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-- Which App's won't work on 8MB Flash Springboard? (http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/showthread.php?threadid=5150)

For those of you who have played around with the 8MB Flash Module, I would like to know a List of Software/Apps that DON'T Work directly off the 8MB Springboard Module.

www.palmpower.com has a review of 3 springboards, and lists some programs that don't work:

AvantGo's channel databases
TealDoc
AportisDoc

Don't know what others.

iSilo is supposed to work well. Here's why:-


At 07:31 PM 12/4/99 EST, you wrote:
>Can I use iSilo documents purely off the 8MB Flash Memeory Springboard of
>Handspring VISOR. Does the iSilo need to use the on board memory on the VISOR
>to funciton?
>
>Thanks


Yes, I believe there should be no problems storing either the
iSilo application or iSilo documents in the Flash module.

Best,
Darren Chi
iSilo

I haven't found any problems with applications running on the Flash module, although out of the list above, I am only using TealDoc and AvantGo.

It seems to me that the applications themselves (*.prc files) seems to work, just not when they try to access data (*.pdb files) on the card. It seems that apps don't have permission (or capability, I am not terribly technical) to write to the module. The reason that TealDoc crashed on me was when I try to exit a document, TealDoc wants to write to the .pdb with a bookmark (I guess), so that the next time I open that document, it is on the same page. When the .pdb is on the card, I get a Fatal Exception. When it is internal, no problems.

I have both the TealDoc and AvantGo apps on the card, and they have been working just fine...........as long as I leave the data in internal memory.

It appears that BackupBuddy doesn't know yet how to back up stuff moved to the Flash module. After moving an app and some databases to flash, backupbuddy archived the
files as though they had been deleted.
I've sent a query out to BB support about this.

Soul Raven

I also read your posting on the other string.
My PDA-IQ is low-average!

Q: Lets take the example of AvantGo ( OR any for that matter)- Can you Keep the Files/Databases/APP that have a problem on the Springboard and move 'em to the Main 'Thing' on an as-needed basis?
What I'm trying to get to is- Although Things like AvantGo and TealDOC dont work well of the Springboard - can I 'Store' the "data" (or whatever) there and move them to the main memory whenever I need to use it.

Looks like I asked the same question twice - but that's my PDA-IQ workin!

Thanks


[This message has been edited by affirm (edited 12-12-1999).]

affrim--

I don't see anything wrong with that, other than it being a pain to move things back and forth. I could see doing that with docs for TealDoc, but there are too many with AvantGo to be worth my while.

Actually, I have done that a couple of times, since you cannot install straight from the PC to the Flash card. It's kind of like playing Musical Chairs with the data.

I also replied in the other thread, but just to reiterate, I *do* have the AvantGo and TealDoc apps on the Flash Card, but I have left the docs and databases on internal memory.

[This message has been edited by Soul Raven (edited 12-13-1999).]

Here's What I got in Reply to this Question From One Company:-
(Would all your products work DIRECTLY off the 8MB Springboard Module of Handspring VISOR? Would they need to use ON-Board Memory to funcution?)


"At this time, our products do not operate from the Handspring device as is the case with most of the available software packages. Handspring's selection of memory has been problematic for most developers. In addition, they have not been able to ship developer devices on which to test new solutions.

We anticipate having a solution for the Handspring soon, however. Please watch our web site for details."

@Hand Medical

Basically any program that has static datafiles that are never modified will work in Flash. For example, when testing the 8MB Flash I moved all of the MyBible software (app and data) to flash. It ran fine, but when I added any bookmarks they were not saved (which makes sense). Remember that you can always move parts of a program to flash. Keep the db files that change on the Visor, and move the programs that are static to ROM.

------------------
James Hromadka
VisorCentral.com
Personal Website: http://www.Hromadka.com

Yes, it's too bad that it had to be designed that way. I don't claim to have anywhere near the knowledge required to say whether this can be changed or not, but it certainly would be nice to have the card function in the same manner as internal memory. Not knowing how Flash cards work, I would say that it would have to have it's own power supply to maintain a current, then it could be straight RAM like the Visor has internally. That I would buy more than one of. You should see the library of Zip disks for my laptop.

Not having used the MyBible software, I am curious about something. When you exit the app, and then return, are you on the same "page" or back at the beginning of the chapter/book?

affirm--

OK, here is what I have from additional testing. These are just the problems that I had. If you want a list of everythin I *did* get to work on the card, or you want me to try a specific app for you, let me know:

Acid Freecell
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Upon startup (activation, whatever), I get:
<LI>,Line 1: Not Enough Memory to run Acid
<LI>Freecell
</UL>

Pocket Poker
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Upon exit, I got:
<LI>MemoryMgrNew.c
<LI>Line: 1862, Not a Handle
</UL>

TealDoc
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>When accessing a document that is loaded on the card:
<LI>DataMgr.c, Line: 5006,
<LI>Resizing record
</UL>

These were all Fatal Exceptions, and were cleared with a soft reset. Everything worked fine when I moved the files in question back to internal memory.

Also, I suppose it's not really an error, but I ran into some inconsistancies with some 3rd party launchers.

