistakes. We also can't wait until we're perfect to admonish others. Carter, for example, was a lousy president- totally ineffective as a leader- but he's turned into a great humanitarian, by example.

People are hypocrites, myself included. I suggest that you do as Toby suggested and raise your personal bar. Attempt to do your personal best every day. You don't need to live up to any other man, or woman's 'bar'. If you're effective enough, you might compel others to follow your example and try doing their personal best. You don't have to follow any particular religion, philosophy, or political tenets to do good.

If you think your surroundings suck, try fixing things instead of leaving. Don't opt out. I personally find it hard to respect someone who complains about things, but can't seem to find the time to try and make things better (in small or large ways).

Sometimes you can't change things without causing a ruckus by shouting out things that people find offensive (thanks d-r!).

The theory of public school is nice, the reality of it sucks. Too much time spent in politics, and not enough time in education. Did anyone else read about the school in California that had 43 Valedictorians? Seems the school didn't want anybody feeling bad because they didn't make the top spot. The same spirit infuses the Army. How can people excel if you take away their motivation?

Love and kisses

BobbyMike (aka Robert Michael, aka The Hypocrite Kid)

__________________
"I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."

Posted by septimus on 08-20-2001 04:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BobbyMike
The theory of public school is nice, the reality of it sucks. Too much time spent in politics, and not enough time in education. Did anyone else read about the school in California that had 43 Valedictorians? Seems the school didn't want anybody feeling bad because they didn't make the top spot. The same spirit infuses the Army. How can people excel if you take away their motivation?

The reality of it sucks in most situations, but not all. I can think of two public ed situations that don't suck:

1) Rich, white suburbs
2) Charter Schools

The first isn't exactly repeatable, the 2nd is. Look into Charter Schools, they rock

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Posted by chuckster on 08-20-2001 04:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn

The reality of it sucks in most situations, but not all. I can think of two public ed situations that don't suck:

1) Rich, white suburbs
2) Charter Schools

The first isn't exactly repeatable, the 2nd is. Look into Charter Schools, they rock

The highschool that I attended was excellent. It was in no way a "rich white suburb". Only about 20% of the students were white. The majority were African American, and the rest were mainly Aisian. The school however was excellent. My high school education prepared me for College, and my work (I am studying Computer Science at UMD, and I work for the Government doing web design).

In our country, every state, and county handle education differently. It all depends on where you live. If the state's or county's education history is bad, then I agree, public education doesn't work. But there are many areas (not necessarily "rich white suburbs") that provide excellent public education.

Posted by septimus on 08-20-2001 05:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuckster
The highschool that I attended was excellent. It was in no way a "rich white suburb". Only about 20% of the students were white. The majority were African American, and the rest were mainly Aisian. The school however was excellent. My high school education prepared me for College, and my work (I am studying Computer Science at UMD, and I work for the Government doing web design).

In our country, every state, and county handle education differently. It all depends on where you live. If the state's or county's education history is bad, then I agree, public education doesn't work. But there are many areas (not necessarily "rich white suburbs") that provide excellent public education.

Ok, I admit, I was fishing. sorry.

I will say, however, that race discussions aside, there is a serious urban/suburban divide in this country re: education, and something needs to be done. Charter schools have done a pretty good job.

BTW: I rescind the 1st statement and change it to "urban/suburban divide is a problem"

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Posted by chuckster on 08-20-2001 05:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dietrichbohn

I will say, however, that race discussions aside, there is a serious urban/suburban divide in this country re: education, and something needs to be done. Charter schools have done a pretty good job.

I agree. There is a problem with the school system. And it makes sense that the main difference in schools tends to follow the "urban/suburban divide". It doesn't always happen that way, but sadly it tends to follow that pattern. As for the racial factor, it seems as though society tends to divide itself by race, and once again, sadly there tends to be a division based on race. As you said, something needs to be done...what that something is, I really don't know. You are right that charter schools have done a decent job, but not everyone can go to a charter school.

Posted by Toby on 08-20-2001 05:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
No. I pulled a country off the top of my head to demonstrate that being a superpower isn't a necessity for quality of life. I should've picked Switzerland or Japan instead.

The point still holds, though. Have you been to either of those recently either? How would you know how they're doing, otherwise? Granted, I doubt Switzerland is doing that badly, but Japan has certainly had some hard times recently from what I've heard.

quote:
Absolutely not.

Why not? How is it not hypocritical for someone to admonish us for killing teenagers convicted of committing heinous crimes when their country allows the killing of an unborn child?

quote:
We shouldn't ignore the admonishments of anyone.

Why not? If we shouldn't ignore admonishments from anyone, then there is no reason why we should refrain from offering admonishments to anyone.

quote:
My point is that China already has a track record for ignoring the requests of other countries (supplying weapons to Iran and North Korea come to mind - allow me to check for accuracy) and then claiming that we do the same (in supplying weapons to Taiwan), so it's all the same to them.

And why should we judge our actions by their yardstick?

quote:
IOW, America should consider all criticism, but should also be prepared to have its criticism rejected in cases of hypocrisy - as per human nature. Rather, they should work to eliminate hypocrisy.

Reduce it? Definitely. Eliminating it is undoubtedly an impossible task.

quote:
Magnitude wasn't a consideration in my mind when I posted the allusion.

It's part and parcel of the quote from Luke, though. It chastises for pointing out a mote of dust in one's brother's eye while having a beam in one's own eye. The U.S.'s chiding China on human rights violations is hardly such a case. Our record is definitely not perfect, but we're hardly in China's league as of yet.

Posted by Toby on 08-20-2001 05:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dick-richardson
I've read some of them. So they are shot down using missles. So what happens when you remove the computer chip directing the missle toward incoming missles and replace it with one that directs it toward, oh, say Moscow? Would we do this? Probably not. Does Russia need to keep that capability in mind, though? Absolutely, if they're remotely intelligent. Do you understand my point, yet? Regardless of our stated reason for the missle launchers, our neighbors have to be worried about their capabilities.

Two different kinds of missles. The type of missle that you use to shoot down an airborne target won't have (and doesn't need) the payload capacity that a long-range ICBM/cruise/whatever type missle would. Think of it like using bottle rockets to shoot down roman candles. We've already got roman candles that can be used to shoot at somebody. Why would we want to shoot at them with bottle rockets?

Posted by BobbyMike on 08-20-2001 06:07 PM:

Public school does suck and will always. It's my opinion and I ain't changing it. It's almost impossible to get a real education in American public schools. The curriculum is stunted and debased from the meddling of 'social scientists' trying to rewrite the past and child psychologists trying to prevent kids from feeling bad. Good teachers are hampered by rules and restrictions on how and what they can teach. Children are passed for mediocre work (not really their fault) and feelings are more important than knowledge. Charter schools do open up the educational field, but as long as the majority of kids get taught in big public schools, we are going to be in trouble in this country. Too much of what goes on in our schools is dictated by union needs and political necessity instead of the children's needs.
My wife and I homeschool our kids. We follow a great curriculum that we chose for it's fullness.
I guess public schools could work if we dismantled the present bloat and closed the big schools. Smaller schools with more local autonomy would be better. Multi grade classrooms work also. Keep the majority of the school taxes working on programs that are effective, not that fit a politicians or a unions ideas of what "could/would/should" work.
Pay teachers more and bureaucrats less. Pay parents to teach their own kids (in the home or at school). Reward excellence and give extra attention to those under performing, instead of diluting standards and ignoring those that can't keep up. Instill responsibility in the kids by giving them responsibilities. Get rid of any kind of tenure system. Don't vote for politicians who won't put their own kids in the schools that they say are good enough for yours.
Gotta go.

Me again

__________________
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Posted by K. Cannon on 08-20-2001 06:37 PM:

and quit assuming that all children possess the same inherent "teachability." A child's course of study, including field of study and level of education reached, should be based on each child's natural ability, desire, temperment, and aptitude--

every child is not going to perform well in math, science, social studies, english, shop, sports, public speaking, political science, history, physics, and band. There are differences among students that should be recognized instead of blindly attempting to educate each child the same way.

Posted by VTL on 08-20-2001 07:08 PM:

To address a misconception - the missles used in the missle defense system currently being tested do NOT have an explosive warhead (conventional or nuclear). Instead, the system uses a "kinetic kill" vehicle, which destroys the incoming ballistic missle in a high-speed collision.

In other words, it's a completely different system, very different from the offensive ballistic weapons currently in our arsenal. you could redirect it to Moscow, Beijing or where ever and it wouldn't do much damage - even if it had the range to reach those sites.

I wouldn't want one to land on my house, mind you, but the objections to missle defense is not that the defensive missles have an offensive capability.

Rather, the objections are that they might tend to render an opponent's offensive missles ineffective, thereby (a) maybe giving us an incentive to launch a first strike secure behind a missle shield, and/or (b) prompting another country to build ever more missles so they may overwhelm the shield, leading to an arms race.

Posted by Burns on 08-20-2001 08:12 PM:

Thank you VTL. Well stated!

- Burns

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Posted by dick-richardson on 08-20-2001 11:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toby
The point still holds, though. Have you been to either of those recently either? How would you know how they're doing, otherwise? Granted, I doubt Switzerland is doing that badly, but Japan has certainly had some hard times recently from what I've heard.

Your focusing on specifics. My point - which still holds - is that being a superpower is not a necessity for economic security.

quote:
Why not? How is it not hypocritical for someone to admonish us for killing teenagers convicted of committing heinous crimes when their country allows the killing of an unborn child?

You misread my post. I never said it wasn't hypocritical. I said that we shouldn't ignore criticism, regardless of hypocrisy. In your example, the hypocrisy is obvious. That doesn't invalidate their criticism. It only put into question their motivation.

quote:
Why not? If we shouldn't ignore admonishments from anyone, then there is no reason why we should refrain from offering admonishments to anyone.

Agreed, in a slightly more perfect world. As it stands, we should count on other countries to play the hypocrisy game, but hold ourselves to a higher standard.

quote:
And why should we judge our actions by their yardstick?

I definitely didn't mean to imply that. Our yardstick should be greatness.

quote:
It's part and parcel of the quote from Luke, though. It chastises for pointing out a mote of dust in one's brother's eye while having a beam in one's own eye. The U.S.'s chiding China on human rights violations is hardly such a case. Our record is definitely not perfect, but we're hardly in China's league as of yet.

Part and parcel? Maybe. But it is possible to understand the passage w/o considering magnitude - and that's the idea I was trying to get across.

__________________
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Abortion: Darwinism at its finest.

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