Launcher III: My first problem was that I was still using ver 1.4. It had problems with a power-off removal of a Springboard (both Backup and Flash). It went into some sort of spasm and kept redrawing the main form. Upgrading to ver 1.51 fixed this.

It also seems to have a problem with the bullets, indicating that an app is on the card. It will correctly put a bullet by an app that is on the card, but it also puts a bullet next to every single app on the same page that is alphbetically higher than it. For example, when I first put in the Backup module, it identified and put a bullet next to the "Backup" app icon. It also put a bullet next to every app on the same page that began with the letter "A", even if it was not on the card. With the Flash module, the "File Mover" icon has a bullet, as well as every app that starts with A, B, C, D, and E.

This was not nearly as annoying as the fact that it doesn't remember what tab an icon was on when it is moved to the card, or the card is removed and re-inserted. Since I couldn't use the docs, I moved all my apps over, only to have them promptly show up in "Unfiled". I dutifully organized them on their little tabs again, removed and re-inserted the card, and wham, right back in "Unfiled". The default launcher does remember where they were, but to be fair, the poor guy that wrote Launcher III (which is my favorite, thanks dude!) could not possibly have anticipated this, but will probably work it out in a later version (Please!).

GoBar: This has the same issue with not remembering what tab or category the apps were in, but on top of that, has no bullets whatsoever on any app.


That's all I have found so far.

I mentioned the display problems of Launcher III in my review of the 8MB module. If I recall correctly, MyBible went to the place where I was, but didn't save bookmarks. The app itself is &lt;30K so it is not a big deal to leave it on the Visor.

------------------
James Hromadka
VisorCentral.com
Personal Website: http://www.Hromadka.com

JH--

Thanks again. I had read your review and &lt;suck-up&gt; like always it was excellent and very informative &lt;/suck-up&gt;. I missed the part about Laucnher III the first time. Must be the ole dyslexia kicking in again.

Maybe I need to start using MyBible and CSpotRun. It looks like the only difference is not being able to add one's own bookmarks. It's funny, I have NEVER created a custom bookmark in my (almost) three years of using a Palm device, but now I think I feel bad having the option taken away. Oh well.

And I don't know if it is related to the above access issues, but I found it curious when I tried to delete an e-book on the Flash card. I did &lt;command:&gt; D to get into the "Delete" application. When I tried to switch from internal memory to the card, I got a message telling me that the Applications Launcher cannot delete items located on the card. The File Mover app seems to be the only way to delete things from the module.

I don't know if that's really relevant to the thread, but I thought it was interesting.

I'm greatly disappointed with the limitations of the flash module. While most applications I have run fine directly off the module with no noticeable speed problems, soft crashes routinely occur when accessing data files stored either alone or along with the app on the module. This happens even when no modification is made to the file. There are a few exceptions, but I haven't run across any.
Since apps are generally small, and databases such as dictionaries, avantgo web pages, compendiums, and etexts are much larger, consuming precious memory real estate, this limitation of the module makes it just about useless for users like me who use the palm to store and access information databases.
The requirement to swap files back and forth when needed and to endure the punishment of waiting through agonizingly slow soft resets (paperclip anyone?)if you forget that a data file--often unmarked as residing on the module-- is so ludicrous as to nullify any advantage to owning a handheld. It's easier and faster just to reach into your pocket and thumb through a booklet or pocket dictionary. This thing was designed by someone who hadn't a clue as to what users want and need.
As it stands now, this module is nothing more than a backup module with a built in file management utility. It fails miserably as a means of adding additional useful memory capacity.
Perhaps this will change as apps are written to take advantage of the flash module.

I know it seems that I have DOC readers on the brain, but here goes:

MobiBook seems to work OK running off the module. It creates a little DB file in internal memory that keeps track of your place in each DOC file. So you can have the app on the card, as long as you leave those DBs on internal memory (where have we heard that before?)

MobiBook also has a unique solution for dealing with DOC files stored on the Flash module: it refuses to recognize them. Yep, when you "Show Bookshelf" to list the available DOC files, the ones located internally are there, but any on the 8MB module simply do not show up. I moved one over, and there it was. Moved back to the card, and it disappeared from the list.

Finally (and this isn't a problem with MobiBook), in the File Mover app, when MobiBook is internal, it shows as 39K. When I moved it to the card, it was 38K. Back internally, 39K again. Not a big deal, but I just had flashbacks to i-node configuration. I don't know if other apps have done this, mainly because I haven't been paying attention.

Flash RAM is flash RAM, and is not meant to replace "real" RAM. I think Handspring's DID address the memory issue (to an extent) by making the Vdx an 8 Mb model instead of 4 Mb. In the Palm line, it costs far too much to get 8 Mb. Most mortals have to settle for the 4 Mb of the IIIx. Unfortunately, as you have experienced, no amount is ever enough. Any major upgrade would mean a new OS anyway, since the max of Palm OS is 12 Mb. I suppose Handspring could build a 12 Mb Visor, but that's as far as it goes for now (even though some of the Motorola chips can handle more).

Just to put things into perspective, my first desktop could only handle 64 Kb (after some upgrades), and cost over $3000! My first modem was 300 baud (ecch!) but now I find aDSL too slow. Technology will improve but give the engineers some slack...